[tw] [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Jeremy Ruston]

Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the end
of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5.
Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the
available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as
they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.

(In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to TiddlyFox
and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox architectural
changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be significantly
updated).

One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to
TiddlyWiki's success:

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion

A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the
"export" features for 5.1.5.

I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th. I
committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've
been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings
translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently,
I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will
function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial
implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a
slow slog.

In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2
days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working
through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it
takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes,
documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of
contents.

The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last
few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as
I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the
conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of
TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from
voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable"
attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature
that hasn't been well enough communicated.

So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the
"export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important
feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it
makes little or no difference to new users.

My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here
calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate
problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep
smashing through the roadmap of planned features.

Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to ensure
that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for the
next few weeks.

Some quick googling suggests that new feature moratoriums are not uncommon:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium

I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it
further at the hangout next Tuesday,

Best wishes

Jeremy
--
Jeremy Ruston
mailto:***@gmail.com

[Stephan Hradek]

+1

[Tobias Beer]

+1

Whatever boosts your productivity and focus, Jeremy.
Definitely advisable slow down a little from time to time and do some
housekeeping before the next round.

If there are any new feature requests, they'll end up on the pile anyways.

Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.

Best wishes, Tobias.

[Alex Hough]

My thoughts:

I thought the criticism was more than an bit unfair.
It's for other members of the community to contribute to efforts according
to their will and skills.

To me it signalled a requirement for the wider community of non-coders to
organise itself a bit more.

I think there are people who would give time to organising things and these
people could focus on that freeing up those who code to get on with coding.
The new features are what makes the project exciting - documentation is
IMHO pretty good.

The reality is that for any of us who are on the journey into TiddlyWiki is
that some of the concept are difficult to grasp: its not that the
documentation is not there - its just hard stuff that reqires thinking
about.

I think it's important not to be over influenced by one critic. It's the
only recent case of a complaint - i was very surprised.

best wishes

Alex

Post by Tobias Beer
+1
Whatever boosts your productivity and focus, Jeremy.
Definitely advisable slow down a little from time to time and do some
housekeeping before the next round.
If there are any new feature requests, they'll end up on the pile anyways.
Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.
Best wishes, Tobias.
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[PMario]

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to
ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for
the next few weeks.

OK. +1
... as long as also every other non programming and programming community
member contributes to the documentation improvement.

There is a lot of work, which can be done. eg:

- New Translations with a stand alone translators/index.html TW (upcoming
5.1.5), that can be used to create translations, without any developer
voodoo
- existing languages are: English, German, Danish, Greek, French,
Italian, Japanese, Russian, Chinese (traditional and simplified)
- improvements / feedback is also possible for the existing
translations.

- With 5.1.5. it will be possible to export tiddlers in different formats.
- So it's possible to edit content with TW. - export it - and send it
to a developer (if jeremy is ok with this workflow)
- The format that works best for contributors and developers has yet to
be specified.

- For those who have a github account or are able and willing to create
one:
- see: http://tiddlywiki.com/#Improving%20TiddlyWiki%20Documentation
... it isn't that hard to use it.
- you can't destroy something, so just play with it, get up to speed
and contribute.

- At the time of writing the TiddlyWiki project at github
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5 has 910 Stars.
- That's ok, but it could be much much better. #1 has 31.700+
- The number of Stars and Forks at github are an indicator, how
prominent an open source project is.
- *So everyone who has a github account ... click the damned button!!!*
- If you don't want to use github to contribute but push the project a
little bit, create an account and
*click the damned button and carefully need the next 2 points :)
!!!*

- For those who can't afford the time but some money there is the "Inside
TiddlyWiki: The Missing Manual" IndieGoGo project
<https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/inside-tiddlywiki-the-missing-manual>
from Eric.

- For those who can afford the time and some money there is the "Inside
TiddlyWiki: The Missing Manual" IndieGoGo project
<https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/inside-tiddlywiki-the-missing-manual>
from Eric :)

So there is no excuse, not helping us!

Just my 3 cents.
have fun!
mario

[David Gifford]

Comments:

1. Don't be too hard on yourself about choices made. All of the
possibilities - documentation, new features, bug fixes, helping people who
are stuck on a use case problem - all of it is worthwhile. And while you
are so productive as to seem omnipresent at times, you are still one finite
being and can't do it all.

2. There was a book I saw in Barnes and Nobles earlier this year, I think
it may have been called The One Thing, or something similar. But the
author's point was that we should focus our efforts on the one thing that
will make everything else either easier or unnecessary. I think a clear
roadmap for new users, and everyone, on where to find this (e.g. Plugin
list mechanism) and how to use that (documentation and examples) is
something that could save you and others time and energy later, because you
won't have to spend as much time explaining things, you can just paste a
link to the instructions.

3. I am glad Eric is doing his book series, and I have already donated
because it will be really valuable. And while I am currently too busy to do
much writing for you - my work responsibilities grew dramatically starting
in September - I did manage to sneak in some documentation yesterday.
Hopefully that was helpful, though it probably needs some cleaning up. And
hopefully here and there I can help you out some more, either with
documentation or at least reviewing what there is and writing up
suggestions of areas where documentation is needed or needs to be clearer.
And others have done some how tos that may also help you see what is
needed. Anyway, my point is that you are not alone. I second the others in
giving a +1 to your plan to put the brakes on new features and do some
consolidating and explaining of what is already there, but I also second
those who say it should fall primarily on us, the TiddlyWiki community.

4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part would list the
plugins that are officially sanctioned and compatible with the latest
release. The bottom part could be a growing list of webpages where
individuals have stored there plugins and goodies they have created for TW
but that may or may not continue to be compatible.

5. Don't feel too bad about TiddlyWiki looking like voodoo. It is a highly
customizable tool with limitless functional possibilities that positively
screams at the user, "Create something totally new with me! Combine my
filter operators and features in a new way!". I doubt the documentation
will ever be sufficient to explain every possible use case. I have played
around with it quite a bit, and I still scratch my head at things like text
references and action-this or action-that. Remember that TiddlyWiki classic
was also like voodoo. The learning curve was high, which is why I created
TW for the rest of us and TiddlyVault.

6. For me, a really, really long list of examples of filters and widgets
would go a long way in helping us learn the unique language(s) of
TiddlyWiki. Seriously, these are languages for which there is no full
grammar textbook and the number of native speakers are limited. Even when I
know what I want to do and get the general idea of what a widget or list
filter is for, I have trouble writing [tag[tags]tagged[!is]!all[sort]] so
that it works like I see it in my imagination. For TiddlyWiki classic I
constantly returned to Abego Extensions because it had a long list of
possible forEachFilter examples. Seeing and comparing the examples was how
I learned to use it. But with TW5 there still aren't enough examples out
there, so I have to fiddle and fiddle and finally get on the Google group
and just ask. So a long list of representative examples would go a long way
toward reducing our frustration and yours.

Hope these comments are encouraging and helpful. Blessings to you and to
everyone working on these issues.

Dave

[David Gifford]

One other thing...there is a lot of helpful stuff on the hangouts, and
Mario has done an awesome job of writing annotations for them. But still,
there area almost 70 of them now, most of them two hours long. One possible
help for TiddlyWiki users might be a *topical index of the Hangouts*. Not
every single item in every hangout, mind you, but where Jeremy shows and
explains a feature in a Hangout, or someone shows and explains their
plugin, the index could give a link to the time at which that discussion
starts. Just a thought.

Examples

JSXGraph Widget -

Tabbed TOC -

(not
actually sure if I got the links correctly, but you get the idea)

Dave

[Alex Hough]

great points Dave and Mario

Alex

Post by David Gifford
One other thing...there is a lot of helpful stuff on the hangouts, and
Mario has done an awesome job of writing annotations for them. But still,
there area almost 70 of them now, most of them two hours long. One possible
help for TiddlyWiki users might be a *topical index of the Hangouts*. Not
every single item in every hangout, mind you, but where Jeremy shows and
explains a feature in a Hangout, or someone shows and explains their
plugin, the index could give a link to the time at which that discussion
starts. Just a thought.
Examples
JSXGraph Widget - http://youtu.be/Xj7PNlUB5TA
Tabbed TOC - http://youtu.be/NlOSyUXAtoA (not
actually sure if I got the links correctly, but you get the idea)
Dave

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[PMario]

@Jeremy,
Could you set the "sticky flag" for this post for some time?
-m

[HansWobbe]

+1

[Julio Peña]

+1

In the heat of battle a good general knows when it time to resurvey the
situation. I believe that Tiddlywiki5's development has been going at an
accelerated pace ever since it came out of beta. As for myself, I'd the
time is right to take a deep breath and stand back a bit.


Best regards to all,

Julio

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the end
of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5.
Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the
available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as
they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
(In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to TiddlyFox
and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox architectural
changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be significantly
updated).
One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the
"export" features for 5.1.5.
I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th. I
committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've
been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings
translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently,
I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will
function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial
implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a
slow slog.
In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2
days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working
through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it
takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes,
documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of
contents.
The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last
few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as
I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the
conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of
TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from
voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable"
attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature
that hasn't been well enough communicated.
So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the
"export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important
feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it
makes little or no difference to new users.
My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here
calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate
problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep
smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to
ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for
the next few weeks.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it
further at the hangout next Tuesday,
Best wishes
Jeremy
--
Jeremy Ruston

[Ton Gerner]

+1

Post by Julio Peña
+1
In the heat of battle a good general knows when it time to resurvey the
situation. I believe that Tiddlywiki5's development has been going at an
accelerated pace ever since it came out of beta. As for myself, I'd the
time is right to take a deep breath and stand back a bit.
Best regards to all,
Julio

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the
end of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5.
Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the
available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as
they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
(In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to
TiddlyFox and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox
architectural changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be
significantly updated).
One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the
"export" features for 5.1.5.
I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th.
I committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've
been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings
translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently,
I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will
function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial
implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a
slow slog.
In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2
days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working
through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it
takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes,
documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of
contents.
The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last
few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as
I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the
conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of
TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from
voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable"
attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature
that hasn't been well enough communicated.
So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the
"export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important
feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it
makes little or no difference to new users.
My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here
calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate
problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep
smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to
ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for
the next few weeks.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it
further at the hangout next Tuesday,
Best wishes
Jeremy
--
Jeremy Ruston

[Ed Dixon]

I feel it should be expected. I am surprised you haven't decided to take at
least a month off and celebrate TW5 leaving the nest :) It allows the smoke
to clear, noobs like me to catch up on basic concepts and features. I am
sure plugin development will continue to move forward within our community
here but you already do so much for us! Honestly for me it will be nice to
work with a non moving target for a while. Will 1.1.5 and the export
feature make release before the moratorium begins?

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the end
of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5.
Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the
available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as
they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
(In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to TiddlyFox
and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox architectural
changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be significantly
updated).
One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the
"export" features for 5.1.5.
I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th. I
committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've
been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings
translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently,
I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will
function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial
implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a
slow slog.
In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2
days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working
through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it
takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes,
documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of
contents.
The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last
few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as
I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the
conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of
TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from
voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable"
attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature
that hasn't been well enough communicated.
So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the
"export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important
feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it
makes little or no difference to new users.
My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here
calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate
problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep
smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to
ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for
the next few weeks.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it
further at the hangout next Tuesday,
Best wishes
Jeremy
--
Jeremy Ruston

[Jon]

I didn't like the recent post that provoked the review - it seemed very
ungrateful to me.

I use tiddlywiki every day and it has revolutionised my study and I'm just
thankful for whatever improvements I can pick up along the way.

As far as I'm concerned it's a work in progress and people should accept
that and focus on the benefits rather than any current drawbacks.

Just my two-penneth worth.

Jon

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the end
of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5.
Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the
available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as
they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
(In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to TiddlyFox
and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox architectural
changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be significantly
updated).
One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the
"export" features for 5.1.5.
I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th. I
committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've
been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings
translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently,
I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will
function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial
implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a
slow slog.
In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2
days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working
through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it
takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes,
documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of
contents.
The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last
few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as
I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the
conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of
TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from
voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable"
attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature
that hasn't been well enough communicated.
So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the
"export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important
feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it
makes little or no difference to new users.
My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here
calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate
problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep
smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to
ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for
the next few weeks.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it
further at the hangout next Tuesday,
Best wishes
Jeremy
--
Jeremy Ruston

[Ed Dixon]

I do agree Jon but at the same time if I understand what transpired it was
meant as constructive criticism and upon reflection Jeremy feels it is in
the best interest of the project to slow new feature development down a bit
and refocus his efforts. As a new comer I have to admit I am drowning in
the flexibility and the number of features already available much less
keeping up with all of the new features being added.

Post by Jon
I didn't like the recent post that provoked the review - it seemed very
ungrateful to me.
I use tiddlywiki every day and it has revolutionised my study and I'm just
thankful for whatever improvements I can pick up along the way.
As far as I'm concerned it's a work in progress and people should accept
that and focus on the benefits rather than any current drawbacks.
Just my two-penneth worth.
Jon

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the
end of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5.
Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the
available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as
they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
(In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to
TiddlyFox and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox
architectural changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be
significantly updated).
One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the
"export" features for 5.1.5.
I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th.
I committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've
been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings
translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently,
I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will
function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial
implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a
slow slog.
In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2
days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working
through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it
takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes,
documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of
contents.
The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last
few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as
I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the
conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of
TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from
voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable"
attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature
that hasn't been well enough communicated.
So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the
"export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important
feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it
makes little or no difference to new users.
My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here
calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate
problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep
smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to
ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for
the next few weeks.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it
further at the hangout next Tuesday,
Best wishes
Jeremy
--
Jeremy Ruston

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[Mat]

My +1 shouldn't surprise much.

@everyone - Don't let my views distract you from doing what you love doing
and your personal goals with TW. I think that in non-profit / no-pay
projects the common, and necessary, denominator for anyone doing anything
is enjoyment.

<:-)

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the end
of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5.
Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the
available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as
they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
(In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to TiddlyFox
and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox architectural
changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be significantly
updated).
One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the
"export" features for 5.1.5.
I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th. I
committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've
been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings
translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently,
I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will
function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial
implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a
slow slog.
In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2
days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working
through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it
takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes,
documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of
contents.
The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last
few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as
I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the
conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of
TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from
voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable"
attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature
that hasn't been well enough communicated.
So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the
"export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important
feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it
makes little or no difference to new users.
My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here
calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate
problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep
smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to
ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for
the next few weeks.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it
further at the hangout next Tuesday,
Best wishes
Jeremy
--
Jeremy Ruston

[Richard Smith]

+1

@PMario

"... as long as also every other non programming and programming community
member contributes to the documentation improvement. "

Hi Mario,

Is there any chance we could coordinate this effort somehow? I am happy to
lend my time to the project but I'm a bit unsure as to where to start. Some
of the improvements I would like to make don't involve re-writing the text
of individual tiddlers but re-arranging and adding tiddlers to make things
clearer.

For example - GettingStarted really just contains information about
downloading and saving on different platforms whereas I think this could be
moved to a tiddler called "Downloading and Saving" and getting started
could be a much less imposing list. "1. Download TW 2. Create some
content and check that you can save it 3. Explore the Basic editing
features"

The other problem I'd like to address is how we give people more relevant
results from the search box. For example, I'm a new user who's figured out
basic linking and tagging and now I'd like to make some lists. If I type
'list' into the search box it doesn't help me much to find what I'm looking
for.

Perhaps we could have a 'docs' edition with some extra magic in it to
prioritise content according to relevance. For example, we would put the
ListWidget tiddler at the top of the above search results.

If you have seen something specific that you think can be improved in the
docs, perhaps we could work on it together?

Regards,
Richard

[Jed Carty]

I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and make
a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect
explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good
at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we
can submit for inclusion on the main page.

Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow people to make
small updates or suggestions for the documentation without having to do the
entire tiddler by themselves. Using github isn't hard, but this may
encourage more people to help out. That is if multi-user wikis are a viable
solution, if not we would need someone to manage it, which may not be
better than just using github the way it is now.

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the end
of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5.
Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the
available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as
they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
(In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to TiddlyFox
and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox architectural
changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be significantly
updated).
One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the
"export" features for 5.1.5.
I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th. I
committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've
been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings
translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently,
I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will
function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial
implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a
slow slog.
In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2
days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working
through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it
takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes,
documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of
contents.
The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last
few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as
I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the
conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of
TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from
voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable"
attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature
that hasn't been well enough communicated.
So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the
"export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important
feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it
makes little or no difference to new users.
My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here
calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate
problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep
smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to
ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for
the next few weeks.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it
further at the hangout next Tuesday,
Best wishes
Jeremy
--
Jeremy Ruston

[Mat]

Post by Jed Carty
I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and
make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect
explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good
at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we
can submit for inclusion on the main page.

That sounds easier than github pull requests (if I'm using the term
correctly) but there will be a problem with version management i.e an
upload overwrites the latest version of the whole wiki potentially
overwriting something that had been contributed just recently.

Tiddlyspace would probably work better in this respect as each tiddler is
saved separately. There could be a policy that you're not allowed to
manipulate, or at least not delete, someone elses tiddler but instead e.g
append a new tiddler with your updated version. Maybe www.tiddlywiki.org,
which actually is on tiddlyspace and already open for edit, could be
modified to suit this ( @tobibeer )

However... the greater crux is that documentation is still very demanding,
effectively limiting it to the few individuals who'll contribute. And while
a few individuals can accomplish great things, I think documentation for TW
is a big task. Heck, one of our *super* contributors estimates it will take
3 months of continuous writing to get the most basic questions explained
well and he is super qualified on all matters. link
<https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/inside-tiddlywiki-the-missing-manual>.

I outlined an idea in the notorious thread (linked to in Jeremys post
above) that takes another approach to documentation. The work to set up
system that is probably much more limited than the work needed for
documentation (which is open ended more or less) - but, of course, few *can*
implement it and we can't expect anyone to *actually* implement it.
(Personally, I'd gladly help support such a project financially. I believe
it has potential to bring temendous value to the community. Anyone
interested?)

I also started another thread
<https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#%21topic/tiddlywiki/K9O5eBkIuW0>
with, if technically possible, is yet aother completely differnt take on
what could be used for documentation contributions.

Another question is of course what would bring the most value to TW. I'm
not certain it's the documentation issue, important as that is. Then again,
in practice people will (and should) only do what they like in an unpaid
project :-)

<:-)

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers trying to
create link drops.

Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special thread on
this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki systems track
history, so changes can be rolled back when something useful has been
overwritten.

I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem is that
it's the same system of review for documentation as for code. Which means
that you may have to wait a week or so before changes get applied, Sure,
CODE needs to be thoroughly vetted so that TW doesn't break. But, unlike
code, poor documentation is usually better than NO documentation, and it
can be peer-reviewed and tweaked as time goes along. It's an odd quirk of
human psychology that people tend to like to correct things that are
already in place rather than creating new content in the first place. So
getting something in place quickly (even if not 100% perfect) is more
important than getting it publisher-ready on the first draft.

Mark

Post by Jed Carty
I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and
make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect
explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good
at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we
can submit for inclusion on the main page.
Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow people to make
small updates or suggestions for the documentation without having to do the
entire tiddler by themselves. Using github isn't hard, but this may
encourage more people to help out. That is if multi-user wikis are a viable
solution, if not we would need someone to manage it, which may not be
better than just using github the way it is now.

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the
end of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5.
Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the
available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as
they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
(In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to
TiddlyFox and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox
architectural changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be
significantly updated).
One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the
"export" features for 5.1.5.
I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th.
I committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've
been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings
translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently,
I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will
function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial
implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a
slow slog.
In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2
days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working
through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it
takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes,
documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of
contents.
The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last
few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as
I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the
conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of
TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from
voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable"
attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature
that hasn't been well enough communicated.
So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the
"export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important
feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it
makes little or no difference to new users.
My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here
calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate
problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep
smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to
ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for
the next few weeks.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it
further at the hangout next Tuesday,
Best wishes
Jeremy
--
Jeremy Ruston

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers trying to
create link drops.

Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special thread on
this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki systems track
history, so changes can be rolled back when something useful has been
overwritten.

I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem is that
it's the same system of review for documentation as for code. Which means
that you may have to wait a week or so before changes get applied, Sure,
CODE needs to be thoroughly vetted so that TW doesn't break. But, unlike
code, poor documentation is usually better than NO documentation, and it
can be peer-reviewed and tweaked as time goes along. It's an odd quirk of
human psychology that people tend to like to correct things that are
already in place rather than creating new content in the first place. So
getting something in place quickly (even if not 100% perfect) is more
important than getting it publisher-ready on the first draft.

Mark

Post by Jed Carty
I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and
make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect
explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good
at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we
can submit for inclusion on the main page.
Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow people to make
small updates or suggestions for the documentation without having to do the
entire tiddler by themselves. Using github isn't hard, but this may
encourage more people to help out. That is if multi-user wikis are a viable
solution, if not we would need someone to manage it, which may not be
better than just using github the way it is now.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Thanks everyone for their contributions. There are a bunch of good
suggestions in the thread which I'll try to pick up in the hangout on
Tuesday.

A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process for the
documentation. I have a couple of thoughts:

* We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along the lines of
tiddlywiki.org - it's a proven way to work. It would be good to try out
TW5's support for TiddlySpace in a multiuser setting (since it's not been
done before I think there may be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
* We should support documentation contributions by people taking a copy of
tiddlywiki.com onto tiddlyspot and making their edits there. I could easily
build a batch file that pulls down their changes and applies them to the
repo, so that I can convert their changes to a pull request (I don't think
there's any avoiding needing a moderation step for tiddlywiki.com)
* An alternative workflow for accepting those contributions would be to
support visual diffing in the import manager

I've also got a couple of clarifications.

Post by Tobias Beer
Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.

We don't want to discourage people from suggesting and discussing new
features, but lets see how it goes and I can add a banner to the "new
issue" page if needed.

Post by Tobias Beer
4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part would list

the plugins that are officially sanctioned and compatible with the latest
release. The bottom part could be a growing list of webpages where
individuals have stored there plugins and goodies they have created for TW
but that may or may not continue to be compatible.

That's pretty much what we've got:

* Plugins listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Plugins are the officially
maintained and distributed plugins. They will be automatically upgraded
when using http://tiddlywiki.com/upgrade.html
* Community plugins are listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Resources

Perhaps we should maintain a catalogue of community plugins that is
separate from the general resources list.

Post by Tobias Beer
Will 1.1.5 and the export feature make release before the moratorium

begins?

Yes, the moratorium would start after 5.1.5's release.

Best wishes

Jeremy


On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 6:43 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <

Post by Tobias Beer
Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers trying to
create link drops.
Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special thread
on this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki systems track
history, so changes can be rolled back when something useful has been
overwritten.
I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem is that
it's the same system of review for documentation as for code. Which means
that you may have to wait a week or so before changes get applied, Sure,
CODE needs to be thoroughly vetted so that TW doesn't break. But, unlike
code, poor documentation is usually better than NO documentation, and it
can be peer-reviewed and tweaked as time goes along. It's an odd quirk of
human psychology that people tend to like to correct things that are
already in place rather than creating new content in the first place. So
getting something in place quickly (even if not 100% perfect) is more
important than getting it publisher-ready on the first draft.
Mark

Post by Jed Carty
I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and
make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect
explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good
at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we
can submit for inclusion on the main page.
Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow people to make
small updates or suggestions for the documentation without having to do the
entire tiddler by themselves. Using github isn't hard, but this may
encourage more people to help out. That is if multi-user wikis are a viable
solution, if not we would need someone to manage it, which may not be
better than just using github the way it is now.
--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
Jeremy Ruston
mailto:***@gmail.com

[David Gifford]

And 5.1.5 will be released this week, right Jeremy? I am really eager to
have this update. It's got some great stuff in it. Also I am eager because
I have used some of the define newhere bits you emailed me, but they don't
seem to work in 5.1.4, only in my copy of the prerelease of 5.1.5. This new
version HAS been in the works for a while, so don't keep us in suspense
forever! :-)

Dave

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Thanks everyone for their contributions. There are a bunch of good
suggestions in the thread which I'll try to pick up in the hangout on
Tuesday.
A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process for the
* We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along the lines
of tiddlywiki.org - it's a proven way to work. It would be good to try
out TW5's support for TiddlySpace in a multiuser setting (since it's not
been done before I think there may be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
* We should support documentation contributions by people taking a copy of
tiddlywiki.com onto tiddlyspot and making their edits there. I could
easily build a batch file that pulls down their changes and applies them to
the repo, so that I can convert their changes to a pull request (I don't
think there's any avoiding needing a moderation step for tiddlywiki.com)
* An alternative workflow for accepting those contributions would be to
support visual diffing in the import manager
I've also got a couple of clarifications.

Post by Tobias Beer
Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.

We don't want to discourage people from suggesting and discussing new
features, but lets see how it goes and I can add a banner to the "new
issue" page if needed.

Post by Tobias Beer
4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part would list

the plugins that are officially sanctioned and compatible with the latest
release. The bottom part could be a growing list of webpages where
individuals have stored there plugins and goodies they have created for TW
but that may or may not continue to be compatible.
* Plugins listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Plugins are the officially
maintained and distributed plugins. They will be automatically upgraded
when using http://tiddlywiki.com/upgrade.html
* Community plugins are listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Resources
Perhaps we should maintain a catalogue of community plugins that is
separate from the general resources list.

Post by Tobias Beer
Will 1.1.5 and the export feature make release before the moratorium

begins?
Yes, the moratorium would start after 5.1.5's release.
Best wishes
Jeremy
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 6:43 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <

Post by Tobias Beer
Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers trying to
create link drops.
Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special thread
on this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki systems track
history, so changes can be rolled back when something useful has been
overwritten.
I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem is that
it's the same system of review for documentation as for code. Which means
that you may have to wait a week or so before changes get applied, Sure,
CODE needs to be thoroughly vetted so that TW doesn't break. But, unlike
code, poor documentation is usually better than NO documentation, and it
can be peer-reviewed and tweaked as time goes along. It's an odd quirk of
human psychology that people tend to like to correct things that are
already in place rather than creating new content in the first place. So
getting something in place quickly (even if not 100% perfect) is more
important than getting it publisher-ready on the first draft.
Mark

Post by Jed Carty
I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and
make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect
explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good
at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we
can submit for inclusion on the main page.
Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow people to make
small updates or suggestions for the documentation without having to do the
entire tiddler by themselves. Using github isn't hard, but this may
encourage more people to help out. That is if multi-user wikis are a viable
solution, if not we would need someone to manage it, which may not be
better than just using github the way it is now.
--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
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--
Jeremy Ruston
--
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David Gifford
Christian Reformed World Missions, Mexico City

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Dave

Post by David Gifford
And 5.1.5 will be released this week, right Jeremy?

Yes, there's nothing else big planned, but it'll still be a couple of days
before the release. In particular there's quite a few contributions
awaiting merging on github.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

Post by David Gifford
And 5.1.5 will be released this week, right Jeremy? I am really eager to
have this update. It's got some great stuff in it. Also I am eager because
I have used some of the define newhere bits you emailed me, but they don't
seem to work in 5.1.4, only in my copy of the prerelease of 5.1.5. This new
version HAS been in the works for a while, so don't keep us in suspense
forever! :-)
Dave

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Thanks everyone for their contributions. There are a bunch of good
suggestions in the thread which I'll try to pick up in the hangout on
Tuesday.
A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process for the
* We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along the lines
of tiddlywiki.org - it's a proven way to work. It would be good to try
out TW5's support for TiddlySpace in a multiuser setting (since it's not
been done before I think there may be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
* We should support documentation contributions by people taking a copy
of tiddlywiki.com onto tiddlyspot and making their edits there. I could
easily build a batch file that pulls down their changes and applies them to
the repo, so that I can convert their changes to a pull request (I don't
think there's any avoiding needing a moderation step for tiddlywiki.com)
* An alternative workflow for accepting those contributions would be to
support visual diffing in the import manager
I've also got a couple of clarifications.

Post by Tobias Beer
Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.

We don't want to discourage people from suggesting and discussing new
features, but lets see how it goes and I can add a banner to the "new
issue" page if needed.

Post by Tobias Beer
4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part would list

the plugins that are officially sanctioned and compatible with the latest
release. The bottom part could be a growing list of webpages where
individuals have stored there plugins and goodies they have created for TW
but that may or may not continue to be compatible.
* Plugins listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Plugins are the officially
maintained and distributed plugins. They will be automatically upgraded
when using http://tiddlywiki.com/upgrade.html
* Community plugins are listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Resources
Perhaps we should maintain a catalogue of community plugins that is
separate from the general resources list.

Post by Tobias Beer
Will 1.1.5 and the export feature make release before the moratorium

begins?
Yes, the moratorium would start after 5.1.5's release.
Best wishes
Jeremy
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 6:43 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <

Post by Tobias Beer
Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers trying to
create link drops.
Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special thread
on this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki systems track
history, so changes can be rolled back when something useful has been
overwritten.
I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem is that
it's the same system of review for documentation as for code. Which means
that you may have to wait a week or so before changes get applied, Sure,
CODE needs to be thoroughly vetted so that TW doesn't break. But, unlike
code, poor documentation is usually better than NO documentation, and it
can be peer-reviewed and tweaked as time goes along. It's an odd quirk of
human psychology that people tend to like to correct things that are
already in place rather than creating new content in the first place. So
getting something in place quickly (even if not 100% perfect) is more
important than getting it publisher-ready on the first draft.
Mark

Post by Jed Carty
I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and
make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect
explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good
at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we
can submit for inclusion on the main page.
Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow people to make
small updates or suggestions for the documentation without having to do the
entire tiddler by themselves. Using github isn't hard, but this may
encourage more people to help out. That is if multi-user wikis are a viable
solution, if not we would need someone to manage it, which may not be
better than just using github the way it is now.
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[David Gifford]

Yay! Thanks, Jeremy

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Hi Dave

Post by David Gifford
And 5.1.5 will be released this week, right Jeremy?

Yes, there's nothing else big planned, but it'll still be a couple of days
before the release. In particular there's quite a few contributions
awaiting merging on github.
Best wishes
Jeremy.

Post by David Gifford
And 5.1.5 will be released this week, right Jeremy? I am really eager to
have this update. It's got some great stuff in it. Also I am eager because
I have used some of the define newhere bits you emailed me, but they don't
seem to work in 5.1.4, only in my copy of the prerelease of 5.1.5. This new
version HAS been in the works for a while, so don't keep us in suspense
forever! :-)
Dave

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Thanks everyone for their contributions. There are a bunch of good
suggestions in the thread which I'll try to pick up in the hangout on
Tuesday.
A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process for the
* We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along the lines
of tiddlywiki.org - it's a proven way to work. It would be good to try
out TW5's support for TiddlySpace in a multiuser setting (since it's not
been done before I think there may be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
* We should support documentation contributions by people taking a copy
of tiddlywiki.com onto tiddlyspot and making their edits there. I could
easily build a batch file that pulls down their changes and applies them to
the repo, so that I can convert their changes to a pull request (I don't
think there's any avoiding needing a moderation step for tiddlywiki.com)
* An alternative workflow for accepting those contributions would be to
support visual diffing in the import manager
I've also got a couple of clarifications.

Post by Tobias Beer
Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.

We don't want to discourage people from suggesting and discussing new
features, but lets see how it goes and I can add a banner to the "new
issue" page if needed.

Post by Tobias Beer
4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part would

list the plugins that are officially sanctioned and compatible with the
latest release. The bottom part could be a growing list of webpages where
individuals have stored there plugins and goodies they have created for TW
but that may or may not continue to be compatible.
* Plugins listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Plugins are the officially
maintained and distributed plugins. They will be automatically upgraded
when using http://tiddlywiki.com/upgrade.html
* Community plugins are listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Resources
Perhaps we should maintain a catalogue of community plugins that is
separate from the general resources list.

Post by Tobias Beer
Will 1.1.5 and the export feature make release before the moratorium

begins?
Yes, the moratorium would start after 5.1.5's release.
Best wishes
Jeremy
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 6:43 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <

Post by Tobias Beer
Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers trying to
create link drops.
Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special
thread on this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki systems
track history, so changes can be rolled back when something useful has been
overwritten.
I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem is
that it's the same system of review for documentation as for code. Which
means that you may have to wait a week or so before changes get applied,
Sure, CODE needs to be thoroughly vetted so that TW doesn't break. But,
unlike code, poor documentation is usually better than NO documentation,
and it can be peer-reviewed and tweaked as time goes along. It's an odd
quirk of human psychology that people tend to like to correct things that
are already in place rather than creating new content in the first place.
So getting something in place quickly (even if not 100% perfect) is more
important than getting it publisher-ready on the first draft.
Mark

Post by Jed Carty
I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and
make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect
explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good
at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we
can submit for inclusion on the main page.
Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow people to
make small updates or suggestions for the documentation without having to
do the entire tiddler by themselves. Using github isn't hard, but this may
encourage more people to help out. That is if multi-user wikis are a viable
solution, if not we would need someone to manage it, which may not be
better than just using github the way it is now.
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[Erwan]

Hi everyone,

as this is my first post here, I'd like to start by thanking Jeremy and
everyone who contributes to TW, from core development to helping make
the community so engaging. I've discovered TW only a few months ago (I
was lucky to arrive just for the birth of the official TW5), and I've
been hooked by both the great tool that TW is and the good atmosphere of
knowledge sharing in the community.

I agree with Jeremy and everybody in this thread that improving the
documentation process (including the great potential for community
knowledge) becomes more and more important, especially in the
perspective of attracting newcomers.

In general my thoughts on the topic are similar to what most people have
said here. I would like to suggest maybe a couple of points that I think
deserve some attention. Indeed, people with technical skills tend to
focus on the technical side of a problem, and obviously there are highly
skilled people here ;) While this is important, there can be other
angles to look at:

* For example, about the fact that some people are not comfortable using
github, a very simple way to overcome the problem would be to have a few
volunteers who know git who would receive the contributions and make the
pull request for them. I guess something similar could be done for other
things, like translating, so that someone who can translate doesn't need
to have any technical skills.

* Imho, one of the problems with contributing to the official
documentation is that there is no clear guidelines about the structure
or the type of content. I think that it would be very helpful to think
about a detailed plan and identify the missing parts: this way it would
be easier for people who want to contribute to know what to do, and
eventually for newcomers to find their way in the documentation.

I tried to develop these ideas and to imagine how things could work
globally in a more detailed proposition, in case that helps:
http://tw-doc-ideas.tiddlyspot.com

Regards,
Erwan

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Thanks everyone for their contributions. There are a bunch of good
suggestions in the thread which I'll try to pick up in the hangout on
Tuesday.
A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process for the
* We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along the
lines of tiddlywiki.org <http://tiddlywiki.org> - it's a proven way to
work. It would be good to try out TW5's support for TiddlySpace in a
multiuser setting (since it's not been done before I think there may
be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
* We should support documentation contributions by people taking a
copy of tiddlywiki.com <http://tiddlywiki.com> onto tiddlyspot and
making their edits there. I could easily build a batch file that pulls
down their changes and applies them to the repo, so that I can convert
their changes to a pull request (I don't think there's any avoiding
needing a moderation step for tiddlywiki.com <http://tiddlywiki.com>)
* An alternative workflow for accepting those contributions would be
to support visual diffing in the import manager
I've also got a couple of clarifications.

Post by Tobias Beer
Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.

We don't want to discourage people from suggesting and discussing new
features, but lets see how it goes and I can add a banner to the "new
issue" page if needed.

Post by Tobias Beer
4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part would

list the plugins that are officially sanctioned and compatible with
the latest release. The bottom part could be a growing list of
webpages where individuals have stored there plugins and goodies they
have created for TW but that may or may not continue to be compatible.
* Plugins listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Plugins are the officially
maintained and distributed plugins. They will be automatically
upgraded when using http://tiddlywiki.com/upgrade.html
* Community plugins are listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Resources
Perhaps we should maintain a catalogue of community plugins that is
separate from the general resources list.

Post by Tobias Beer
Will 1.1.5 and the export feature make release before the moratorium

begins?
Yes, the moratorium would start after 5.1.5's release.
Best wishes
Jeremy
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 6:43 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers
trying to create link drops.
Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special
thread on this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki
systems track history, so changes can be rolled back when
something useful has been overwritten.
I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem
is that it's the same system of review for documentation as for
code. Which means that you may have to wait a week or so before
changes get applied, Sure, CODE needs to be thoroughly vetted so
that TW doesn't break. But, unlike code, poor documentation is
usually better than NO documentation, and it can be peer-reviewed
and tweaked as time goes along. It's an odd quirk of human
psychology that people tend to like to correct things that are
already in place rather than creating new content in the first
place. So getting something in place quickly (even if not 100%
perfect) is more important than getting it publisher-ready on the
first draft.
Mark
I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on
tiddlyspot and make a list of topics people want documentation
for the most, then collect explanations and examples from
people and hopefully get someone who is good at technical
writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we
can submit for inclusion on the main page.
Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow
people to make small updates or suggestions for the
documentation without having to do the entire tiddler by
themselves. Using github isn't hard, but this may encourage
more people to help out. That is if multi-user wikis are a
viable solution, if not we would need someone to manage it,
which may not be better than just using github the way it is now.
--
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[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Erwan

Post by Erwan
I tried to develop these ideas and to imagine how things could work

globally in a more detailed proposition, in case that helps:
http://tw-doc-ideas.tiddlyspot.com

Terrific stuff, thank you Erwan. You've done a great job of summarising the
situation and the ideas that are floating around.

Perhaps some of your material could be structured as a pull request to
start fleshing out the contribution guidelines in tw5.com?

I realised earlier when I made the following changes that the "house style"
of tiddlywiki.com is not explicitly stated, providing another hurdle for
contributors:

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/commit/4134392841862830fd4c5cf3b3d6512b30bc885f

Best wishes

Jeremy

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/commit/4134392841862830fd4c5cf3b3d6512b30bc885f

Post by Erwan
Hi everyone,
as this is my first post here, I'd like to start by thanking Jeremy and
everyone who contributes to TW, from core development to helping make the
community so engaging. I've discovered TW only a few months ago (I was
lucky to arrive just for the birth of the official TW5), and I've been
hooked by both the great tool that TW is and the good atmosphere of
knowledge sharing in the community.
I agree with Jeremy and everybody in this thread that improving the
documentation process (including the great potential for community
knowledge) becomes more and more important, especially in the perspective
of attracting newcomers.
In general my thoughts on the topic are similar to what most people have
said here. I would like to suggest maybe a couple of points that I think
deserve some attention. Indeed, people with technical skills tend to focus
on the technical side of a problem, and obviously there are highly skilled
people here ;) While this is important, there can be other angles to look
* For example, about the fact that some people are not comfortable using
github, a very simple way to overcome the problem would be to have a few
volunteers who know git who would receive the contributions and make the
pull request for them. I guess something similar could be done for other
things, like translating, so that someone who can translate doesn't need to
have any technical skills.
* Imho, one of the problems with contributing to the official
documentation is that there is no clear guidelines about the structure or
the type of content. I think that it would be very helpful to think about a
detailed plan and identify the missing parts: this way it would be easier
for people who want to contribute to know what to do, and eventually for
newcomers to find their way in the documentation.
I tried to develop these ideas and to imagine how things could work
http://tw-doc-ideas.tiddlyspot.com
Regards,
Erwan
Thanks everyone for their contributions. There are a bunch of good
suggestions in the thread which I'll try to pick up in the hangout on
Tuesday.
A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process for the
* We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along the lines
of tiddlywiki.org - it's a proven way to work. It would be good to try
out TW5's support for TiddlySpace in a multiuser setting (since it's not
been done before I think there may be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
* We should support documentation contributions by people taking a copy of
tiddlywiki.com onto tiddlyspot and making their edits there. I could
easily build a batch file that pulls down their changes and applies them to
the repo, so that I can convert their changes to a pull request (I don't
think there's any avoiding needing a moderation step for tiddlywiki.com)
* An alternative workflow for accepting those contributions would be to
support visual diffing in the import manager
I've also got a couple of clarifications.

Post by Tobias Beer
Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.

We don't want to discourage people from suggesting and discussing new
features, but lets see how it goes and I can add a banner to the "new
issue" page if needed.

Post by Tobias Beer
4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part would

list the plugins that are officially sanctioned and compatible with the
latest release. The bottom part could be a growing list of webpages where
individuals have stored there plugins and goodies they have created for TW
but that may or may not continue to be compatible.
* Plugins listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Plugins are the officially
maintained and distributed plugins. They will be automatically upgraded
when using http://tiddlywiki.com/upgrade.html
* Community plugins are listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Resources
Perhaps we should maintain a catalogue of community plugins that is
separate from the general resources list.

Post by Tobias Beer
Will 1.1.5 and the export feature make release before the moratorium

begins?
Yes, the moratorium would start after 5.1.5's release.
Best wishes
Jeremy
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 6:43 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <

Post by Tobias Beer
Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers trying to
create link drops.
Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special thread
on this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki systems track
history, so changes can be rolled back when something useful has been
overwritten.
I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem is that
it's the same system of review for documentation as for code. Which means
that you may have to wait a week or so before changes get applied, Sure,
CODE needs to be thoroughly vetted so that TW doesn't break. But, unlike
code, poor documentation is usually better than NO documentation, and it
can be peer-reviewed and tweaked as time goes along. It's an odd quirk of
human psychology that people tend to like to correct things that are
already in place rather than creating new content in the first place. So
getting something in place quickly (even if not 100% perfect) is more
important than getting it publisher-ready on the first draft.
Mark

Post by Jed Carty
I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and
make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect
explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good
at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we
can submit for inclusion on the main page.
Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow people to make
small updates or suggestions for the documentation without having to do the
entire tiddler by themselves. Using github isn't hard, but this may
encourage more people to help out. That is if multi-user wikis are a viable
solution, if not we would need someone to manage it, which may not be
better than just using github the way it is now.
--

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[Erwan]

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Hi Erwan

Post by Erwan
I tried to develop these ideas and to imagine how things could work

http://tw-doc-ideas.tiddlyspot.com
Terrific stuff, thank you Erwan. You've done a great job of
summarising the situation and the ideas that are floating around.
Perhaps some of your material could be structured as a pull request to
start fleshing out the contribution guidelines in tw5.com
<http://tw5.com>?

Thank you Jeremy,

I'd be happy to do it, but I don't know exactly how: I'm relatively
familiar with git but not so much with TW node.js version, and the
tw5.com edition looks like a complex case of node.js (with tiddlers in
different subdirectories). I was able to open it locally under node.js
but not to save my changes, is there something special to do?

About the content: currently it is written like a proposition (with some
"I think", "in my opinion", ...), should I leave it like that or rewrite
it another way? And which parts are interesting/useful?

Regards
Erwan

Post by Jeremy Ruston
I realised earlier when I made the following changes that the "house
style" of tiddlywiki.com <http://tiddlywiki.com> is not explicitly
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/commit/4134392841862830fd4c5cf3b3d6512b30bc885f
Best wishes
Jeremy
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/commit/4134392841862830fd4c5cf3b3d6512b30bc885f
Hi everyone,
as this is my first post here, I'd like to start by thanking
Jeremy and everyone who contributes to TW, from core development
to helping make the community so engaging. I've discovered TW only
a few months ago (I was lucky to arrive just for the birth of the
official TW5), and I've been hooked by both the great tool that TW
is and the good atmosphere of knowledge sharing in the community.
I agree with Jeremy and everybody in this thread that improving
the documentation process (including the great potential for
community knowledge) becomes more and more important, especially
in the perspective of attracting newcomers.
In general my thoughts on the topic are similar to what most
people have said here. I would like to suggest maybe a couple of
points that I think deserve some attention. Indeed, people with
technical skills tend to focus on the technical side of a problem,
and obviously there are highly skilled people here ;) While this
* For example, about the fact that some people are not comfortable
using github, a very simple way to overcome the problem would be
to have a few volunteers who know git who would receive the
contributions and make the pull request for them. I guess
something similar could be done for other things, like
translating, so that someone who can translate doesn't need to
have any technical skills.
* Imho, one of the problems with contributing to the official
documentation is that there is no clear guidelines about the
structure or the type of content. I think that it would be very
helpful to think about a detailed plan and identify the missing
parts: this way it would be easier for people who want to
contribute to know what to do, and eventually for newcomers to
find their way in the documentation.
I tried to develop these ideas and to imagine how things could
http://tw-doc-ideas.tiddlyspot.com
Regards,
Erwan

Post by Erwan
Thanks everyone for their contributions. There are a bunch of
good suggestions in the thread which I'll try to pick up in the
hangout on Tuesday.
A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process
* We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along
the lines of tiddlywiki.org <http://tiddlywiki.org> - it's a
proven way to work. It would be good to try out TW5's support for
TiddlySpace in a multiuser setting (since it's not been done
before I think there may be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
* We should support documentation contributions by people taking
a copy of tiddlywiki.com <http://tiddlywiki.com> onto tiddlyspot
and making their edits there. I could easily build a batch file
that pulls down their changes and applies them to the repo, so
that I can convert their changes to a pull request (I don't think
there's any avoiding needing a moderation step for tiddlywiki.com
<http://tiddlywiki.com>)
* An alternative workflow for accepting those contributions would
be to support visual diffing in the import manager
I've also got a couple of clarifications.

Post by Tobias Beer
Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.

We don't want to discourage people from suggesting and discussing
new features, but lets see how it goes and I can add a banner to
the "new issue" page if needed.

Post by Tobias Beer
4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part

would list the plugins that are officially sanctioned and
compatible with the latest release. The bottom part could be a
growing list of webpages where individuals have stored there
plugins and goodies they have created for TW but that may or may
not continue to be compatible.
* Plugins listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Plugins are the
officially maintained and distributed plugins. They will be
automatically upgraded when using http://tiddlywiki.com/upgrade.html
* Community plugins are listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Resources
Perhaps we should maintain a catalogue of community plugins that
is separate from the general resources list.

Post by Tobias Beer
Will 1.1.5 and the export feature make release before the

moratorium begins?
Yes, the moratorium would start after 5.1.5's release.
Best wishes
Jeremy
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 6:43 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers
trying to create link drops.
Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a
special thread on this forum would be better. I believe the
better wiki systems track history, so changes can be rolled
back when something useful has been overwritten.
I feel the github process discourages documentation. The
problem is that it's the same system of review for
documentation as for code. Which means that you may have to
wait a week or so before changes get applied, Sure, CODE
needs to be thoroughly vetted so that TW doesn't break. But,
unlike code, poor documentation is usually better than NO
documentation, and it can be peer-reviewed and tweaked as
time goes along. It's an odd quirk of human psychology that
people tend to like to correct things that are already in
place rather than creating new content in the first place. So
getting something in place quickly (even if not 100% perfect)
is more important than getting it publisher-ready on the
first draft.
Mark
I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on
tiddlyspot and make a list of topics people want
documentation for the most, then collect explanations and
examples from people and hopefully get someone who is
good at technical writing or design to collect everything
into a nice tiddler we can submit for inclusion on the
main page.
Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow
people to make small updates or suggestions for the
documentation without having to do the entire tiddler by
themselves. Using github isn't hard, but this may
encourage more people to help out. That is if multi-user
wikis are a viable solution, if not we would need someone
to manage it, which may not be better than just using
github the way it is now.
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[Mat]

Post by Erwan
http://tw-doc-ideas.tiddlyspot.com

Hear, hear! I particularly like that you brought up the need for different
types of documentation, and probably for different levels of expertise.
BTW, this will, to say the least, be one tough test of manhood to see to
what extent we can use the philosophy of tiddlers
<http://tiddlywiki.com/#Philosophy%20of%20Tiddlers>!

<:-)

[Richard Smith]

Hi all,

With regards the "Philosophy of Tiddlers
<http://tiddlywiki.com/#:%5B%5BPhilosophy%20of%20Tiddlers%5D%5D>".

I read some of Tobias' and Jeremy's recent conversations about sections in
Tiddlers. Although I don't understand some of the complexities, I do think
the goal of 'smallest semantically meaningful' is a good one. It's also
true that splitting a long tiddler into multiple smaller ones when those
smaller ones will never appear anywhere else adds little value for the
necessary work.

With regards to the documentation specifically then, how should we think
about, for example "Introduction to Filters
<http://tiddlywiki.com/#:%5B%5BIntroduction%20to%20Filters%5D%5D>" - should
it be split into ~13 different tiddlers and those tiddlers then re-combined?

Regards,
Richard

[Mat]

Post by Richard Smith
With regards to the documentation specifically then, how should we think
about, for example "Introduction to Filters
<http://tiddlywiki.com/#:%5B%5BIntroduction%20to%20Filters%5D%5D>" -
should it be split into ~13 different tiddlers and those tiddlers then
re-combined?

On a need basis perhaps? I.e if a part can be reused, then it is tiddlified
to avoid redundance in the system. Not sure how to deal with if there's
later a wish to change it in one context but not the other. Or maybe
clone+change is obvoius solution?

<:-)

[Tobias Beer]

Hi Mat,

Post by Mat
On a need basis perhaps? I.e if a part can be reused, then it is
tiddlified to avoid redundance in the system. Not sure how to deal with if
there's later a wish to change it in one context but not the other. Or
maybe clone+change is obvoius solution?

Yes, but that introduces a few questions, like...

- What name should that new tiddler get?
- Does it need tagging?
- Any fields?
- Where do I need to link it?
- How do I put it into context?
- Does it need ordering in some list?
- etc...

Whereas I could simply do some section magic
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/23PzU2qCsj4>, reference
that bit form anywhere, have it neatly displayed in a clickable toc... and
all those things that make not really big tiddlers not nessessarily smaller
than they have to be.

Let me put it slightly differently: there is a too small... in the sense
of: "smaller than is perhaps good for ya"... omg, all the uncertainty that
comes with the quantum-approach to anything. ^^

Best wishes, Tobias.

[PMario]

Post by Mat
On a need basis perhaps? I.e if a part can be reused, then it is

Post by Mat
tiddlified to avoid redundance in the system. Not sure how to deal with if
there's later a wish to change it in one context but not the other. Or
maybe clone+change is obvoius solution?

Yes, but that introduces a few questions, like...
- What name should that new tiddler get?
Finding proper name for tiddlers is always important and if you want to

reference sections you need proper tiddler names *and* proper section
names, otherwise your links will break in the future. So it doubles the
complexity.

Post by Mat
- Does it need tagging?
Some tiddlers may need tagging, some may not. Similar problem to creating

a TOC. The core can handle it already.

Post by Mat
- Any fields?
If needed. eg: caption
- Where do I need to link it?
In the main "overview" tiddler
- How do I put it into context?
An eg: "executive summary tiddler" can have a list with 2-3 lines of info,

to get an overview.
A "show it all" tiddler can transclude the whole content. Those concepts
are part of tiddlywiki.com already, so let us use it.

Post by Mat
- Does it need ordering in some list?
may be.

The core will get drag and drop UI for list sorting in the future. Do you
want to provide the same functions for sections too, without modifying the
tiddler text? To accomplish this, you'll need new tiddlers to store the
configuration. So what do you win, except making the mechanisms more
complicated?

Whereas I could simply do some section magic

Post by Mat
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/23PzU2qCsj4>,
reference that bit form anywhere, have it neatly displayed in a clickable
toc... and all those things that make not really big tiddlers not
nessessarily smaller than they have to be.

Why do you want to use magic, if you can use the core functions?

Post by Mat
Let me put it slightly differently: there is a too small... in the sense
of: "smaller than is perhaps good for ya"... omg, all the uncertainty that
comes with the quantum-approach to anything. ^^

At the beginning, I also wanted to have sections and slices back. ... but
using tiddlers for everything creates the power that TW has at the moment.
... Implementing sections with the same functionality as tiddlers, would
create more complexity in the core sw and is redundant, because tiddlers
can do it already.

If you search the group for *pmario *and *section *you may find those posts
and Jeremys responses.

*IMO tiddlers should be the smallest chunks of text we deal with. ... But
we need to improve the UI to compose and manipulate them. ...*

So if you want to have new plugins to make proper documentation possible,
we need those plugins to fit to the global core concept. ... If we really
need new core features to improve the documentation, Jeremy is needed to
implement them. ... But that's a problem, if we want the moratorium.

There are a lot of possibilities to be explored with TW. Falling back to
TWclassic patterns will just limit us, even if it seems to be faster in the
short run. ... So let us step forward and not backward.

just my 2 cents
mario

[Handoko Suwono]

Post by Jeremy Ruston
A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process for the

documentation. I have a couple of thoughts:

* We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along the lines of
tiddlywiki.org - it's a proven way to work. It would be good to try out
TW5's support for TiddlySpace in a multiuser setting (since it's not been
done before I think there may be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
I think we had been talking about lacking of proper documentation and
perhaps "good" training materials. It's good that you point out to host at
tiddlyspace in a multi-user setting.

My point is that TW-5 should be informed (or introduced) as (1)
collaborative works where many can edit simultaneously, wiki-like and (2)
as an open source product, it should gain as many users as it can. Not only
from the community within but also the public users outthere who would only
use TW as a product.


Handoko -

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Thanks everyone for their contributions. There are a bunch of good
suggestions in the thread which I'll try to pick up in the hangout on
Tuesday.
A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process for the
* We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along the lines
of tiddlywiki.org - it's a proven way to work. It would be good to try
out TW5's support for TiddlySpace in a multiuser setting (since it's not
been done before I think there may be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
* We should support documentation contributions by people taking a copy of
tiddlywiki.com onto tiddlyspot and making their edits there. I could
easily build a batch file that pulls down their changes and applies them to
the repo, so that I can convert their changes to a pull request (I don't
think there's any avoiding needing a moderation step for tiddlywiki.com)
* An alternative workflow for accepting those contributions would be to
support visual diffing in the import manager
I've also got a couple of clarifications.

Post by Tobias Beer
Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.

We don't want to discourage people from suggesting and discussing new
features, but lets see how it goes and I can add a banner to the "new
issue" page if needed.

Post by Tobias Beer
4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part would list

the plugins that are officially sanctioned and compatible with the latest
release. The bottom part could be a growing list of webpages where
individuals have stored there plugins and goodies they have created for TW
but that may or may not continue to be compatible.
* Plugins listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Plugins are the officially
maintained and distributed plugins. They will be automatically upgraded
when using http://tiddlywiki.com/upgrade.html
* Community plugins are listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Resources
Perhaps we should maintain a catalogue of community plugins that is
separate from the general resources list.

Post by Tobias Beer
Will 1.1.5 and the export feature make release before the moratorium

begins?
Yes, the moratorium would start after 5.1.5's release.
Best wishes
Jeremy
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 6:43 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <

Post by Tobias Beer
Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers trying to
create link drops.
Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special thread
on this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki systems track
history, so changes can be rolled back when something useful has been
overwritten.
I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem is that
it's the same system of review for documentation as for code. Which means
that you may have to wait a week or so before changes get applied, Sure,
CODE needs to be thoroughly vetted so that TW doesn't break. But, unlike
code, poor documentation is usually better than NO documentation, and it
can be peer-reviewed and tweaked as time goes along. It's an odd quirk of
human psychology that people tend to like to correct things that are
already in place rather than creating new content in the first place. So
getting something in place quickly (even if not 100% perfect) is more
important than getting it publisher-ready on the first draft.
Mark

Post by Jed Carty
I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and
make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect
explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good
at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we
can submit for inclusion on the main page.
Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow people to make
small updates or suggestions for the documentation without having to do the
entire tiddler by themselves. Using github isn't hard, but this may
encourage more people to help out. That is if multi-user wikis are a viable
solution, if not we would need someone to manage it, which may not be
better than just using github the way it is now.
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[Tobias Beer]

Post by Handoko Suwono
My point is that TW-5 should be informed (or introduced) as (1)
collaborative works where many can edit simultaneously

While that would be very desireable, TiddlyWiki is not that.

Best wishes, Tobias.

[Alex Hough]

The starting point for me is a personal notebook, a tool to help me think.
Yes, colaboration as well, but i am note sure about the many can edit
paradigm. GitHub and forking seems to be a better way, avoiding unnecessary
coordination and protocols for decision making

Alex

Post by Handoko Suwono
My point is that TW-5 should be informed (or introduced) as (1)

Post by Handoko Suwono
collaborative works where many can edit simultaneously

While that would be very desireable, TiddlyWiki is not that.
Best wishes, Tobias.
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[Handoko Suwono]

There is a topic about integrating TW5 and TS in TS list, but I am not
sure it is progressive. Please see in detail,

@ Osmosoft TiddlySpace and TiddlyWiki5
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlyspace/cKxJFJPZBcA

I was wondering if I could gently pass the ball to you guys

about your roadmap for integrating TiddlySpace and TiddlyWiki 5
and whether you could perhaps make that process transparent?
I remember a bit more than a year ago there was a rather successful trello
board for the registration / login process.
...

I believe this integration will kick-start a whole new collaboration

experience for either platform. TiddlySpot is great with tw5 but
collaboration is pretty much non-existent.

Here's a TiddlyWiki5 issue addressing this topic, perhaps join?

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/1194

The starting point for me is a personal notebook, a tool to help
me think. Yes, colaboration as well, but i am note sure about the many can
edit paradigm. GitHub and forking seems to be a better way, avoiding
unnecessary coordination and protocols for decision making
Alex

Post by Handoko Suwono
My point is that TW-5 should be informed (or introduced) as (1)

Post by Handoko Suwono
collaborative works where many can edit simultaneously

While that would be very desireable, TiddlyWiki is not that.
Best wishes, Tobias.
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[Alberto Molina]

+1

We all love new features, but the success of TW is more important.

[Jed Carty]

Erwin,

I was hoping to restart the dedicated documentation mailing list trying out
the ideas discussed here
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/F0dnmWrOuxg

The other mailing list is
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/tiddlywikidocs and I put up a post
briefly discussing how I hope it will work. The sort of guidelines you are
working on look like they would definitely help a lot and give a good
structure for people who would like to contribute. I hope to have changes
discussed on the other mailing list and demonstrated on the cloned wikis
like the example I made here
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywikidocs/X0GeGiiPMAw
That way we could have a relatively small group of people who have to
actually use github while everyone who can comment on the mailing list
could contribute ideas or content.

[Hiru Yoru]

Speaking as someone new to TW5, I think documentation is a must. I had a
hard time starting to use TWC way back in the day because of the
unavailability of documentation. It was a struggle and I stopped bothering
with it on several occasions because of that very problem. It was only
after more documentation became available that I could theme it, add my own
simple extensions, and really start to get it to work for me.

If you document TW5 thoroughly -- not just the dense, complex documentation
targeted towards seasoned programmers, but the more easily understood
documentation that could be read by newbies -- I think TW5 will grow on its
own. Allowing other people to add on to it will guarantee that the
most-wanted features are added as users will add them on themselves. This
will allow the community and features to grow on their own.

I'd say the best features to add to the core are the ones TW5 can't
function without. Give a solid foundation upon which others can build.
After that, once we have documentation, just wait, and I think you'll see
the extensions growing in number to suit any more specific needs.

That's just my humble personal opinion and hope.

On another note, I wanted to say thank you for all the work you've done.
TiddlyWiki is something I've used for very many years and it's done a lot
for me -- both in terms of using it and learning from it by playing around
with themes/extensions. I'm really glad I had it because it made a
difference for me, so thank you! ^-^

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the end
of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5.
Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the
available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as
they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
(In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to TiddlyFox
and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox architectural
changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be significantly
updated).
One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the
"export" features for 5.1.5.
I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th. I
committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've
been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings
translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently,
I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will
function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial
implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a
slow slog.
In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2
days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working
through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it
takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes,
documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of
contents.
The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last
few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as
I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the
conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of
TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from
voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable"
attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature
that hasn't been well enough communicated.
So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the
"export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important
feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it
makes little or no difference to new users.
My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here
calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate
problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep
smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to
ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for
the next few weeks.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it
further at the hangout next Tuesday,
Best wishes
Jeremy
--
Jeremy Ruston

[Eric Shulman]

Post by Hiru Yoru
If you document TW5 thoroughly -- not just the dense, complex
documentation targeted towards seasoned programmers, but the more easily
understood documentation that could be read by newbies -- I think TW5 will
grow on its own.

Yes! My "InsideTiddlyWiki" book project is intended to address exactly
this problem...

read more here:
"Inside TiddlyWiki: The Missing Manual"
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/inside-tiddlywiki-the-missing-manual/x/8816263

Note: although the IndieGoGo campaign has ended, the fundraising is ongoing,
and campaign "Perks" as described on the IndieGoGo page will still be given
to all new contributors! See below for the link to my direct PayPal
contribution form.

enjoy,
-e
Eric Shulman
TiddlyTools / ELS Design Studios

YOUR DONATIONS ARE VERY IMPORTANT!
HELP ME TO HELP YOU - MAKE A CONTRIBUTION TO MY "TIP JAR"...
http://TiddlyTools.github.com/fundraising.html#MakeADonation

Professional TiddlyWiki Consulting Services...
Analysis, Design, and Custom Solutions:
http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#Contact

[Hiru Yoru]

That's a great idea! Thank you for the information! My idea was more for an
online wiki, though, so that everyone can add to it and help to expand it
through group effort. I know I didn't say that specifically, but that's
what I had in mind when I wrote that. That said, I'm sure the two aren't
mutually exclusive. Having a book in hand that guides you through something
step-by-step is very different than having a bunch of separate articles on
a wiki. They each have a very useful place in the learning process.

I look forward to seeing your book when it's finished! ^-^ I also still
hope a wiki comes about online somewhere. Perhaps once I learn more about
TW5, I'd have something to contribute. ^-^

~Hiru

Post by Eric Shulman

Post by Hiru Yoru
If you document TW5 thoroughly -- not just the dense, complex
documentation targeted towards seasoned programmers, but the more easily
understood documentation that could be read by newbies -- I think TW5 will
grow on its own.

Yes! My "InsideTiddlyWiki" book project is intended to address exactly
this problem...
"Inside TiddlyWiki: The Missing Manual"
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/inside-tiddlywiki-the-missing-manual/x/8816263
Note: although the IndieGoGo campaign has ended, the fundraising is ongoing,
and campaign "Perks" as described on the IndieGoGo page will still be given
to all new contributors! See below for the link to my direct PayPal
contribution form.
enjoy,
-e
Eric Shulman
TiddlyTools / ELS Design Studios
YOUR DONATIONS ARE VERY IMPORTANT!
HELP ME TO HELP YOU - MAKE A CONTRIBUTION TO MY "TIP JAR"...
http://TiddlyTools.github.com/fundraising.html#MakeADonation
Professional TiddlyWiki Consulting Services...
http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#Contact

[Eric Shulman]

Post by Hiru Yoru
That's a great idea! Thank you for the information! My idea was more for
an online wiki, though, so that everyone can add to it and help to expand
it through group effort. I know I didn't say that specifically, but that's
what I had in mind when I wrote that. That said, I'm sure the two aren't
mutually exclusive. Having a book in hand that guides you through something
step-by-step is very different than having a bunch of separate articles on
a wiki. They each have a very useful place in the learning process.

There have been numerous efforts to create community-generated, open wikis
for documenting TiddlyWiki... unfortunately, most have met with only
limited success.

Although community-driven wiki's are a good idea for some kinds of
information, in practice, they have not been all that successful at
producing clear, consistent, well-organized documentation for TiddlyWiki.
There have been some *individually-authored/curated* TiddlyWiki
documentation efforts have been well received and are very helpful.
However, most of the "open contributor" sites tend to be a bit of a mess
and eventually lose steam and become static and stale, with outdated or
incorrect information (due to core changes). There is also a tendency for
people to document their solutions to "hard stuff"... so the articles tend
towards "dense, complex documentation targeted towards seasoned
programmers", rather than "the more easily understood documentation that
could be read by newbies"

-e

[Alfonso Arciniega]

Hi Eric,

I left you a message in TiddlyTools regarding the book project. Not sure if
you've seen it.

Apologies to the group for this unrelated message, just I don't have Eric's
email to communicate to him directly.

Alfonso Arciniega

Post by Eric Shulman

Post by Hiru Yoru
If you document TW5 thoroughly -- not just the dense, complex
documentation targeted towards seasoned programmers, but the more easily
understood documentation that could be read by newbies -- I think TW5 will
grow on its own.

Yes! My "InsideTiddlyWiki" book project is intended to address exactly
this problem...
"Inside TiddlyWiki: The Missing Manual"
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/inside-tiddlywiki-the-missing-manual/x/8816263
Note: although the IndieGoGo campaign has ended, the fundraising is ongoing,
and campaign "Perks" as described on the IndieGoGo page will still be given
to all new contributors! See below for the link to my direct PayPal
contribution form.
enjoy,
-e
Eric Shulman
TiddlyTools / ELS Design Studios
YOUR DONATIONS ARE VERY IMPORTANT!
HELP ME TO HELP YOU - MAKE A CONTRIBUTION TO MY "TIP JAR"...
http://TiddlyTools.github.com/fundraising.html#MakeADonation
Professional TiddlyWiki Consulting Services...
http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#Contact

[David Bakin]

I am a happy user of TWC. Every few months I check this group to see how
TW5 is coming along and I was very happy to read this message - until I
released it was 3 months old. Has this moratorium paid off? Is there
documentation and a plugin list for new users? I hope so!

Here's my state: I have several useful TWC wikis in progress ... some have
several hundred tiddlers. Even though there's very little theming done I
have only read that a) TWC tiddlers can't be directly imported to TW5 and
b) there's a tool "in progress" that will convert "most" tiddlers (but no
specification of what gets converted and what doesn't).

I'm willing to learn the new markup language, and in fact, I'm willing to
start new wikis from scratch (new topics) but my blocking issue is that I
do rely on several TWC plugins and I have no idea what the equivalent is in
TW5 or if it is available. So in the interests of progressing, I hope
you'll be able to answer for me what the equivalent of the following is in
TW5 or what I should be doing instead:

a) The single most important plugin I use is SharedTiddlers, which lets me
have a "base" wiki which contains nearly all the plugins I use (except
SharedTiddlers itself...) and then a bunch of topic wikis that refer to the
"base" for all enhancments ... plugins, configuration, etc. That way
when I introduce a new plugin to my repertoire ... or a plugin is upgraded
... I do it in one place - base.html - and it is available in all my wikis
instantly and automatically. Does SharedTiddlers exist in TW5 or is there
another way to get this vital functionality?

b) TextArea - to adjust the size of the area of the new tiddler I'm
creating.

c) RearrangeTiddlers - I just like to organize several tiddlers I'm reading
at the moment.

d) ForEachTiddler - I've written little utilities like a macro that deletes
all tiddlers with a given tag.

e) DisableWikiLinks - sometimes it's more convenient than using individual
markup

f) MathJax - I can move up to KaTeX ... I assume the markup to signal TeX
is similar, so this probably isn't a problem.

Really, the lack of documentation and the different plugin support are the
major major blockers for me. I just isn't practical to search google
groups to find answers to questions like "what's available" - things are so
scattered.

I will very much appreciate your help in getting me going on TW5 by letting
me know what the right way to handle each of the needs that the above TWC
plugins do for me. And also, am I right that I might as well NOT convert
my old TWC wikis? Or does the tool to do the conversion actual exist and
work?

Thanks very much! -- David Bakin

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the end
of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5.
Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the
available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as
they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.

[Eric Shulman]

Post by David Bakin
Here's my state: I have several useful TWC wikis in progress ... some
have several hundred tiddlers. Even though there's very little theming
done I have only read that a) TWC tiddlers can't be directly imported to
TW5 and b) there's a tool "in progress" that will convert "most" tiddlers
(but no specification of what gets converted and what doesn't).
I'm willing to learn the new markup language, and in fact, I'm willing to
start new wikis from scratch (new topics) but my blocking issue is that I
do rely on several TWC plugins and I have no idea what the equivalent is in
TW5 or if it is available. So in the interests of progressing, I hope
you'll be able to answer for me what the equivalent of the following is in

One of the best features of TWC (and TW5 in 'standalone' single file use),
is that all the programming for the system is self-contained in the same
file with your document data, so that there is no risk of "version skew"
when upgrading. You can continue to use your existing TWC documents even
as you get "up to speed" creating new TW5 documents from scratch. As you
learn more TW5 syntax and techniques, you will eventually become
comfortable enough with TW5 that you will be able to tackle the migration
of your existing TWC content. Of course, you can always decide that you
don't need to convert your TWC documents, and just use TW5 for new things.

a) The single most important plugin I use is SharedTiddlers, which lets me

Post by David Bakin
have a "base" wiki which contains nearly all the plugins I use (except
SharedTiddlers itself...) and then a bunch of topic wikis that refer to the
"base" for all enhancments ... plugins, configuration, etc. That way
when I introduce a new plugin to my repertoire ... or a plugin is upgraded
... I do it in one place - base.html - and it is available in all my wikis
instantly and automatically. Does SharedTiddlers exist in TW5 or is there
another way to get this vital functionality?

Jeremy has talked quite a bit about Ward Cunningham's "Federated Wiki"
concept, which can readily support a SharedTiddlers model of use.
However... the implementation is not yet there. One of the major concerns
is about security... because TWC allows some embedded scripting (e.g.,
onClick handlers in HTML code, evaluated parameters in TWC macros, etc.)
within tiddlers, it is a possible vector for malicious code... especially
in a "SharedTiddlers" situation, where the tiddlers can be coming from
non-trusted sources. Some of the TW5 strategies for closing this security
gap include "sanitizing" the tiddler content to remove all embedded
<script>...</script> elements, as well as all "onXXX" handlers in HTML code.

b) TextArea - to adjust the size of the area of the new tiddler I'm

Post by David Bakin
creating.

Most modern browsers now include a small "stretch box" on textarea input
fields. Simple grab the lower right corner of the text box and you can
resize it. This is a browser-level feature, and is completely independent
of TiddlyWiki code.

Post by David Bakin
c) RearrangeTiddlers - I just like to organize several tiddlers I'm
reading at the moment.

I like this feature too (that why I wrote it!). In TW5, the current
contents of the "story river" are continuously tracked in [[$:/StoryList]].
Editing the tiddlers listed there to change their order will immediately
update the order the tiddlers current displayed in the story river.
However, there is not YET any "drag and drop" handling to achieve this
interactively. TW5 has some built-in handling for drag-and-drop, via the
$dropzone widget, so there is some potential for creating a plugin to
enable dragging tiddlers for re-ordering... but this has not yet been
implemented... and may need some additional core changes to make it work
right.

d) ForEachTiddler - I've written little utilities like a macro that deletes

Post by David Bakin
all tiddlers with a given tag.

One of the most powerful new features of TW5 is the <$list> widget. It
selects a set of tiddlers by using a "filter" (another powerful features of
TW5), and then loops over that set of tiddlers, rendering specified content
for each tiddler that is selected. For your indicated use-case, you could
write something like:
<$list filter="[tag[SomeTag]]">
<$action-deletetiddler {{!!title}}/>
</$list>

However, since deleting a set of tiddlers is a fairly common activity, the
<$action-deletetiddler> widget also directly supports filtering for
deleting multiple tiddlers, so you could write this in just one line:
<$action-deletetiddler $filter="[tag[sometag]]"/>

To make sure that the above is only invoked when you explicitly choose to
delete tiddlers, you can wrap the above line inside a <$button> widget,
like this:
<$button>
<$action-deletetiddler $filter="[tag[sometag]]"/>
Delete tiddlers
</$button>
This creates a pushbutton labelled "Delete tiddlers". Pushing the button
triggers the contained <$action-deletetiddler> widget.

e) DisableWikiLinks - sometimes it's more convenient than using individual

Post by David Bakin
markup

f) MathJax - I can move up to KaTeX ... I assume the markup to signal TeX

Post by David Bakin
is similar, so this probably isn't a problem.

Not personally familiar with either MathJax or KaTeX syntax, but yes, my
impression is that they are similar.

Really, the lack of documentation and the different plugin support are the

Post by David Bakin
major major blockers for me. I just isn't practical to search google
groups to find answers to questions like "what's available" - things are so
scattered.

There are quite a few people that are working on improving the
documentation... but this takes time. There has recently been alot of
refactoring in the documentation at www.TiddlyWiki.com, but it's still a
work in progress, and there's lots of opportunities for improvement.

Myself, I am working on a full-blown book project: "Inside TiddlyWiki: The
Missing Manual", but it also is a work-in-progress, and it will be some
time (months) before it is ready for public consumption. This is a group
funded project, with initial funds raised through an IndieGoGo campaign,
and continued fundraising through direct PayPal contributions here:
http://TiddlyTools.github.com/fundraising.html#MakeADonation

I will very much appreciate your help in getting me going on TW5 by letting

Post by David Bakin
me know what the right way to handle each of the needs that the above TWC
plugins do for me. And also, am I right that I might as well NOT convert
my old TWC wikis? Or does the tool to do the conversion actual exist and
work?

Unfortuantely, migrating content is not currently a 'one click' operation.
You can drag-and-drop a TWC file onto an open TW5 document and it will
import all the tiddlers from the TWC file (you can select which ones).
However, the content in those TWC tiddlers is not "massaged" into TW5
syntax, which is left for you to do manually. There is also a TWC parser
plugin for TW5, which enables most (but not all) TWC syntax to be rendered
without converting to TW5 syntax (see
http://tiddlywiki.com/plugins/tiddlywiki/tw2parser/ for a demo). Note also
that there is no direct support in TW5 for TWC <<macro>> syntax --
especially if the macro was defined in a TWC plugin -- so there is still
some manual conversion and re-implementation that will be needed to
completely migrate from TWC to TW5.

Of course, as I noted above, you can continue to use your existing TWC
documents as long as you like, and only migrate when you are up-to-speed
with TW5.

I hope my answers have given you some confidence in moving forward to
TW5... if not for all your existing documents, then at least for any new
documents you create from scratch.

enjoy,
-e
Eric Shulman
TiddlyTools / ELS Design Studios

"Inside TiddlyWiki: The Missing Manual"
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/inside-tiddlywiki-the-missing-manual/x/8816263
Note: the IndieGogo funding campaign has ended,
but direct fundraising continues below...

YOUR DONATIONS ARE VERY IMPORTANT!
HELP ME TO HELP YOU - MAKE A CONTRIBUTION TO MY "TIP JAR"...
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[PMario]

Hi David,

Post by David Bakin
I am a happy user of TWC. Every few months I check this group to see how
TW5 is coming along and I was very happy to read this message - until I
released it was 3 months old. Has this moratorium paid off? Is there
documentation and a plugin list for new users? I hope so!

IMO documentation improved, but there will be never enough. So feedback and
help is very welcome!

There has been some development according to the plugin library and the
possibility to install plugins from the web within a file TW. see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7tRvAj1ZG9s#t=1492

The upcoming 5.1.8 version will have a basic core plugin library manager.

The tiddlywiki community tiddler <http://tiddlywiki.com/#Community>and Tobi
Beers TW <http://tobibeer.github.io/tb5/#Welcome> will be good starting
points.

Post by David Bakin
Here's my state: I have several useful TWC wikis in progress ... some
have several hundred tiddlers. Even though there's very little theming
done I have only read that a) TWC tiddlers can't be directly imported to
TW5 and b) there's a tool "in progress" that will convert "most" tiddlers
(but no specification of what gets converted and what doesn't).

TW will import TWC tiddlers as mime type text/x-tiddlywiki, which are shown
as plain text by TW. ... There is a button, that lets you set the type to
text/vnd.tiddlywiki. ... but the formatting will be broken since TW uses a
slightly different wiki text. Most noticeable will be, that TWC wasn't able
to create proper paragraphs. TW5 will need 2 newlines to indicate the
beginning of a new paragraph. 1 newline will be ignored. ...

There is an edit toolbar plugin from Stephen
http://tw5editor.tiddlyspot.com/ that can help you adjust text for TW.

Post by David Bakin
I'm willing to learn the new markup language, and in fact, I'm willing to
start new wikis from scratch (new topics) but my blocking issue is that I
do rely on several TWC plugins and I have no idea what the equivalent is in
TW5 or if it is available. So in the interests of progressing, I hope
you'll be able to answer for me what the equivalent of the following is in
a) The single most important plugin I use is SharedTiddlers, which lets me
have a "base" wiki which contains nearly all the plugins I use (except
SharedTiddlers itself...) and then a bunch of topic wikis that refer to the
"base" for all enhancments ... plugins, configuration, etc. That way
when I introduce a new plugin to my repertoire ... or a plugin is upgraded
... I do it in one place - base.html - and it is available in all my wikis
instantly and automatically. Does SharedTiddlers exist in TW5 or is there
another way to get this vital functionality?

There is no SharedTiddlers equivalent. ... But TiddlyDesktop
<https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyDesktop>may be interesting.

Post by David Bakin
b) TextArea - to adjust the size of the area of the new tiddler I'm
creating.

Just go to tiddlywiki.com edit a tiddler and have a look, if it does what
you want. .. I don't know, what you want here.

Post by David Bakin
c) RearrangeTiddlers - I just like to organize several tiddlers I'm
reading at the moment.

There is no drag and drop functionality in the core atm but the feature is
requested very often.

Post by David Bakin
d) ForEachTiddler - I've written little utilities like a macro that
deletes all tiddlers with a given tag.

list macros and list widget can do all the things and a lot more, without
javascript programming. Have a look at Tobie Beers site.

Post by David Bakin
e) DisableWikiLinks - sometimes it's more convenient than using individual
markup

Every parser rule has its own unique name. eg: bold
So if you start a tiddler with

\rule except bold

This tiddler will ignore the ''bold'' formatting rule. The opposite is:

\rules only bold italic underscore

So only bold italic and underscore will be recogniced. ....

So there are a lot of possibilities.

Post by David Bakin
f) MathJax - I can move up to KaTeX ... I assume the markup to signal TeX
is similar, so this probably isn't a problem.

There is a KaTeX plugin.

Post by David Bakin
Really, the lack of documentation and the different plugin support are the
major major blockers for me. I just isn't practical to search google
groups to find answers to questions like "what's available" - things are so
scattered.

Giving proper feedback and help out is highly appreciated and highly
needed. We just don't have enough man power.

Post by David Bakin
I will very much appreciate your help in getting me going on TW5 by
letting me know what the right way to handle each of the needs that the
above TWC plugins do for me. And also, am I right that I might as well NOT
convert my old TWC wikis?

If TWC works for you stay with it for your "working stuff" and try to use
TW5 for new wikis. .. IMO that's the best way to start.

Post by David Bakin
Or does the tool to do the conversion actual exist and work?

IMO it will never exist. There are some helpers. see Stephens toolbar
plugin, but IMO manual work will always need to be done.


have fun!
mario

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi David

Just to a couple of the answers already given by Eric and Mario:

a) The single most important plugin I use is SharedTiddlers, which lets me

Post by David Bakin
have a "base" wiki which contains nearly all the plugins I use (except
SharedTiddlers itself...) and then a bunch of topic wikis that refer to the
"base" for all enhancments ... plugins, configuration, etc. That way
when I introduce a new plugin to my repertoire ... or a plugin is upgraded
... I do it in one place - base.html - and it is available in all my wikis
instantly and automatically. Does SharedTiddlers exist in TW5 or is there
another way to get this vital functionality?

It's probably not what you were looking for, but there is a very flexible
equivalent of shared tiddlers under the Node.js configuration of
TiddlyWiki. Individual tiddlers are stored as individual, separate files.
Directories of tiddlers can be chained together and shared between wikis.

Post by David Bakin
b) TextArea - to adjust the size of the area of the new tiddler I'm
creating.

Edit text areas in TW5 automatically adjust their height to fit their
content.

Post by David Bakin
c) RearrangeTiddlers - I just like to organize several tiddlers I'm
reading at the moment.

buggyj has a plugin for this:

http://bjtools.tiddlyspot.com/#TagList

Post by David Bakin
Best wishes

Jeremy