Discussion:
[tw] [TW5] A tool to create and import schools (swarms? Groups? whatever) of tiddlers (move multiple tiddlers between wikis easily)
(too old to reply)
Jed Carty
2016-01-09 13:54:02 UTC
Permalink
A while ago there was a lot of discussion about making things like
mini-plugins that are just for easily moving groups of tiddlers from one
wiki to another. Prompted by Mats questions over here
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/KAftTbkJoOo> I finally
got around to making a way to do this.

It has two parts:

First, a purely wkitext tool that lets you give a filter and a name, it
then packs all of the tiddlers returned by the filter into a school tiddler
with the given name.

Second, after importing a school into your wiki you use the
action-import-school widget to take the information contained in the school
and unpack it into tiddlers.

Some differences between this and plugins:

There is no version control here
All tiddlers are normal tiddlers, there are no shadow tiddlers created
There is no need to reload your wiki after importing a tiddler school

So far I have found one bug that I can't track down. If you try to make a
school on tiddlywiki.com using either the filter '[tag[Messages]] or
[tag[Filter Operator]] it gives a too much recursion error. I can't figure
out why because I haven't run into other filters that give the same error.

The demo site with the tools is here
<http://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlerSchools/>.

Let me know if you have any suggestions or find any bugs.
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David Gifford
2016-01-09 15:13:53 UTC
Permalink
Absolutely brilliant. There have been times I really needed something like
this. Thanks Jed!

Dave
Post by Jed Carty
A while ago there was a lot of discussion about making things like
mini-plugins that are just for easily moving groups of tiddlers from one
wiki to another. Prompted by Mats questions over here
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/KAftTbkJoOo> I
finally got around to making a way to do this.
First, a purely wkitext tool that lets you give a filter and a name, it
then packs all of the tiddlers returned by the filter into a school tiddler
with the given name.
Second, after importing a school into your wiki you use the
action-import-school widget to take the information contained in the school
and unpack it into tiddlers.
There is no version control here
All tiddlers are normal tiddlers, there are no shadow tiddlers created
There is no need to reload your wiki after importing a tiddler school
So far I have found one bug that I can't track down. If you try to make a
school on tiddlywiki.com using either the filter '[tag[Messages]] or
[tag[Filter Operator]] it gives a too much recursion error. I can't figure
out why because I haven't run into other filters that give the same error.
The demo site with the tools is here
<http://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlerSchools/>.
Let me know if you have any suggestions or find any bugs.
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Mat
2016-01-09 16:01:24 UTC
Permalink
@Jed - now this is TERRIFIQUE!

(I'm answering on this here instead of in the other thread of ours.)

Let me know if you have any suggestions
*I'm getting some images popping up in my mind from this with UI ideas etc.
Should I draw them?

*Out of curiousity - why is it called Schools? Am I missing something?

<:-)
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Mat
2016-01-09 17:26:13 UTC
Permalink
...Follow up to my previous input;


- I propose to include a note that unpacking (unschooling?) a tiddler
that already exists will overwrite the existing one.
- The list field - is it only for the pupropse of showing the import
tiddler list (i.e the button stating Show Import Tiddler List)?
I'm thinking maybe it could be used instead of the
funnyandridiculouslylongseparator, i.e using "title:<tiddlertitle>" to be
the separator but that would require that when they're packed, they put
that field first in the tiddlers internal display of the fields.
...plus it might mean that a tiddler can't contain that textstring?
- May I humbly ask that the long separator is just a few characters
shorter so it doesn't linewrap? Or just a more traditional separator,hehe
;-)

<:-)
Post by Mat
@Jed - now this is TERRIFIQUE!
(I'm answering on this here instead of in the other thread of ours.)
Let me know if you have any suggestions
*I'm getting some images popping up in my mind from this with UI ideas
etc. Should I draw them?
*Out of curiousity - why is it called Schools? Am I missing something?
<:-)
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Jeremy Ruston
2016-01-09 16:06:43 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jed

Interesting, how would you compare the goals/capabilities/format of:

* Tiddler schools
* plugins
* JSON tiddler files

Best wishes

Jeremy

Sent from my iPad
A while ago there was a lot of discussion about making things like mini-plugins that are just for easily moving groups of tiddlers from one wiki to another. Prompted by Mats questions over here I finally got around to making a way to do this.
First, a purely wkitext tool that lets you give a filter and a name, it then packs all of the tiddlers returned by the filter into a school tiddler with the given name.
Second, after importing a school into your wiki you use the action-import-school widget to take the information contained in the school and unpack it into tiddlers.
There is no version control here
All tiddlers are normal tiddlers, there are no shadow tiddlers created
There is no need to reload your wiki after importing a tiddler school
So far I have found one bug that I can't track down. If you try to make a school on tiddlywiki.com using either the filter '[tag[Messages]] or [tag[Filter Operator]] it gives a too much recursion error. I can't figure out why because I haven't run into other filters that give the same error.
The demo site with the tools is here.
Let me know if you have any suggestions or find any bugs.
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Jed Carty
2016-01-09 16:21:02 UTC
Permalink
I have poked it a bit more and it looks like because the way I made it it
can't pack more than around 10 tiddler together without an error. I am
looking into it.

Other than that it seems to work as expected. I should be able to put
something together to make it work.
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Jed Carty
2016-01-09 16:45:03 UTC
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@Jeremy,

The way I have been thinking about things is that plugins are a more or
less permanent collection of tiddlers where you want consistent behaviour
or information. So pretty much how plugins exist now, hopefully with more
things like Erics book added.

With the tiddler schools I just want to make a quick and easy way to
transfer tiddlers between wikis. So if someone wanted to pull off all the
tiddlers the reference tiddlers from tiddlywiki.com into their own wiki
they would be able to use the advanced search and get a link that they can
drag and drop into their own wiki to import all the tiddlers at the same
time. My goal is just to make moving lots of tiddlers easily. My motivation
is from things like the interactive fiction thing I made and the SVG
graphic tool I am working on where sharing anything requires moving lots of
tiddlers from wiki to wiki. The only way what I made is any better than
exporting as json is that it doesn't require you to download the json as an
intermediate step. I am planning on making the unpacking process remove the
school tiddler by default.

As far as json or other formats, I think that they would be used for
applications where computer readable formats are important. I don't think
that comes up as often. Someone had asked about making a wiki that had the
bible split up into verses that were properly labeled and searchable with
chapter, verse, etc. Making a json file in the correct form to import into
tiddlywiki from that just took a simple perl script. I think that is the
main use for json or other formats.

@Mat

Draw ui ideas, if nothing else it is interesting to see what other people
are thinking. And schools to fit with schools of fish to go with the
tiddler name. I will go with a better name if anyone suggests one.
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Mat
2016-01-09 18:08:37 UTC
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schools to fit with schools of fish to go with the tiddler name. I will go
with a better name if anyone suggests one.
Aaah, shoal! Which I just learnt can also be called school! Thank you - I
had no idea. (I think I even got an additional aspect of Finding Nemo now.)
Ok, may I humbly suggest perhaps "tiddler *bundles*" or packets or some
such? Or I fear many non-native Enlighs people will just not understand.
Just a suggestion.


[...]I am planning on making the unpacking process remove the school
tiddler by default.
- For such a "quick" version I'd like it if one didn't have to come up
with a name for the bun... school. It could perhaps have a default name if
none is entered?
- In the intro to the plugin, may I suggest you state it's a "two part
plugin - one for bundling and one for unbundling"


As far as json or other formats, I think that they would be used for
applications where computer readable formats are important. I don't think
that comes up as often.
Well, for the unbundling part of the plugin it would be good if it could
manage JSON and e.g CSV. As noted in another thread, it is unclear how to
import non-tiddly data. LibreOffice (and I guess most spreadsheets) have a
limited set of output formats where CSV seems to be common. I believe also
XML, btw.
Handling something like this woudl open up for extra usefulness of the
plugin. Of course, I think this would be a natural feature in the TW import
function...


Draw ui ideas, if nothing else it is interesting to see what other people
are thinking.
Ok.

<:-)
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Jed Carty
2016-01-09 17:59:38 UTC
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@Mat,

I forgot to include the part about only overwriting tiddlers if an
attribute is set in the widget. I will add that.

I am hoping to use the list field to allow the user to selectively unpack
the tiddlers in the destination wiki. That is probably a good idea for the
tiddler separators, I just put in something that I hope people wouldn't
have in their wikis. The problem is that without using more than wikitext I
can't do anything to sanitize input to prevent users from accidentally
breaking the import.

To get around the error I mentioned I may have to go to javascript anyway.
I would like to avoid that because then you wouldn't be able to drop the
exporter into a wiki you don't have write access to (like a reference wiki)
and selectively pull out content.
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Mat
2016-01-14 13:33:42 UTC
Permalink
@Jed - I must say this can become an extremely valuable tool.

Instead of making drawings, I have attempted to modify your creation.

1) I discovered it is possible to drag'n drop tiddler links into the
tiddler bundle filter field! I think this is a very nice aspect and feels
user friendly. I made that field bigger so it also feels more like a drop
area and also a "box" into which you put your stuff that you're going to
bundle. The CSS could be improved though.

2) I didn't like to see a "missing bundle link" before the bundle was
created. So, I've made it so that it becomes visible only on clicking
"Create". A tricky part is to get the bundle name editor to show a default
name (Tiddler Bundle). I set it as a default value and as a placeholder,
but it is still not 100%.

3) I added a small garbage can but it is not implemented.


4) I have not really touched the un-bundling part - and one reason is this:

I think it would be much better if the tiddlers were stored in json format!
Because;


- There is then no need for a separate un-bundler. It works
automatically with the import mechanism that everyone is familiar with.
Anybody can directly just grab a bundle!
- JSON is very much readable.
- ...and using JSON it means we don't need to introduce the arbitrary
format currently implemented.


That first bullet is clearly the biggie and would increase usability
tremendously - or what do you say?

Again, thank you for an extremely promising creation. I have said of Tinka
that I consider it one of the most important plugins because it opens up
for simple end users like myself to make (and share!) other plugins - i.e
it is a *tool-to-make-tools*. Super important. IMO, the Tiddler Bundler is *even
a step forward* in that it makes things super transparent!

With some further UI tweaks to both the Tiddler Bundler and Tinka, I think
they will make perfect complements.

Demo <http://temp-tiddlerbundles.tiddlyspot.com/>

<:-)
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Alex Hough
2016-01-14 14:16:18 UTC
Permalink
I am following this thread with interest. I am wondering if a set of
tiddlers is exported as JSON, then they can be reformed into tiddlers when
imported into a new wiki -- either in bulk or as needed.

I've really just discovered dictionary and JSON tiddlers, they open up new
possibilities in my mind. Is there a way of "sending" a tiddler into a JSON
tiddler? It seems like a natural step in a refactoring / editing process,
like the tiddler doesn't need to be chanaged anymore, but no need for "$:/"
prefixes. (I find plugin titles very difficult to read when they are
packaged)

Alex
Post by Mat
@Jed - I must say this can become an extremely valuable tool.
Instead of making drawings, I have attempted to modify your creation.
1) I discovered it is possible to drag'n drop tiddler links into the
tiddler bundle filter field! I think this is a very nice aspect and feels
user friendly. I made that field bigger so it also feels more like a drop
area and also a "box" into which you put your stuff that you're going to
bundle. The CSS could be improved though.
2) I didn't like to see a "missing bundle link" before the bundle was
created. So, I've made it so that it becomes visible only on clicking
"Create". A tricky part is to get the bundle name editor to show a default
name (Tiddler Bundle). I set it as a default value and as a placeholder,
but it is still not 100%.
3) I added a small garbage can but it is not implemented.
I think it would be much better if the tiddlers were stored in json
format! Because;
- There is then no need for a separate un-bundler. It works
automatically with the import mechanism that everyone is familiar with.
Anybody can directly just grab a bundle!
- JSON is very much readable.
- ...and using JSON it means we don't need to introduce the arbitrary
format currently implemented.
That first bullet is clearly the biggie and would increase usability
tremendously - or what do you say?
Again, thank you for an extremely promising creation. I have said of Tinka
that I consider it one of the most important plugins because it opens up
for simple end users like myself to make (and share!) other plugins - i.e
it is a *tool-to-make-tools*. Super important. IMO, the Tiddler Bundler
is *even a step forward* in that it makes things super transparent!
With some further UI tweaks to both the Tiddler Bundler and Tinka, I think
they will make perfect complements.
Demo <http://temp-tiddlerbundles.tiddlyspot.com/>
<:-)
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Mat
2016-01-14 14:58:20 UTC
Permalink
@Alex

I am following this thread with interest. I am wondering if a set of
Post by Alex Hough
tiddlers is exported as JSON, then they can be reformed into tiddlers when
imported into a new wiki -- either in bulk or as needed.
Yes, exactly. To test it, open two browser tabs, one with tiddlywiki.com
and the other with tiddlywiki.com/empty.

From tw.com, either export a single tiddler as json (i.e via the regular
tiddler toolbar) or use Export All under the sidebar Tools tab. This
creates a json file on your computer. You can peek at it using e.g notepad.
To import it into tw.com/empty just drag'n drop. Very smooth. This is why
I'd love to see tiddler bundles formatted into plain json - anyone could
import it in a snap and it would be soooo easy for *really *anyone to make
"plugins" sort of. This would also be perfect for "content plugins", i.e to
share actual content so the receiver can delete or modify freely after. I
have some big ideas for this ;-)
Post by Alex Hough
I've really just discovered dictionary and JSON tiddlers, they open up new
possibilities in my mind. Is there a way of "sending" a tiddler into a JSON
tiddler? It seems like a natural step in a refactoring / editing process,
like the tiddler doesn't need to be chanaged anymore, but no need for "$:/"
prefixes. (I find plugin titles very difficult to read when they are
packaged)
Do you mean to convert a tiddler into json format? Interesting - but why?
Is it to use it as a dictionary tiddler... but then what would that bring
over using the usual field name:value pairs, i.e for reference?

In some sense, Jeds Tiddler Bundle thing creates almost dictionary tiddlers.

<:-)
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Eric Shulman
2016-01-14 17:58:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Hough
@Alex
I am following this thread with interest. I am wondering if a set of
Post by Alex Hough
tiddlers is exported as JSON, then they can be reformed into tiddlers when
imported into a new wiki -- either in bulk or as needed.
Yes, exactly. To test it, open two browser tabs, one with tiddlywiki.com
and the other with tiddlywiki.com/empty.
From tw.com, either export a single tiddler as json (i.e via the regular
tiddler toolbar) or use Export All under the sidebar Tools tab. This
creates a json file on your computer.
In addition to exporting either a single tiddler or all tiddlers, you can
use the $:/AdvancedSearch filter tab to export *selected* tiddlers. Next
to the filter input field are three buttons (two are hidden until you enter
some input). The down-arrow provides a list of pre-defined filters. The X
resets the filter input. The "half box with up arrow" is the *export*
button. Clicking it gives a popup list of formats, including "JSON file".
Choose a format to export the selected tiddlers to a file.

You can then drop that file onto any open TiddlyWiki and import the
tiddlers in the usual way.

By the way... in
TWClassic, http://www.tiddlytools.com/#ExportTiddlersPlugin used an export
file format that became known as "PureStore", which was just the "store
area" portion of the TWC file (i.e., just the tiddler data, without all the
TW core run-time code). Because this format is *identical* to the store
area used in full TWClassic files, they are able to be imported directly
into another file by using the TWClassic "Backstage" import interface (or
my ImportTiddlersPlugin... which was the original importer, even before the
TWCore functionality.)

enjoy,
-e
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Felix Küppers
2016-01-22 11:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi Eric

was this "pure store" xml-based then? In the GitHub discussion about a
potential new "tid" format, I thought about simply exporting the tiddler
div of the wiki file. the advantage would be that the format of the html
wiki store and the external (export) format would be completely
identical. Is/Was this the case for TWC as well?

-Felix
Post by Eric Shulman
By the way... in
TWClassic, http://www.tiddlytools.com/#ExportTiddlersPlugin used an
export file format that became known as "PureStore", which was just
the "store area" portion of the TWC file (i.e., just the tiddler data,
without all the TW core run-time code). Because this format is
*identical* to the store area used in full TWClassic files, they are
able to be imported directly into another file by using the TWClassic
"Backstage" import interface (or my ImportTiddlersPlugin... which was
the original importer, even before the TWCore functionality.)
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Jed Carty
2016-01-15 10:16:11 UTC
Permalink
I made a version that uses javascript for both packing and unpacking. This
means that you have to have the plugin in a wiki in order to create a
bundle which I don't like, but I couldn't find any way to get around the
problems from trying to copy too bundle together too many tiddlers using
just wikitext. Here is the new demo
<http://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlerBundles/>.
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Mat
2016-01-15 14:16:07 UTC
Permalink
@Jed - great developments.

Just curious; why is it less desirable that your creation is itself a
plugin? I mean, it is still something that the user must install into their
TW to use?

I hope it is ok for me to ask without being rude; Is json included in the
bit about "not wanting to get into complex parsing rules yet"? I'm guessing
it is, right? I was thinking it might not be because it seems to me that
the big job in separating the fields is already done in Tiddler Bundles and
adding json would merely be a matter of inserting curly braces and commas
arond them? (*Whaddyamean I've never tried this myself? How can you
possibly tell!*) I hope it is not rude to ask, I don't mean to push
anything if json in deed is in deed "complex parsing rules".

The separator: I see the same problem in letting the user define the
separator as it being predefined. Actually even greater risk if user
defines it. How about using some exotic, but universally accepted, unicode
characters like I believe these are; 🆕 (squared new) or 📰 (newspaper ...
looks like a tiddler, doesn't it). It is not likely that anyone uses, say,
ten of those in a row and it is easy to locate them visually in a tiddler
bundle. BTW, if possible, it would be nice with a double line break before
and after the separator line for even visually clearer separation.

Detail: In your demo, in the pre-made test example you include [[What is
this?]][[New Tiddler 2]]. I think it was better with Bob etc that are
shorter and clearer.

I'm happy you like my interface suggestions. Since you do, I'll clean up
some bits that may not be optimally defined or implemented.

Thank you so much for this Jed!

<:-)
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Mat
2016-01-15 21:17:23 UTC
Permalink
It just struck me that tiddler bundling would (eventually) be a nice
addition to the Advanced Search feature, in the Filter section. It fits
very well with the export tiddler(s) concept... even very well, IMO.

I.e the filter result is automatically a link that really is a bundle with
all those tiddlers.

And how about this idea; Imagine if *tags*, were really automatically
bundle links! I mean... as it is currently, a tag is merely a label for a
set of tiddlers, but why could it not BE the tiddlers in a more physical
sense? Transferring groups of tiddlers would be extremely easy. A tag can,
of course, also be the title of a tiddler in itself which should not be a
problem (if one drags the tiddler link, then it's the tiddler, if one drags
the tagpill then it's the bundle. And in the bundle, I the tiddler named
the same as the group would constitute the initial content in the bundle.
The idea of a tag as a bundle link feels like a very natural extension of
the idea that tiddler titles are links.

I think it would be a particularly useful concept when we have the
TWederation... or maybe it really could be seen as a part of twederating?
It certainly is an infrastructurial aspect for sharing. It would be useful
right away; For one thing, bundles as in "light versions of plugins" would
be created incidentally and casually! People wouldn't even need to realize
they were creating easily transferable sets of tiddlers. Any visitor who
wants, say, a copy of the "Filter Operator" docs could get the stuff in
literally 2 seconds.

And... I have an even wilder idea that I'll post in a separate thread
titled something like "[TW5] Instantaneous TiddlyWikis"... I mean, what
else is there to do a Friday evening?

<:-)
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Jed Carty
2016-01-15 22:31:08 UTC
Permalink
For why I wanted it to be all wikitext: I was just thinking that it would
be better if the packaging tool could be imported into a wiki without
having to reload. It isn't a big concern but having to install a plugin in
order to export tiddlers from an existing wiki doesn't sound like a good
situation. For example, if there is a project leader who had a large task
list in a central wiki and someone wanted to put only the tasks they are
responsible for into a separate wiki they would have to modify (or copy and
modify) the original wiki to use the plugin.

And no, it isn't rude to ask. For most of my work with tiddlywiki I just
throw together the first thing that comes to mind so I don't always
consider alternatives. Questions often help with that.

JSON does have more complex parsing rules than what I have made and would
have been a bit difficult to handle using only wikitext, since it is all
javascript now json should be just as simple to use as what I am making.
One quick reason is that in a normal json format you need to escape certain
characters (so : becomes \: to show that it is a literal character instead
of a control character), there isn't any reasonable way to do this in
wikitext. The format I am using takes advantage of the specific formatting
imposed by tiddler fields so the only possible confusion would be in the
division between tiddlers. That is why I am using the long strings for
those divisions. Since javascript has builtin support for the json format
this isn't a problem in when using a javascript widget.

I hope to make a more generic version of what you are talking about with
the tags defining bundles. Unfortunately this may either require some
significant additions to the import/export mechanism or that there are
bundle tiddlers created or updated every time a tag is added to a tiddler.
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Hegart Dmishiv
2016-01-21 20:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

I've been following along with this and the other thread
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/C7LmOeh4NVs> where
you've been discussing these bundles of tiddlers. As you may know, I'm only
very new to TiddlyWiki, and I'm not a developer, so much of what you've
been discussing here has gone way over my head. But I'm not here to ask you
to explain it all to me. Instead, I have a simple use-case in mind for
importing a swarm / school of tiddlers. Perhaps you can show me how to make
it happen within your existing framework. Perhaps my simple idea will prod
something loose that might help you further develop your own solution.

In Jed's example
<http://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlerBundles/autobundle.html#What%20is%20this%3F>,
he says *"I would like to use the same widget to let you import other file
types, like csv files. I don't want to get into anything that requires
complex parsing rules yet, but importing from other file types should be
able to use the same framework as in the widget."*

Here is where my use-case fits in. I've started studying with Steven
Schneider's {{DesignWrite}} Open 2016 classes
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/l4hZ3-Ugv60>, as was
announced recently here in the forums. He's setting an exercise for next
week
<https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/tk91wqty552z6z1/designwrite.html#Green%20Eggs%20and%20Ham>
which will require us to create a swarm of tiddlers. I've already started
looking into a simpler way for me to complete this exercise, without having
to repeatedly click on the "new here" link and manually generate each
tiddler. With judicious use of find & replace, I've turned the comma
separated list of 50 words into a single text file with tiddlers (currently
separated by two line breaks) which I'd like to import into my wiki. I'm
attaching four files, which I created in this order:

1. The *.ods spreadsheet was created from the original text document
where I had replaced the commas with line breaks.
2. The *.csv file from the *.ods, which again underwent more find &
replace passes, in order to create...
3. The *.odt document from the *.csv, from which I could manually
copy/paste each to create individual *.tid files for importing
individually, but then...
4. The *.tids file (that's not a typo, I meant it to be plural). This is
a simple text file, just like a regular *.tid file, but containing multiple
tiddlers.

As I say, the multiple tiddlers are currently separated by two line breaks,
but that could easily be changed (again with the find & replace) to some
sort of demarcation like your IDONTKNOWWHATTOMAKETHIS string.


So, the question is, how to import a *.tids file into my TiddlyWiki and
then unpack it into individual tiddlers? Food for thought?


Hegart.
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Mat
2016-01-21 21:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Hegart,

Hehe - are you asking for help to cheat with your homework?? ;-)

Just kidding. But I'd be surprised if he intended for people to create
I've already started looking into a simpler way for me to complete this
exercise, without having to repeatedly click on the "new here" link and
- there is a simpler way; add the [[square brackets]] around the words in
the list, and you can click on the links instead.

As for your request to use Jeds solution for this... I think you're pretty
much asking for the exact thing he explained is "not for now".

...BUT...

...it so happens that I was actually corresponding with Steve the other day
- specifically about how to get spreadsheet content into TW! (Yes, that's a
coincidence to say the least.)

I recalled that he had previously asked for a ways to import larger amounts
of data into a TW and it so happened that I just found a method for this
the other day. I wrote it up as a post for TWaddle... which has a lot of
new stuff but nothing new published... but I'll make an exception and
publish it since it is so spot on: So here ya go:

Import data using Google sheets @ TWaddle
<http://twaddle.tiddlyspot.com/#Import%20data%20using%20Google%20Sheets>


<:-)
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Jed Carty
2016-01-21 21:18:51 UTC
Permalink
The tiddler bundles have so far just been for moving things directly from
one wiki to another instead of importing an external file. If you added
some separator string than what you have would be almost identical to the
text field of a tiddler bundle created using the widget I made (my bundles
also label the text field).
I haven't done anything to support importing external files yet but using
what you have would be a way to have external files. I am not sure if I am
going to bother creating a way to import files to the tiddler bundler
because that already exists using json.

To create a file you could import using the widget I made you would need to
do two things:

1 - Add some separator string between each tiddler listed in your file (I
will use IDONTKNOWWHATTOMAKETHIS because I think it is kinda funny)

2 - Create the bundle tiddler data. That is at the top of your file put

title: Some Bundle Title
tags: [[Bundle Tiddler]]
list: list the files here, but this part isn't actually important yet
separator: IDONTKNOWWHATTOMAKETHIS

(the text from your .tids file goes here)

Then give that file a .tid extension and you should be able to import it
into a wiki the same as any other .tid file and you could use the tiddler
bundle widget to unpack the tiddlers.
For now this may be more trouble than it is worth considering you could
create a json file that does the same thing from the spreadsheet.
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Hegart Dmishiv
2016-01-21 21:59:39 UTC
Permalink
Wow, hey thanks both of you. Your solution using Goggle Docs looks really
interesting Mat. However, what happens when a field (such as the text
field) contains quotation marks? Will I need to escape them somehow? Won't
that break things when I come to importing? I don't really know enough
about JSON to understand what I'm doing there.

Your solution Jed, of artificially crafting a tiddler bundle that would be
accepted by your action-import-bundle.js
<http://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlerSchools/#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Finmysocks%2FTiddlerBundles%2Faction-import-bundle.js>
widget would probably work for me.

I've just realised a further problem I'd have with this scenario though,
and one that isn't as easily overcome. I'm hosting my {{DesignWrite}}
TiddlyWiki instance on GitHub, using Danielo's script
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/s8pnvQW5UgY>. This
means that once I have imported and unpacked them all, using either Mat's
or Jed's solution, I have no way of saving the single HTML file. I'll still
need to export/import each one individually to get them up to GitHub.

Oh well, it was worth a try. Perhaps Mat's *"wrap 'em in square brackets"*
idea is best for me here, then I can just export each one as a *.tid, for
uploading to GitHub. Either that or somehow parse my existing *.tids file
externally, to slice it up into individual *.tid files. I presume I can do
that with a BASH script. Off to take a look. Thanks again for the replies.
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Matabele
2016-01-22 10:14:52 UTC
Permalink
Hi

I'm a little confused about the purposes of these utilities -- what can
they do that can't be done with the standard method?

For those who are unaware of the standard method -- this is my usual
procedure:
1. Tag each of the tiddlers you wish to export with the tag 'export'
2. Open the Filter tab of Advanced Search
3. Enter the filter expression '[tag[export]]' (this should list the
tiddlers you wish to export)
4. Click the little 'Export tiddlers' button next to the filter search box
5. Select 'JSON File'
6. Enter the name of your file, and save
7. Drag the saved file onto your other wiki
8. Import the tiddlers
9. If any of the tiddlers contained plugins, save and refresh

And you're done.

regards
Post by Jed Carty
A while ago there was a lot of discussion about making things like
mini-plugins that are just for easily moving groups of tiddlers from one
wiki to another. Prompted by Mats questions over here
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/KAftTbkJoOo> I
finally got around to making a way to do this.
First, a purely wkitext tool that lets you give a filter and a name, it
then packs all of the tiddlers returned by the filter into a school tiddler
with the given name.
Second, after importing a school into your wiki you use the
action-import-school widget to take the information contained in the school
and unpack it into tiddlers.
There is no version control here
All tiddlers are normal tiddlers, there are no shadow tiddlers created
There is no need to reload your wiki after importing a tiddler school
So far I have found one bug that I can't track down. If you try to make a
school on tiddlywiki.com using either the filter '[tag[Messages]] or
[tag[Filter Operator]] it gives a too much recursion error. I can't figure
out why because I haven't run into other filters that give the same error.
The demo site with the tools is here
<http://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlerSchools/>.
Let me know if you have any suggestions or find any bugs.
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Felix Küppers
2016-01-22 10:28:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi Matabele,

I agree with you. The standard export method, which is based on JSON
tiddlers, is a much cleaner way. I think Jed reinvented the wheel ;) Or
maybe we are missing something, I couldn't follow the whole discussion.

-Felix
Post by Matabele
Hi
I'm a little confused about the purposes of these utilities -- what
can they do that can't be done with the standard method?
For those who are unaware of the standard method -- this is my usual
1. Tag each of the tiddlers you wish to export with the tag 'export'
2. Open the Filter tab of Advanced Search
3. Enter the filter expression '[tag[export]]' (this should list the
tiddlers you wish to export)
4. Click the little 'Export tiddlers' button next to the filter search box
5. Select 'JSON File'
6. Enter the name of your file, and save
7. Drag the saved file onto your other wiki
8. Import the tiddlers
9. If any of the tiddlers contained plugins, save and refresh
And you're done.
regards
A while ago there was a lot of discussion about making things like
mini-plugins that are just for easily moving groups of tiddlers
from one wiki to another. Prompted by Mats questions over here
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21topic/tiddlywiki/KAftTbkJoOo>
I finally got around to making a way to do this.
First, a purely wkitext tool that lets you give a filter and a
name, it then packs all of the tiddlers returned by the filter
into a school tiddler with the given name.
Second, after importing a school into your wiki you use the
action-import-school widget to take the information contained in
the school and unpack it into tiddlers.
There is no version control here
All tiddlers are normal tiddlers, there are no shadow tiddlers created
There is no need to reload your wiki after importing a tiddler school
So far I have found one bug that I can't track down. If you try to
make a school on tiddlywiki.com <http://tiddlywiki.com> using
either the filter '[tag[Messages]] or [tag[Filter Operator]] it
gives a too much recursion error. I can't figure out why because I
haven't run into other filters that give the same error.
The demo site with the tools is here
<http://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlerSchools/>.
Let me know if you have any suggestions or find any bugs.
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Mat
2016-01-22 12:23:36 UTC
Permalink
Matabele wrote:

1. Tag each of the tiddlers you wish to export with the tag 'export'
Post by Matabele
2. Open the Filter tab of Advanced Search
3. Enter the filter expression '[tag[export]]' (this should list the
tiddlers you wish to export)
4. Click the little 'Export tiddlers' button next to the filter search box
5. Select 'JSON File'
6. Enter the name of your file, and save
7. Drag the saved file onto your other wiki
8. Import the tiddlers
9. If any of the tiddlers contained plugins, save and refresh
And you're done.
Yeah... but that's quite a few steps (to say the least) and even involving
your local storage.

Should visiting users be forced to do this too? Or how would you serve
others this .tid file? Tiddler Bundles is much more direct, and as Jeds
demos here
<http://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlerBundles/autobundle.html> you
can even build the bundle on an external TW as it loads. You immediately
have the link to drag into your TW.

That said, it would be great if the export mechanism could be modified to
also offer "internal export" i.e so that a ".tid" instead simply becomes a
single tiddler in the TW. And un-pack it by drag'n dropping it's title link
onto the greeny. This would in effect be Tiddler Bundles, I think.

Currently, only(?) plugins allow you to manage multiple tiddlers as one
unit. But this should not be limited to plugins because plugins and shadow
tiddlers bring along other "features" such as the prevention of deleting
tiddlers etc.

This latter aspect of "easy deletion" is particularly important for
*content* tiddlers. It should be easy to import/export normal tiddlers *en
masse* and the tiddlers should, of course, be simple to delete as desired.
For instance, I'm working on what I hope will become an official "edition"
(gaaah, I have a problem with that term here. *Application *is just much
better!) that consists of a basic infrastructure to deal with particular
content - but the whole thing only becomes valuable when it is filled with
content... but it requires much content and I plan on providing premade
such... but it is crucial that the user can easily delete and manipulate
this content, etc. Neither a plugin nor the standard exporting procedure
nor drag'n drop one-tiddler-at-a-time are satisfying solutions for this.

Does this clarify a bit? Of course, @Jed might have other opinions on why
tiddler bundling is valuable.

<:-)
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Eric Shulman
2016-01-22 12:34:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mat
Currently, only(?) plugins allow you to manage multiple tiddlers as one
unit. But this should not be limited to plugins because plugins and shadow
tiddlers bring along other "features" such as the prevention of deleting
tiddlers etc.
As I previously noted
(https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/iVrv72zWe4g/YOHUBA6DDwAJ), you
can use the $:/AdvancedSearch filter tab to select tiddlers and export them
to a .JSON file. You can then drop this file onto any open TW to import
the entire "bundle" of tiddlers.

Neither a plugin nor the standard exporting procedure nor drag'n drop
Post by Mat
one-tiddler-at-a-time are satisfying solutions for this.
How so? I can easily import a bunch of tiddlers from a single JSON export
file. Suppose I also tag those tiddlers (before exporting) so that they
are easy to find later on. I can then quickly delete all those tagged
tiddlers using a button like this:
<$button>
delete tagged tiddlers
<$action-deletetiddler $filter="[tag[someTag]]"/>
</$button>

-e
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Mat
2016-01-22 13:02:38 UTC
Permalink
Eric wrote:

As I previously noted (
Post by Eric Shulman
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/iVrv72zWe4g/YOHUBA6DDwAJ), you
can use the $:/AdvancedSearch filter tab to select tiddlers and export them
to a .JSON file. You can then drop this file onto any open TW to import
the entire "bundle" of tiddlers.
Ok of course, but I meant manage multiple tiddlers as one unit *internally*.
Exporting them is really then managing a *file*.
Post by Eric Shulman
Neither a plugin nor the standard exporting procedure nor drag'n drop
Post by Mat
one-tiddler-at-a-time are satisfying solutions for this.
How so?
For one thing, you might not be allowed to download or store files. Or it
might just be a hassle, like on a phone. I'm actually dont' even know how I
would do this on a phone.

And, a comparable example; imagine if we came up with a browser and the
equivalent of the iStore or the FF browser addon store... but to install
an addon in our browser, people had to install each plugin as if they were
stand-alone programs. Download, locate where it was dowloaded, click to
extract/run, etc. That would be a definite "in-elegance" and people would
likely choose another browser... :-/

<:-)
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Jed Carty
2016-01-22 12:41:33 UTC
Permalink
The reason to make this is so that you don't need to use your local file
system. Yes, there are other ways to move large numbers of tiddlers if you
save them as a json file, but with this you don't need to do that.

So you could say 'import this link into your wiki to add all the tiddlers
related to lists' on a reference site then the person could import them in
one action without having to download anything and without having to reload
their wiki like with a plugin.
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Felix Küppers
2016-01-22 13:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jed,
Post by Jed Carty
The reason to make this is so that you don't need to use your local
file system.
Thanks for the explanation, I get the intention now (also thanks @Mat
for the explanation). I like the idea of exporting without using the
file system, this should be supported by the core, although using JSON
instead of the big delimiter string you use as a hack to separate
tiddlers ;)

-Felix
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BJ
2016-01-22 14:59:33 UTC
Permalink
Another possibility for copying tiddlers between tiddlywikis is to use
tiddlyclip - dock to one tw then go to another. Without selecting any text
right click and select 'tip' from the context menu, type in the name of a
tag. All tiddlers with that tag will be copied into the other tiddlywiki

all the best

BJ
Post by Felix Küppers
Hi Jed,
Post by Jed Carty
The reason to make this is so that you don't need to use your local
file system.
for the explanation). I like the idea of exporting without using the
file system, this should be supported by the core, although using JSON
instead of the big delimiter string you use as a hack to separate
tiddlers ;)
-Felix
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Mat
2016-01-22 16:34:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by BJ
Another possibility for copying tiddlers between tiddlywikis is to use
tiddlyclip - dock to one tw then go to another. Without selecting any text
right click and select 'tip' from the context menu, type in the name of a
tag. All tiddlers with that tag will be copied into the other tiddlywiki
Great thinking! This might make it possible for me to start using
tiddlyclip then which has not been working for me as I typically use
multiple TWs and both Chrome and FF!

...

BTW, another clarifying argument as to why the standard export/import
feature is not sufficient; It should be clear that the existing plugin
download mechanism is much better as it is than if it were to involve the
external file manager.


<:-)
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