Discussion:
[tw] How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?
Vytas
2018-03-31 11:21:21 UTC
Permalink
Hello TiddlyWiki enthusiasts,

I have recently discovered TiddlyWiki and here I have question:

Is it in principle possible to somehow tag selected paragraphs of a text
within a tiddler, so that it would be later possible to transclude all the
paragraphs associated with a specific tag?

Let's say, I write a journal with one tiddler per day, and in any given
journal tiddler I write about various topics. For a given topic, the goal
would be to create a new tiddler composed of all the paragraphs from
different tiddlers associated with that topic. Is it possible to achieve
something like this without having to create, for each topic, a separate
tiddler everyday?

Warm regards,

Vytas
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Jed Carty
2018-03-31 13:55:29 UTC
Permalink
The only way to do this would be to make each paragraph a separate tiddler.
The text slicer plugin already does this on a larger scale so while it may
not be usable for what you want it is possible to do it.

There has been a lot of discussion about things like this and sub-sections
in tiddlers lead to more problems than they solve. I have some ideas on how
to make a plugin that does this but I don't think I will have time to make
it anytime soon.
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Mat
2018-03-31 16:14:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi Vytas

Yes, I made http://cherrypicker.tiddlyspot.com and later
http://attention.tiddlyspot.com for this purpose. I believe the latter is
more polished than the former. Also, I vaguely recall Thomas Elmiger made
some variant later and he is good at perfecting things.

It is, in deed, a functionality we need and one that is possibly even
expected by modern hashtagging and

<:-)
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'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-01 08:48:48 UTC
Permalink
Thank you for your responses Jed and Mat.

Mat, I have tried the CherryPicker tool. Great job! After having imported
the three CherryPicker components to my wiki, I ran into an issue that the
macro <<cherrypicker "HEY">> adds, for each segment, three additional
unwanted lines: *pfx:HEY*, *txt: text within a segmentHEY* and *rest:HEY*.
Luckily, I was able to remove these lines by deleting, from the
CherryPicker tiddler, code lines like this
@@.pfx ''pfx'':<<pfx>><br>@@

By playing around with the CherryPicker tiddler, I was also able to
display, in the aggregate tiddler, the dates when the corresponding
tiddlers were modified. Which, for an inexperienced person like me, is
great!

However, can there be a method to tag selected paragraphs, in a tiddler, in
such a way, that the tagging symbols (in this case, the two HEY's between
which the 'cherry' is located) would not be displayed in the original
tiddlers? I found that instead of using HEY, squeezing the seleceted text
between two lines of
@@color:white;HEY@@
prevents the word HEY from being displayed. But this seems to be a very
unelegant solution :)





a)
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Mat
2018-04-01 22:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Vytas, happy you like the CherryPicker.

@@.pfx ''pfx'':<<pfx>><br>@@
Not sure if that is intentional from my side or not. Good you solved it but
if there are any side effects from your solution, you might try to add this
to the stylesheet:

.pfx {display:none;}
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
By playing around with the CherryPicker tiddler, I was also able to
display, in the aggregate tiddler, the dates when the corresponding
tiddlers were modified. Which, for an inexperienced person like me, is
great!
Yay! :-)


However, can there be a method to tag selected paragraphs, in a tiddler, in
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
such a way, that the tagging symbols (in this case, the two HEY's between
which the 'cherry' is located) would not be displayed in the original
tiddlers? I found that instead of using HEY, squeezing the seleceted text
between two lines of
@@color:white;HEY@@
prevents the word HEY from being displayed. But this seems to be a very
unelegant solution :)
There is no solution as general as I would prefer it, but this seems to
work;

Oh, <HEY>hello there<HEY> you rascal you.

I.e put the markers inside angle brackets.


<:-)
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'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-02 11:49:30 UTC
Permalink
Thank you, Mat!

There is no solution as general as I would prefer it, but this seems to
Post by Mat
work;
Oh, <HEY>hello there<HEY> you rascal you.
I.e put the markers inside angle brackets.
This is very elegant!

Now, the major drawback of the CherryPicker is that you cannot use macros
and some special characters in the same tiddler where the marks appear (for
example, you cannot put links to other tiddlers [except for the CamelCased
tiddler titles]).

I understand that the philosophy of tiddlers tells us that tiddlers have to
be as small as possible, so that it would be easier to make use of them,
e.g. tiddlywiki.com claims that:

When a tiddler seems as if it needs to contain subheadings, this is often a
Post by Mat
sign that it should in fact be split into several tiddlers.
However, I believe that, in our already fragmented world, constant
fragmentation is definitely not always a solution, and, moreover, can
indeed cause problems. This is why, I find the tools like CherryPicker to
be really important. Because they:

1. Do not discourage you from building more monolithic structures.
2. Encourage you to identify more relevant parts of those structures and
mark them.
3. Allow you to collect those parts (not just links to them) by creating
a possibility of building more interrelated and integral constructions.

Naturally, for those bigger monolithic structures, it is important to have
the full functionality of TiddlyWiki at one's disposal. So, the question
is, how could one possibly solve the known CherryPicker issue, that at its
current state, it is not allowed, in the same tiddler where the marks
appear, to use macrocalls, create links to tiddlers, etc.?!

Regards,

Vytas
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Diego Mesa
2018-04-01 15:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Wow Mat!!

Attention looks great! If you have the time, please make it a plugin and
lets get it on the main TW site!

Diego
Post by Mat
Hi Vytas
Yes, I made http://cherrypicker.tiddlyspot.com and later
http://attention.tiddlyspot.com for this purpose. I believe the latter is
more polished than the former. Also, I vaguely recall Thomas Elmiger made
some variant later and he is good at perfecting things.
It is, in deed, a functionality we need and one that is possibly even
expected by modern hashtagging and
<:-)
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Mat
2018-04-01 22:28:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Diego Mesa
Wow Mat!!
Attention looks great! If you have the time, please make it a plugin and
lets get it on the main TW site!
Thanks Diego. Considering how nothing is really put on the main
tiddlywiki.com site, but only references to it, I think it could be
referred to in its current state. I.e I don't think it has to be a proper
plugin and anyone is welcome to post a github pull request or however
things are added there. Now, it should probably be a plugin anyway but I'm
currently fiddling around with another project so it'll have to wait.

<:-)
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Jed Carty
2018-04-02 12:08:26 UTC
Permalink
This conversation has happened many times, but the conclusion has always
been the same. The power of tiddlywiki comes from having different
tiddlers, you can't have only one tiddler and use what is special about
tiddlywiki.

The way to do what you are talking about in tiddlywiki is to have a bunch
of small tiddlers that are displayed using a template. You can see an
example of this here
(https://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlyBook/#Alice’s%20Adventures%20In%20Wonderland),
each paragraph is a separate tiddler but they are all displayed inside a
single tiddler using a template. So you could gather together the first
paragraph of each chapter, or mark the chapters or paragraphs by subject or
however you want to do it and then see a list of them that fits whatever
criteria you are looking for.

Anything that you do that will let you do that in a single tiddler is going
to be equivalent to reinventing tiddlywiki with separate tiddlers inside a
single tiddler. You will have to have the equivalent of tags and field to
give each tiddler metadata so you can sort it, and something like a title
if you want to be able to reference a paragraph individually, and it will
have text.

The problem is an interface problem, we need to make a better interface so
that we can write one tiddler and have it automatically split up based on
markup (the text slicer plugin sort of does this already), not reinvent
tiddlywiki inside a single tiddler.
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'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-02 13:26:57 UTC
Permalink
Jed, I am new to TiddlyWiki. Is there a chance you could find a link to a
past conversation of this kind? That would be very interesting.

I see your point regarding the reinventing of "tiddlywiki within a single
tiddler". I think automatic splitting of the whole text into different
tiddlers would be an overkill for most purposes. Going along the lines of
what you said, a great alternative to Mat's method would be to have
macro/mark-up elements which would allow you to create and modify new
tiddlers within the edit-window of some existing tiddler. For example a
syntax of the following kind
<$NT[NewTiddler] tags[tag1,tag2]>Content of the new tiddler<$/NT>
could create a new tiddler named NewTiddler (or some automatically
generated name if not specified) and tagged with tag1 and tag2 tags. The
key feature would be the ability to edit the NewTiddler both from the
edit-window of the parent tiddler, and the edit-window of the NewTiddler.
However, I guess this is probably impossible without some core
modifications of TiddlyWiki..
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TonyM
2018-04-02 13:27:48 UTC
Permalink
Vytas,

I totaly support Jeds points.

Have you used the excise tool using the editor tool bar. This will help divide text into tiddlers while retaining a single view.

Regards
Tony
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Diego Mesa
2018-04-02 22:59:52 UTC
Permalink
I think all of this would be made much simpler if there was a quick and
easy way to add/edit tiddler fields. SOmething like this in the body
textarea of a tiddler:

(=myNewField
bl h
asd
sd
sf
sdf
=)

or in a special "field" textarea, collapsable right under the
textarea/body.

With this in place, yuo could easily crea/tedit/remove "fields" which are
in essence, structured/tagged portions of a tiddler (dont believe me, just
check a .tid file!)
Post by Mat
Vytas,
I totaly support Jeds points.
Have you used the excise tool using the editor tool bar. This will help
divide text into tiddlers while retaining a single view.
Regards
Tony
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zemoxian
2018-04-08 01:41:38 UTC
Permalink
This sounds similar to slices in TW2.
I used to add slices like

Description: *description of tiddler*

Then just the description could be transcluded in other tiddlers. You
could also transcluded sections using header titles. The slices
functionality seems to have been moved to data tiddlers in TW5 and section
references removed all together.

Slices were a little awkward to work with sometimes. If you didn't want
them visible in text you had to put them inside comments. Same with
sections. OTOH, this allowed you to put multiple templates in the same
tiddler and reference them individually. This is sort of like TW5 plugin
functionality, I guess.

I sort of took a break from TiddlyWiki between the transition from TW2 and
TW5 so my TW2 knowledge is hazy now. I suppose there are pros nd cons to
both methods.
Post by Diego Mesa
I think all of this would be made much simpler if there was a quick and
easy way to add/edit tiddler fields. SOmething like this in the body
(=myNewField
bl h
asd
sd
sf
sdf
=)
or in a special "field" textarea, collapsable right under the
textarea/body.
With this in place, yuo could easily crea/tedit/remove "fields" which are
in essence, structured/tagged portions of a tiddler (dont believe me, just
check a .tid file!)
Post by Mat
Vytas,
I totaly support Jeds points.
Have you used the excise tool using the editor tool bar. This will help
divide text into tiddlers while retaining a single view.
Regards
Tony
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-02 23:40:57 UTC
Permalink
I don't think most people want to wrangle 20+ little tiddlers just so they
can access one section inside an article. The old TWC had sections, and I
think a lot of us were flabbergasted that the "improved" TW5 didn't. The
old system works the way people actually think.

It might be different if there were better tools for moving, annotating,
deleting, and ordering small tiddlers, but there's not. How do you list a
bunch of tiddlers, keep them in order, move them around, without having to
open individual tiddlers to modify a sort field? Or create a massive list
field in a Tagging tiddler -- working in a field box shorter than this
sentence? How do you put them back into a single tiddler? How do you
prevent orphans? I'm sure someone could come up with various tools to
accomplish these tasks after the fact, but shouldn't these tools be in the
core if we're expected to routinely use them that way?

-- Mark
Post by Jed Carty
This conversation has happened many times, but the conclusion has always
been the same. The power of tiddlywiki comes from having different
tiddlers, you can't have only one tiddler and use what is special about
tiddlywiki.
The way to do what you are talking about in tiddlywiki is to have a bunch
of small tiddlers that are displayed using a template. You can see an
example of this here (
https://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlyBook/#Alice’s%20Adventures%20In%20Wonderland),
each paragraph is a separate tiddler but they are all displayed inside a
single tiddler using a template. So you could gather together the first
paragraph of each chapter, or mark the chapters or paragraphs by subject or
however you want to do it and then see a list of them that fits whatever
criteria you are looking for.
Anything that you do that will let you do that in a single tiddler is
going to be equivalent to reinventing tiddlywiki with separate tiddlers
inside a single tiddler. You will have to have the equivalent of tags and
field to give each tiddler metadata so you can sort it, and something like
a title if you want to be able to reference a paragraph individually, and
it will have text.
The problem is an interface problem, we need to make a better interface so
that we can write one tiddler and have it automatically split up based on
markup (the text slicer plugin sort of does this already), not reinvent
tiddlywiki inside a single tiddler.
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TonyM
2018-04-03 06:23:32 UTC
Permalink
Mark,

One solution to what you ask is to use a Draggable List of Tiddlers along
with Tobias's Preview Plugin so you can review the content on hover over
each tiddler link, so you can confirm where you want to position that
particular tiddler in a list of tiddlers.

The Source document can be excised into tiddlers tagged with the source
documents name, then after reordering you have another tiddler that
transcludes all tiddlers into it according to the Order from the Draging
operations (using the List field).

In this way you actually get to retain the Original order as well as see
your manipulated order. A Feature could be included to to retain original
tiddlers as well as edited ones to see before and After.

Advance Opportunities then arise, like multiple virtual documents that mix
and match content and presents it in different formats, such as a short and
long resume based on the same content.
Tiddlers could be created with a serial number (or use the created field?)
or have chapter and section fields, even need to edit flags etc...
Perhaps one could use one of the KanBan Board Solutions for organising text
within a document or chapter?

Regards
Tony
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I don't think most people want to wrangle 20+ little tiddlers just so
they can access one section inside an article. The old TWC had sections,
and I think a lot of us were flabbergasted that the "improved" TW5 didn't.
The old system works the way people actually think.
It might be different if there were better tools for moving, annotating,
deleting, and ordering small tiddlers, but there's not. How do you list a
bunch of tiddlers, keep them in order, move them around, without having to
open individual tiddlers to modify a sort field? Or create a massive list
field in a Tagging tiddler -- working in a field box shorter than this
sentence? How do you put them back into a single tiddler? How do you
prevent orphans? I'm sure someone could come up with various tools to
accomplish these tasks after the fact, but shouldn't these tools be in the
core if we're expected to routinely use them that way?
-- Mark
Post by Jed Carty
This conversation has happened many times, but the conclusion has always
been the same. The power of tiddlywiki comes from having different
tiddlers, you can't have only one tiddler and use what is special about
tiddlywiki.
The way to do what you are talking about in tiddlywiki is to have a bunch
of small tiddlers that are displayed using a template. You can see an
example of this here (
https://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlyBook/#Alice’s%20Adventures%20In%20Wonderland),
each paragraph is a separate tiddler but they are all displayed inside a
single tiddler using a template. So you could gather together the first
paragraph of each chapter, or mark the chapters or paragraphs by subject or
however you want to do it and then see a list of them that fits whatever
criteria you are looking for.
Anything that you do that will let you do that in a single tiddler is
going to be equivalent to reinventing tiddlywiki with separate tiddlers
inside a single tiddler. You will have to have the equivalent of tags and
field to give each tiddler metadata so you can sort it, and something like
a title if you want to be able to reference a paragraph individually, and
it will have text.
The problem is an interface problem, we need to make a better interface
so that we can write one tiddler and have it automatically split up based
on markup (the text slicer plugin sort of does this already), not reinvent
tiddlywiki inside a single tiddler.
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Diego Mesa
2018-04-03 14:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Hey Tony (and others)

What do you think about the idea/conceptualization of tiddler fields
already being a way to "tag" and "segment" one tiddler into structured
pieces? If you agree with that, wouldnt it make sense to make that job much
easier?

Just curious as to what others think.

Best,
Diego
Post by TonyM
Mark,
One solution to what you ask is to use a Draggable List of Tiddlers along
with Tobias's Preview Plugin so you can review the content on hover over
each tiddler link, so you can confirm where you want to position that
particular tiddler in a list of tiddlers.
The Source document can be excised into tiddlers tagged with the source
documents name, then after reordering you have another tiddler that
transcludes all tiddlers into it according to the Order from the Draging
operations (using the List field).
In this way you actually get to retain the Original order as well as see
your manipulated order. A Feature could be included to to retain original
tiddlers as well as edited ones to see before and After.
Advance Opportunities then arise, like multiple virtual documents that mix
and match content and presents it in different formats, such as a short and
long resume based on the same content.
Tiddlers could be created with a serial number (or use the created field?)
or have chapter and section fields, even need to edit flags etc...
Perhaps one could use one of the KanBan Board Solutions for organising
text within a document or chapter?
Regards
Tony
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I don't think most people want to wrangle 20+ little tiddlers just so
they can access one section inside an article. The old TWC had sections,
and I think a lot of us were flabbergasted that the "improved" TW5 didn't.
The old system works the way people actually think.
It might be different if there were better tools for moving, annotating,
deleting, and ordering small tiddlers, but there's not. How do you list a
bunch of tiddlers, keep them in order, move them around, without having to
open individual tiddlers to modify a sort field? Or create a massive list
field in a Tagging tiddler -- working in a field box shorter than this
sentence? How do you put them back into a single tiddler? How do you
prevent orphans? I'm sure someone could come up with various tools to
accomplish these tasks after the fact, but shouldn't these tools be in the
core if we're expected to routinely use them that way?
-- Mark
Post by Jed Carty
This conversation has happened many times, but the conclusion has always
been the same. The power of tiddlywiki comes from having different
tiddlers, you can't have only one tiddler and use what is special about
tiddlywiki.
The way to do what you are talking about in tiddlywiki is to have a
bunch of small tiddlers that are displayed using a template. You can see an
example of this here (
https://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlyBook/#Alice’s%20Adventures%20In%20Wonderland),
each paragraph is a separate tiddler but they are all displayed inside a
single tiddler using a template. So you could gather together the first
paragraph of each chapter, or mark the chapters or paragraphs by subject or
however you want to do it and then see a list of them that fits whatever
criteria you are looking for.
Anything that you do that will let you do that in a single tiddler is
going to be equivalent to reinventing tiddlywiki with separate tiddlers
inside a single tiddler. You will have to have the equivalent of tags and
field to give each tiddler metadata so you can sort it, and something like
a title if you want to be able to reference a paragraph individually, and
it will have text.
The problem is an interface problem, we need to make a better interface
so that we can write one tiddler and have it automatically split up based
on markup (the text slicer plugin sort of does this already), not reinvent
tiddlywiki inside a single tiddler.
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'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-03 16:46:28 UTC
Permalink
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler by its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links, images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of that primary tiddler.

Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate paragraphs by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the editing very cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit them and then come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-03 17:18:07 UTC
Permalink
When you excise you have the choice of writing over with a macro. Someone
could replace the default macro ($:/core/macros/translink) with one that
would allow you to edit the transclusion in place. Maybe with a reveal/hide
switch so the text is only visible when you want it. There's still fiddly
stuff you have to do when doing the excision (providing the title,
specifying the macro).

-- Mark
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler by its
fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links, images..),
or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG AS you have
the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of that primary
tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate paragraphs by
excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the editing very
cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit them and then
come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
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'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-05 20:47:04 UTC
Permalink
I am not sure, whether I should start a new discussion, so I'll ask the
question the more experienced community members here:

Is it (in principle) possible to EDIT the text of a tiddler from the
EDIT-WINDOW of some other tiddler?
If it is in principle possible, could somebody describe what should I, in
the first place, learn about TiddlyWiki fundamentals to be able to achieve
something like that?

Thank you!
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Stephan Hradek
2018-04-06 07:20:58 UTC
Permalink
It is possible to edit the content of a tiddler in the VIEW Window of
another tiddler.

So if you have one tidler consistiong of transclusions of other tiddlers,
it could look like this:

{{My first Paraggraph||trans-edit}}


{{My second Paraggraph||trans-edit}}


{{My third Paraggraph||trans-edit}}


And then have a tiddler "trans-edit" which does the transclusion and also
inserts code for allowing editing of the transcluded tiddler in (for
example) a popup.
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Stephan Hradek
2018-04-06 08:40:23 UTC
Permalink
I've created a small example for you to reproduce on tiddlywiki.com

Create some paragraph tiddlers. I've called them A, B and C containing some Lorem
Ipsum text <http://lipsum.org>.

Example

AA
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Aliquam eget ex
nunc. Maecenas blandit efficitur erat a malesuada. Vivamus sit.
AA

Then I creted 2 tiddlers which are the "workhorses":

trans-editor:
<$edit-text tiddler=<<tiddler2edit>>/>

and trans-edit
<$list filter=<<currentTiddler>> variable="theTiddler">

<$button class="tc-btn-invisible tc-tiddlylink">
<$action-sendmessage $message="tm-modal" $param="trans-editor"
tiddler2edit=<<theTiddler>> />
{{$:/core/images/edit-button}}
</$button> <$transclude tiddler=<<theTiddler>> />

</$list>

Finally create your tiddler which will transclude all your paragraph
tiddlers:

{{
[[A]]
[[B]]
[[C]]
||
trans-edit
}}
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Thomas Elmiger
2018-04-06 18:53:38 UTC
Permalink
This looks like a cool concept, Stephan, thanks for sharing!

I will try it, when I find some time.

Cheers!
Thomas
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Birthe C
2018-04-07 09:08:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi Stephan,

That is really nice, thank you.

For trans-editor
<$edit-text tiddler=<<tiddler2edit>> class="full-width"/>


<style>
.full-width {width: 100%;}
</style>

Birthe
Post by Stephan Hradek
I've created a small example for you to reproduce on tiddlywiki.com
Create some paragraph tiddlers. I've called them A, B and C containing
some Lorem Ipsum text <http://lipsum.org>.
Example
AA
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Aliquam eget ex
nunc. Maecenas blandit efficitur erat a malesuada. Vivamus sit.
AA
<$edit-text tiddler=<<tiddler2edit>>/>
and trans-edit
<$list filter=<<currentTiddler>> variable="theTiddler">
<$button class="tc-btn-invisible tc-tiddlylink">
<$action-sendmessage $message="tm-modal" $param="trans-editor"
tiddler2edit=<<theTiddler>> />
{{$:/core/images/edit-button}}
</$button> <$transclude tiddler=<<theTiddler>> />
</$list>
Finally create your tiddler which will transclude all your paragraph
{{
[[A]]
[[B]]
[[C]]
||
trans-edit
}}
This will show all the paragraphs prepended with an edit-icon.
When you click it, a modal window will appear allowing you to edit the
content of the paragraph.
Tasks left for you: Create some nice CSS to make the edit window appear in
a size you like. Currently it's quite small.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-07 17:17:49 UTC
Permalink
That's a great idea! It would be helpful if it opened "taller" as well.

-- Mark
Post by Birthe C
Hi Stephan,
That is really nice, thank you.
For trans-editor
<$edit-text tiddler=<<tiddler2edit>> class="full-width"/>
<style>
.full-width {width: 100%;}
</style>
Birthe
Post by Stephan Hradek
I've created a small example for you to reproduce on tiddlywiki.com
Create some paragraph tiddlers. I've called them A, B and C containing
some Lorem Ipsum text <http://lipsum.org>.
Example
AA
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Aliquam eget ex
nunc. Maecenas blandit efficitur erat a malesuada. Vivamus sit.
AA
<$edit-text tiddler=<<tiddler2edit>>/>
and trans-edit
<$list filter=<<currentTiddler>> variable="theTiddler">
<$button class="tc-btn-invisible tc-tiddlylink">
<$action-sendmessage $message="tm-modal" $param="trans-editor"
tiddler2edit=<<theTiddler>> />
{{$:/core/images/edit-button}}
</$button> <$transclude tiddler=<<theTiddler>> />
</$list>
Finally create your tiddler which will transclude all your paragraph
{{
[[A]]
[[B]]
[[C]]
||
trans-edit
}}
This will show all the paragraphs prepended with an edit-icon.
When you click it, a modal window will appear allowing you to edit the
content of the paragraph.
Tasks left for you: Create some nice CSS to make the edit window appear
in a size you like. Currently it's quite small.
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'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-07 12:56:19 UTC
Permalink
Stephan,

thank you for supplying such a nice reply! This is probably the way I would
like to move along.

To improve my knowledge of TiddlyWiki, I'm trying to understand the code
pieces you supplied.
I believe, I more or less understand it, except for the exact way how the
variable <<currentTiddler>> is being used.

If I get it correctly, TiddlyWiki code is, in some sense, being run
continuously, and whenever it finds itself at the place of
{{[[A]][[B]][[C]]||trans-edit}}
it brings the titles A, B and C as values to the "trans-edit" piece of
code, which then provides the listing of the edit-buttons together with the
content of the A, B and C tiddlers.

However, what is happening when the the code of "trans-edit" is being run
independently, that is, when there are no tiddler titles provided for the
filter operator in the "trans-edit" tiddler? Do I understand it correctly,
that, in this case, the value of <<currentTiddler>> is "trans-edit" and
that is why the "trans-edit" tiddler tries to include itself into itself
and the result is: "Recursive transclusion error in transclude widget",
which I see in the view-window of "trans-edit"?

Is it alright to see this error or could it be somehow avoided?
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Stephan Hradek
2018-04-07 21:00:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
{{[[A]][[B]][[C]]||trans-edit}}
it brings the titles A, B and C as values to the "trans-edit" piece of
code,
Nope. It brings "[[A]][[B]][[C]]" as one tiddler title (in
<<currentTiddler>>) to trans-edit.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
which then provides the listing of the edit-buttons together with the
content of the A, B and C tiddlers.
The <$list> in trans-edit uses the currentTiddler title as a filter, thus
interpreting our string "[[A]][[B]][[C]]" as being the 3 tiddler titles A,
B and C.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
However, what is happening when the the code of "trans-edit" is being run
independently, that is, when there are no tiddler titles provided for the
filter operator in the "trans-edit" tiddler? Do I understand it correctly,
that, in this case, the value of <<currentTiddler>> is "trans-edit" and
that is why the "trans-edit" tiddler tries to include itself into itself
and the result is: "Recursive transclusion error in transclude widget",
which I see in the view-window of "trans-edit"?
That's correct.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
Is it alright to see this error or could it be somehow avoided?
If I'm not mistaken ths is okay and can be seen with some standard
templates in TW5 itself.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
By the way, is it correct, that the fact that "the code of tiddlers is
being run continuously", is responsible for the thing, that it will never
be possible to edit tiddlers from the EDIT-window of some other tiddler,
that is, you have to have a button to run the editting only once (and not
continuously)?
No. This is because the edit tiddler simply is not prepared for this. You
could create your own edit window, maybe, which could doe stuff like this.
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'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-08 12:14:25 UTC
Permalink
Stephan, thank you for replying to my questions!

zemoxian, your "barebones template" seems to be easy, but contains a lot!

JD, your paragraphs macro looks really nice. I find it very convenient, the
way the edit-window replaces the view-window of the paragraph and at the
same time you retain the view of all the other paragraphs!

Now, there is for me a lot to learn: navigator and reveal widgets, custom
edit/view templates, usage of buttons and so on. Wonderful!
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JD
2018-04-08 14:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Vytas! You might want to update your copy of the macro.

I just added an action to the save and cancel buttons that will
automatically delete the temporary tiddlers created.

for your reference: http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
Stephan, thank you for replying to my questions!
zemoxian, your "barebones template" seems to be easy, but contains a lot!
JD, your paragraphs macro looks really nice. I find it very convenient,
the way the edit-window replaces the view-window of the paragraph and at
the same time you retain the view of all the other paragraphs!
Now, there is for me a lot to learn: navigator and reveal widgets, custom
edit/view templates, usage of buttons and so on. Wonderful!
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JD
2018-04-07 15:06:11 UTC
Permalink
This is really cool!

I'd go with the reveal-widget (instead of a modal) to edit the paragraphs
in place, unless there's a con to that method?
Post by Stephan Hradek
I've created a small example for you to reproduce on tiddlywiki.com
Create some paragraph tiddlers. I've called them A, B and C containing
some Lorem Ipsum text <http://lipsum.org>.
Example
AA
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Aliquam eget ex
nunc. Maecenas blandit efficitur erat a malesuada. Vivamus sit.
AA
<$edit-text tiddler=<<tiddler2edit>>/>
and trans-edit
<$list filter=<<currentTiddler>> variable="theTiddler">
<$button class="tc-btn-invisible tc-tiddlylink">
<$action-sendmessage $message="tm-modal" $param="trans-editor"
tiddler2edit=<<theTiddler>> />
{{$:/core/images/edit-button}}
</$button> <$transclude tiddler=<<theTiddler>> />
</$list>
Finally create your tiddler which will transclude all your paragraph
{{
[[A]]
[[B]]
[[C]]
||
trans-edit
}}
This will show all the paragraphs prepended with an edit-icon.
When you click it, a modal window will appear allowing you to edit the
content of the paragraph.
Tasks left for you: Create some nice CSS to make the edit window appear in
a size you like. Currently it's quite small.
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Stephan Hradek
2018-04-07 21:01:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by JD
This is really cool!
I'd go with the reveal-widget (instead of a modal) to edit the paragraphs
in place, unless there's a con to that method?
I didn't use reveal because I got the feeling that it'll be too much code.
But I might be wrong.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-07 17:27:13 UTC
Permalink
I had no idea that you could apply a template to more than one tiddler at a
time. Is this in the documentation some place?

Thanks!
-- Mark
Post by Stephan Hradek
I've created a small example for you to reproduce on tiddlywiki.com
Create some paragraph tiddlers. I've called them A, B and C containing
some Lorem Ipsum text <http://lipsum.org>.
Example
AA
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Aliquam eget ex
nunc. Maecenas blandit efficitur erat a malesuada. Vivamus sit.
AA
<$edit-text tiddler=<<tiddler2edit>>/>
and trans-edit
<$list filter=<<currentTiddler>> variable="theTiddler">
<$button class="tc-btn-invisible tc-tiddlylink">
<$action-sendmessage $message="tm-modal" $param="trans-editor"
tiddler2edit=<<theTiddler>> />
{{$:/core/images/edit-button}}
</$button> <$transclude tiddler=<<theTiddler>> />
</$list>
Finally create your tiddler which will transclude all your paragraph
{{
[[A]]
[[B]]
[[C]]
||
trans-edit
}}
This will show all the paragraphs prepended with an edit-icon.
When you click it, a modal window will appear allowing you to edit the
content of the paragraph.
Tasks left for you: Create some nice CSS to make the edit window appear in
a size you like. Currently it's quite small.
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Stephan Hradek
2018-04-07 21:02:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I had no idea that you could apply a template to more than one tiddler at
a time. Is this in the documentation some place?
See my reply above: I simply provide just one tiddler title, which happens
to look like 3, to trans-edit. The usage of this title as a filter results
in the interpretation of this title as neing 3 tiddlers.

So no: It's not in the documentation because it need not be ;)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-07 21:32:39 UTC
Permalink
It's a very clever re-factoring of existing abilities, though. Maybe an
additional example in the "templates" part of the documentation would be in
order.

Thanks!
Mark
Post by Stephan Hradek
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I had no idea that you could apply a template to more than one tiddler at
a time. Is this in the documentation some place?
See my reply above: I simply provide just one tiddler title, which happens
to look like 3, to trans-edit. The usage of this title as a filter results
in the interpretation of this title as neing 3 tiddlers.
So no: It's not in the documentation because it need not be ;)
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Diego Mesa
2018-04-07 21:45:35 UTC
Permalink
I'd like to pause for a second here - this could be a really really cool
way to mirror something like wikipedia's edit capabilities where you can
edit sections of something.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
It's a very clever re-factoring of existing abilities, though. Maybe an
additional example in the "templates" part of the documentation would be in
order.
Thanks!
Mark
Post by Stephan Hradek
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I had no idea that you could apply a template to more than one tiddler
at a time. Is this in the documentation some place?
See my reply above: I simply provide just one tiddler title, which
happens to look like 3, to trans-edit. The usage of this title as a filter
results in the interpretation of this title as neing 3 tiddlers.
So no: It's not in the documentation because it need not be ;)
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Mat
2018-04-08 01:57:11 UTC
Permalink
Stephan - terrific stuff!
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
It's a very clever re-factoring of existing abilities, though. Maybe an
additional example in the "templates" part of the documentation would be in
order.
Not sure it is a "re-factoring" as much as an understanding: I thought the
prerequisite for a {{A||B}} was that the A is an *existing *tiddler, i.e
that the template transclusion "started" with tiddler A and then applied
template B to it. But apparently it can be a missing tiddler, i.e really a
just a string [of characters], because the template transclusion starts
with the template B and applies [the string] A to it. This is not clear in
the docs, AFAIK.

...but even with this knowledge it is extremely clever of Stephan to
realize it could be used in that context!


*More general solution*

Considering how A B C are intended as sub-sections for some tiddler (lets
call it "myarticle"), then instead of hard coding the sub-sections, i.e

{{[[A]] [[B]] [[C]]||trans-edit}}

you can have the sub-section tiddlers tagged "myarticle" and do something
like this:

\define transedit() {{$(taggedcurr)$||trans-edit}}

<$set name=taggedcurr filter="[tag<currentTiddler>]">
<<transedit>>
</$set>


Then, to almost automatically create articles, put this in a conditional
viewtemplate
<http://tobibeer.github.io/tb5/#Conditional%20ViewTemplate%20Section>. This
means that all (and only) tiddlers tagged e.g "article" will show the
sub-section aggregation.

<:-)
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Stephan Hradek
2018-04-08 05:48:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mat
Then, to almost automatically create articles, put this in a conditional
viewtemplate
<http://tobibeer.github.io/tb5/#Conditional%20ViewTemplate%20Section>. This
means that all (and only) tiddlers tagged e.g "article" will show the
sub-section aggregation.

 With the downside that you are not able to define their sequence.

You would need to have a field in each tiddler which would define the order
in which to transclude them and put a sort into your filter.

But I think you're making it too complicated.

Remember what I wrote? The "3 tiddler" are just one string which is used as
a filter. So why not use your filter instead of using the filter to create
a string and then using that string again as a filter? Want to try? Put
trans-edit again into tiddlywiki.com and create atiddler with this contents:

{{
[tag[TableOfContents]]
||
trans-edit
}}

Still: There is no order. You would need an order field in each tiddler and
then you could use something like:

{{
[tag[TableOfContents]sort[orderfield]]
||
trans-edit
}}
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Mat
2018-04-08 08:11:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephan Hradek
But I think you're making it too complicated.
Remember what I wrote? The "3 tiddler" are just one string which is used
as a filter. So why not use your filter instead of using the filter to
create a string and then using that string again as a filter? Want to try?
Put trans-edit again into tiddlywiki.com and create atiddler with this
*DOH! Brilliance again! Haha!!!*

<:-)
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Mat
2018-04-08 10:28:40 UTC
Permalink
Interrim step (at least for what I'm aiming for)

\define qualstate() <<qualify "$:/statet/$(theTiddler)$">>

\define transedit()
<$set name=currlist value="[tag<currentTiddler>]">
<$list filter=<<currlist>> variable="theTiddler">
<$wikify name=state text=<<qualstate>>>
<$reveal type="nomatch" state=<<state>> text="show">

<$button class="tc-btn-invisible tc-tiddlylink" set=<<state>>
setTo="show">{{$:/core/images/edit-button}}
</$button><$transclude tiddler=<<theTiddler>> />
</$reveal>
<$reveal type="match" state=<<state>> text="show">

<$button set=<<state>> setTo="hide" class="tc-btn-invisible
tc-tiddlylink">{{$:/core/images/edit-button}}
</$button>

<$edit-text tiddler=<<theTiddler>>/>

</$reveal>

</$wikify>
</$list>
</$set>
\end

My intention is to style the editor as per Birthes note above but also the
edit button so that it floats on the left rather than in the text area and
so that this button only shows when hovering the text section. Make the
edit icon faint until section hover.

Actually, this is beginning to resemble one of my zillion unpublished
projects, humbly called SuperTiddlers <Interrim step (at least for what I'm
aiming for) \define qualstate() <<qualify "$:/statet/$(theTiddler)$">>
\define transedit() <$set name=currlist value="[tag<currentTiddler>]">
<$list filter=<<currlist>> variable="theTiddler"> <$wikify name=state
text=<<qualstate>>> <$reveal type="nomatch" state=<<state>> text="show">
<$button class="tc-btn-invisible tc-tiddlylink" set=<<state>>
setTo="show">{{$:/core/images/edit-button}} </$button><$transclude
tiddler=<<theTiddler>> /> </$reveal> <$reveal type="match" state=<<state>>
text="show"> <$button set=<<state>> setTo="hide" class="tc-btn-invisible
tc-tiddlylink">{{$:/core/images/edit-button}} </$button> <$edit-text
tiddler=<<theTiddler>>/> </$reveal> </$wikify> </$list> </$set> \end My
intention is to style the editor as per Birthes note above but also the
edit button so that it floats on the left rather than in the text area and
so that this button only shows when hovering the text section. Make the
edit icon faint until section hover. Actually, this is beginning to
resemble one of my zillion unpublished projects, humbly called
SuperTiddlers.> (unpublished because it is not ready, as you'll note if you
go there). The concept consists of several ideas, but the mainthing is to
transclude other tiddlers into one but also in edit mode with editors for
those other tiddlers. One particular idea is to apply this to split up
stylesheets instead of having the current monolithic mammoth. But overall
the purpose is to assemble linear narrative tiddlers. BTW that project was
a while ago so there may be other less relevant bits there also. It was
intended for a more full conceptual 'edition'.


<:-)
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zemoxian
2018-04-08 01:58:26 UTC
Permalink
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a couple of
templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This is
actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler by its
fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links, images..),
or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG AS you have
the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of that primary
tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate paragraphs by
excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the editing very
cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit them and then
come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
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zemoxian
2018-04-08 03:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Here's a barebones template to start from:


<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]" template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate"
emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />
</$navigator>

You can create custom templates to replace $:/core/ui/EditTemplate and
$:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler templates with the required
functionality.

For example the view template could be as simple as:


<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>

The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs or
sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a couple of
templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This is
actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler by its
fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links, images..),
or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG AS you have
the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of that primary
tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate paragraphs
by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the editing very
cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit them and then
come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
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JD
2018-04-08 04:09:28 UTC
Permalink
I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing, before I
read your post, and now I feel stupid lol

Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here
http://j.d.test2.tiddlyspot.com/

But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner
Post by zemoxian
<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]" template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate"
emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />
</$navigator>
You can create custom templates to replace $:/core/ui/EditTemplate and
$:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler templates with the required
functionality.
<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>
The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs or
sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a couple of
templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This is
actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler by its
fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links, images..),
or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG AS you have
the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of that primary
tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate paragraphs
by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the editing very
cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit them and then
come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
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David Gifford
2018-04-08 13:43:24 UTC
Permalink
This is so cool I just added it to the TiddlyWiki toolmap under 'Writing
and editing - transclusion'
Post by JD
I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing, before I
read your post, and now I feel stupid lol
Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here
http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/
But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner
EDIT: corrected URL
Post by zemoxian
<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]" template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate"
emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />
</$navigator>
You can create custom templates to replace $:/core/ui/EditTemplate and
$:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler templates with the required
functionality.
<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>
The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs or
sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a couple of
templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This is
actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler by
its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links,
images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG
AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of
that primary tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate paragraphs
by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the editing very
cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit them and then
come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
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JD
2018-04-08 14:45:14 UTC
Permalink
Hey thanks!

I think this is similar to Mat's concept! I'm looking forward to his
SuperTiddlers release 🀩
Post by David Gifford
This is so cool I just added it to the TiddlyWiki toolmap under 'Writing
and editing - transclusion'
Post by JD
I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing, before I
read your post, and now I feel stupid lol
Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here
http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/
But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner
EDIT: corrected URL
Post by zemoxian
<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]" template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate"
emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />
</$navigator>
You can create custom templates to replace $:/core/ui/EditTemplate and
$:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler templates with the required
functionality.
<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>
The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs or
sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a couple of
templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This is
actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler by
its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links,
images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG
AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of
that primary tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate
paragraphs by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the
editing very cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit
them and then come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
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TonyM
2018-04-08 22:30:47 UTC
Permalink
JD,

I just tried this and it is very helpful. Thanks for the demo.

I just applied it to a list of issues (items tagged Issues) and realised It
would be helpful to list the sub tiddlers.

I have more ideas and some ideas about how to approach it, if you were to
develop it further but as you say this conversation is already under way.

It seems a somewhat simpler approach is down this path.


Regards
Tony
Post by JD
I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing, before I
read your post, and now I feel stupid lol
Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here
http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/
But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner
EDIT: corrected URL
Post by zemoxian
<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]" template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate"
emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />
</$navigator>
You can create custom templates to replace $:/core/ui/EditTemplate and
$:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler templates with the required
functionality.
<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>
The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs or
sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a couple of
templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This is
actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler by
its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links,
images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG
AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of
that primary tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate paragraphs
by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the editing very
cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit them and then
come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
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JD
2018-04-09 12:24:26 UTC
Permalink
Hey Tony, I was thinking of adding "subtiddler" as another optional
parameter, then going along these lines:

<$list filter="$filter$" variable="parItem">
<$transclude tiddler=<<parItem>> subtiddler="$subtiddler$"/>
</$list>

As you can see, I'm not quite imaginative enough to think of more than that
😅. Please do share your ideas, and use the code present on the demo site
to build something better (we can build them together, too, I just don't
know how collabs work).

I'm also still mulling over using the Navigator widget, which requires the
creation of additional tiddlers, with the absolute pro of not having to
rely on temporary tiddlers... 🀔
Post by TonyM
JD,
I just tried this and it is very helpful. Thanks for the demo.
I just applied it to a list of issues (items tagged Issues) and realised
It would be helpful to list the sub tiddlers.
I have more ideas and some ideas about how to approach it, if you were to
develop it further but as you say this conversation is already under way.
It seems a somewhat simpler approach is down this path.
Regards
Tony
Post by JD
I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing, before I
read your post, and now I feel stupid lol
Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here
http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/
But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner
EDIT: corrected URL
Post by zemoxian
<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]" template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate"
emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />
</$navigator>
You can create custom templates to replace $:/core/ui/EditTemplate and
$:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler templates with the required
functionality.
<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>
The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs or
sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a couple of
templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This is
actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler by
its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links,
images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG
AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of
that primary tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate
paragraphs by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the
editing very cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit
them and then come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
--
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TonyM
2018-04-10 00:17:58 UTC
Permalink
JD,

Should we be using a new thread to collaborate otherwise we are somewhat
hijacking the thread?

Of note is I am using filters such as "[tag[WhitePaper]]" where it would be
nice to either include all tiddlers tagged by the tiddlers that are tagged
by WhitePaper like the Table of Contents macro

I think there would be value being able to specify more than one filter as
you suggest.

For the moment I am just thinking will the second filter be wrapped inside
the first?

Imagine filter1 filter2 filter3 = chapter section paragraph

So when listing paragraphs we only want to be listing those with the same
chapter and section
And ideally each filter will provide the sort order.

I will return to this soon.

Tony
Post by JD
Hey Tony, I was thinking of adding "subtiddler" as another optional
<$list filter="$filter$" variable="parItem">
<$transclude tiddler=<<parItem>> subtiddler="$subtiddler$"/>
</$list>
As you can see, I'm not quite imaginative enough to think of more than
that 😅. Please do share your ideas, and use the code present on the demo
site to build something better (we can build them together, too, I just
don't know how collabs work).
I'm also still mulling over using the Navigator widget, which requires the
creation of additional tiddlers, with the absolute pro of not having to
rely on temporary tiddlers... 🀔
Post by TonyM
JD,
I just tried this and it is very helpful. Thanks for the demo.
I just applied it to a list of issues (items tagged Issues) and realised
It would be helpful to list the sub tiddlers.
I have more ideas and some ideas about how to approach it, if you were to
develop it further but as you say this conversation is already under way.
It seems a somewhat simpler approach is down this path.
Regards
Tony
Post by JD
I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing, before
I read your post, and now I feel stupid lol
Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here
http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/
But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner
EDIT: corrected URL
Post by zemoxian
<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]" template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate"
emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />
</$navigator>
You can create custom templates to replace $:/core/ui/EditTemplate
and $:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler templates with the required
functionality.
<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>
The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs or
sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a couple
of templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This is
actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler by
its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links,
images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG
AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of
that primary tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate
paragraphs by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the
editing very cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit
them and then come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
--
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Stephan Hradek
2018-04-10 05:17:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by TonyM
JD,
Should we be using a new thread to collaborate otherwise we are somewhat
hijacking the thread?
Isn't this something for the TiddlyWikiDev group?
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TonyM
2018-04-10 06:32:36 UTC
Permalink
Stephen,

I suppose in some ways it could be but given this can be done with macros
not plugins and not Javascript it is more likely to provide info regular
users can use.

Of late even some serious technical issues that I would have thought
belonged in the Dev group can be found here.

Regards
Tony
Post by Stephan Hradek
Post by TonyM
JD,
Should we be using a new thread to collaborate otherwise we are somewhat
hijacking the thread?
Isn't this something for the TiddlyWikiDev group?
--
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JD
2018-04-10 13:17:45 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tony, you mean, like a full-blown outline, right?

If that's so, I think, maybe, we can use the TOC template for this. And
instead of transcluding the title, we transclude the body of the text
(while still following the tag-tree structure). What do you think?

My contribution in this will be slow during the weekdays (9 - 5 job + lots
of overtime gets in the way)

This is exciting stuff. I'm thinking of using this to write a novelette.
Post by TonyM
JD,
Should we be using a new thread to collaborate otherwise we are somewhat
hijacking the thread?
Of note is I am using filters such as "[tag[WhitePaper]]" where it would
be nice to either include all tiddlers tagged by the tiddlers that are
tagged by WhitePaper like the Table of Contents macro
I think there would be value being able to specify more than one filter as
you suggest.
For the moment I am just thinking will the second filter be wrapped inside
the first?
Imagine filter1 filter2 filter3 = chapter section paragraph
So when listing paragraphs we only want to be listing those with the same
chapter and section
And ideally each filter will provide the sort order.
I will return to this soon.
Tony
Post by JD
Hey Tony, I was thinking of adding "subtiddler" as another optional
<$list filter="$filter$" variable="parItem">
<$transclude tiddler=<<parItem>> subtiddler="$subtiddler$"/>
</$list>
As you can see, I'm not quite imaginative enough to think of more than
that 😅. Please do share your ideas, and use the code present on the
demo site to build something better (we can build them together, too, I
just don't know how collabs work).
I'm also still mulling over using the Navigator widget, which requires
the creation of additional tiddlers, with the absolute pro of not having to
rely on temporary tiddlers... 🀔
Post by TonyM
JD,
I just tried this and it is very helpful. Thanks for the demo.
I just applied it to a list of issues (items tagged Issues) and realised
It would be helpful to list the sub tiddlers.
I have more ideas and some ideas about how to approach it, if you were
to develop it further but as you say this conversation is already under way.
It seems a somewhat simpler approach is down this path.
Regards
Tony
Post by JD
I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing, before
I read your post, and now I feel stupid lol
Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here
http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/
But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner
EDIT: corrected URL
Post by zemoxian
<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]" template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate"
emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />
</$navigator>
You can create custom templates to replace $:/core/ui/EditTemplate
and $:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler templates with the required
functionality.
<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>
The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs or
sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a couple
of templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This is
actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler by
its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links,
images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG
AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of
that primary tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate
paragraphs by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the
editing very cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit
them and then come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
--
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David Gifford
2018-04-10 13:25:32 UTC
Permalink
Seems like a lot of effort when there are better tools for writing and
outlining, like Dynalist or Workflowy.

David Gifford
Mexico team leader, Mexico City

*Resonate Global Mission*
*Engaging People. Embracing Christ.*
A Ministry of the Christian Reformed Church
resonateglobalmission.org
Post by JD
Hi Tony, you mean, like a full-blown outline, right?
If that's so, I think, maybe, we can use the TOC template for this. And
instead of transcluding the title, we transclude the body of the text
(while still following the tag-tree structure). What do you think?
My contribution in this will be slow during the weekdays (9 - 5 job + lots
of overtime gets in the way)
This is exciting stuff. I'm thinking of using this to write a novelette.
Post by TonyM
JD,
Should we be using a new thread to collaborate otherwise we are somewhat
hijacking the thread?
Of note is I am using filters such as "[tag[WhitePaper]]" where it would
be nice to either include all tiddlers tagged by the tiddlers that are
tagged by WhitePaper like the Table of Contents macro
I think there would be value being able to specify more than one filter
as you suggest.
For the moment I am just thinking will the second filter be wrapped
inside the first?
Imagine filter1 filter2 filter3 = chapter section paragraph
So when listing paragraphs we only want to be listing those with the same
chapter and section
And ideally each filter will provide the sort order.
I will return to this soon.
Tony
Post by JD
Hey Tony, I was thinking of adding "subtiddler" as another optional
<$list filter="$filter$" variable="parItem">
<$transclude tiddler=<<parItem>> subtiddler="$subtiddler$"/>
</$list>
As you can see, I'm not quite imaginative enough to think of more than
that 😅. Please do share your ideas, and use the code present on the
demo site to build something better (we can build them together, too, I
just don't know how collabs work).
I'm also still mulling over using the Navigator widget, which requires
the creation of additional tiddlers, with the absolute pro of not having to
rely on temporary tiddlers... 🀔
Post by TonyM
JD,
I just tried this and it is very helpful. Thanks for the demo.
I just applied it to a list of issues (items tagged Issues) and
realised It would be helpful to list the sub tiddlers.
I have more ideas and some ideas about how to approach it, if you were
to develop it further but as you say this conversation is already under way.
It seems a somewhat simpler approach is down this path.
Regards
Tony
Post by JD
I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing,
before I read your post, and now I feel stupid lol
Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here
http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/
But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner
EDIT: corrected URL
Post by zemoxian
<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]" template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate" emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}}
/>
</$navigator>
You can create custom templates to replace $:/core/ui/EditTemplate
and $:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler templates with the required
functionality.
<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>
The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs or
sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a couple
of templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This is
actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler
by its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links,
images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG
AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of
that primary tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate
paragraphs by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the
editing very cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit
them and then come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
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JD
2018-04-10 13:34:06 UTC
Permalink
Haha! 😅 Oh well... sometimes the tool creation is as exciting as the use
of the tool itself, at least for me. I get to know Tiddlywiki more with all
these toying around.
Post by David Gifford
Seems like a lot of effort when there are better tools for writing and
outlining, like Dynalist or Workflowy.
David Gifford
Mexico team leader, Mexico City
*Resonate Global Mission*
*Engaging People. Embracing Christ.*
A Ministry of the Christian Reformed Church
resonateglobalmission.org
Post by JD
Hi Tony, you mean, like a full-blown outline, right?
If that's so, I think, maybe, we can use the TOC template for this. And
instead of transcluding the title, we transclude the body of the text
(while still following the tag-tree structure). What do you think?
My contribution in this will be slow during the weekdays (9 - 5 job +
lots of overtime gets in the way)
This is exciting stuff. I'm thinking of using this to write a novelette.
Post by TonyM
JD,
Should we be using a new thread to collaborate otherwise we are somewhat
hijacking the thread?
Of note is I am using filters such as "[tag[WhitePaper]]" where it would
be nice to either include all tiddlers tagged by the tiddlers that are
tagged by WhitePaper like the Table of Contents macro
I think there would be value being able to specify more than one filter
as you suggest.
For the moment I am just thinking will the second filter be wrapped
inside the first?
Imagine filter1 filter2 filter3 = chapter section paragraph
So when listing paragraphs we only want to be listing those with the
same chapter and section
And ideally each filter will provide the sort order.
I will return to this soon.
Tony
Post by JD
Hey Tony, I was thinking of adding "subtiddler" as another optional
<$list filter="$filter$" variable="parItem">
<$transclude tiddler=<<parItem>> subtiddler="$subtiddler$"/>
</$list>
As you can see, I'm not quite imaginative enough to think of more than
that 😅. Please do share your ideas, and use the code present on the
demo site to build something better (we can build them together, too, I
just don't know how collabs work).
I'm also still mulling over using the Navigator widget, which requires
the creation of additional tiddlers, with the absolute pro of not having to
rely on temporary tiddlers... 🀔
Post by TonyM
JD,
I just tried this and it is very helpful. Thanks for the demo.
I just applied it to a list of issues (items tagged Issues) and
realised It would be helpful to list the sub tiddlers.
I have more ideas and some ideas about how to approach it, if you were
to develop it further but as you say this conversation is already under way.
It seems a somewhat simpler approach is down this path.
Regards
Tony
Post by JD
I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing,
before I read your post, and now I feel stupid lol
Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here
http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/
But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner
EDIT: corrected URL
Post by zemoxian
<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]" template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate"
emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />
</$navigator>
You can create custom templates to replace $:/core/ui/EditTemplate
and $:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler templates with the
required functionality.
<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>
The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs or
sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a
couple of templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This
is actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler
by its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links,
images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG
AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of
that primary tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate
paragraphs by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the
editing very cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit
them and then come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-10 16:51:31 UTC
Permalink
Workflowy looks like it decided to rest on it's laurels before it had any.

For the price of Dynalist, you could get two subscriptions to Evernote.

None of the cloud-based services seem to promise client-side encryption.

An outlining tool built on TW might be the killer app (edition) for TW that
everyone keeps talking about. I've started on my own "TWFlowy" once or
twice, built on the TOC macro. Someone who knew what they were doing could
probably come up with something really nice, with the security of local
files and the flexibility of TW.

-- Mark
Post by David Gifford
Seems like a lot of effort when there are better tools for writing and
outlining, like Dynalist or Workflowy.
David Gifford
Mexico team leader, Mexico City
*Resonate Global Mission*
*Engaging People. Embracing Christ.*
A Ministry of the Christian Reformed Church
resonateglobalmission.org
Post by JD
Hi Tony, you mean, like a full-blown outline, right?
If that's so, I think, maybe, we can use the TOC template for this. And
instead of transcluding the title, we transclude the body of the text
(while still following the tag-tree structure). What do you think?
My contribution in this will be slow during the weekdays (9 - 5 job +
lots of overtime gets in the way)
This is exciting stuff. I'm thinking of using this to write a novelette.
Post by TonyM
JD,
Should we be using a new thread to collaborate otherwise we are somewhat
hijacking the thread?
Of note is I am using filters such as "[tag[WhitePaper]]" where it would
be nice to either include all tiddlers tagged by the tiddlers that are
tagged by WhitePaper like the Table of Contents macro
I think there would be value being able to specify more than one filter
as you suggest.
For the moment I am just thinking will the second filter be wrapped
inside the first?
Imagine filter1 filter2 filter3 = chapter section paragraph
So when listing paragraphs we only want to be listing those with the
same chapter and section
And ideally each filter will provide the sort order.
I will return to this soon.
Tony
Post by JD
Hey Tony, I was thinking of adding "subtiddler" as another optional
<$list filter="$filter$" variable="parItem">
<$transclude tiddler=<<parItem>> subtiddler="$subtiddler$"/>
</$list>
As you can see, I'm not quite imaginative enough to think of more than
that 😅. Please do share your ideas, and use the code present on the
demo site to build something better (we can build them together, too, I
just don't know how collabs work).
I'm also still mulling over using the Navigator widget, which requires
the creation of additional tiddlers, with the absolute pro of not having to
rely on temporary tiddlers... 🀔
Post by TonyM
JD,
I just tried this and it is very helpful. Thanks for the demo.
I just applied it to a list of issues (items tagged Issues) and
realised It would be helpful to list the sub tiddlers.
I have more ideas and some ideas about how to approach it, if you were
to develop it further but as you say this conversation is already under way.
It seems a somewhat simpler approach is down this path.
Regards
Tony
Post by JD
I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing,
before I read your post, and now I feel stupid lol
Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here
http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/
But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner
EDIT: corrected URL
Post by zemoxian
<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]" template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate"
emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />
</$navigator>
You can create custom templates to replace $:/core/ui/EditTemplate
and $:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler templates with the
required functionality.
<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>
The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs or
sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a
couple of templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This
is actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler
by its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links,
images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG
AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of
that primary tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate
paragraphs by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the
editing very cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit
them and then come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
--
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Diego Mesa
2018-04-10 17:24:55 UTC
Permalink
I 100% agree with you Mark that a Dynalist built into TW would be a killer
app. I also think the same about Anki, and am working with Simon to
achieve that as well!

If we could get one or two killer, easy to use and easy to follow
"applications" built into TW like that, I think it will do much to bring TW
to a much larger audience.

On a related note, I have personally built a Paper/Reference management
system into TW that I am happy with, and have in the back of my mind to
distil into a plugin/edition for demonstration as well.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Workflowy looks like it decided to rest on it's laurels before it had any.
For the price of Dynalist, you could get two subscriptions to Evernote.
None of the cloud-based services seem to promise client-side encryption.
An outlining tool built on TW might be the killer app (edition) for TW
that everyone keeps talking about. I've started on my own "TWFlowy" once
or twice, built on the TOC macro. Someone who knew what they were doing
could probably come up with something really nice, with the security of
local files and the flexibility of TW.
-- Mark
Post by David Gifford
Seems like a lot of effort when there are better tools for writing and
outlining, like Dynalist or Workflowy.
David Gifford
Mexico team leader, Mexico City
*Resonate Global Mission*
*Engaging People. Embracing Christ.*
A Ministry of the Christian Reformed Church
resonateglobalmission.org
Post by JD
Hi Tony, you mean, like a full-blown outline, right?
If that's so, I think, maybe, we can use the TOC template for this. And
instead of transcluding the title, we transclude the body of the text
(while still following the tag-tree structure). What do you think?
My contribution in this will be slow during the weekdays (9 - 5 job +
lots of overtime gets in the way)
This is exciting stuff. I'm thinking of using this to write a novelette.
Post by TonyM
JD,
Should we be using a new thread to collaborate otherwise we are
somewhat hijacking the thread?
Of note is I am using filters such as "[tag[WhitePaper]]" where it
would be nice to either include all tiddlers tagged by the tiddlers that
are tagged by WhitePaper like the Table of Contents macro
I think there would be value being able to specify more than one filter
as you suggest.
For the moment I am just thinking will the second filter be wrapped
inside the first?
Imagine filter1 filter2 filter3 = chapter section paragraph
So when listing paragraphs we only want to be listing those with the
same chapter and section
And ideally each filter will provide the sort order.
I will return to this soon.
Tony
Post by JD
Hey Tony, I was thinking of adding "subtiddler" as another optional
<$list filter="$filter$" variable="parItem">
<$transclude tiddler=<<parItem>> subtiddler="$subtiddler$"/>
</$list>
As you can see, I'm not quite imaginative enough to think of more than
that 😅. Please do share your ideas, and use the code present on the
demo site to build something better (we can build them together, too, I
just don't know how collabs work).
I'm also still mulling over using the Navigator widget, which requires
the creation of additional tiddlers, with the absolute pro of not having to
rely on temporary tiddlers... 🀔
Post by TonyM
JD,
I just tried this and it is very helpful. Thanks for the demo.
I just applied it to a list of issues (items tagged Issues) and
realised It would be helpful to list the sub tiddlers.
I have more ideas and some ideas about how to approach it, if you
were to develop it further but as you say this conversation is already
under way.
It seems a somewhat simpler approach is down this path.
Regards
Tony
Post by JD
I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing,
before I read your post, and now I feel stupid lol
Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here
http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/
But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner
EDIT: corrected URL
Post by zemoxian
<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]" template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate"
emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />
</$navigator>
You can create custom templates to replace $:/core/ui/EditTemplate
and $:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler templates with the
required functionality.
<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>
The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs or
sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a
couple of templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This
is actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler
by its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links,
images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG
AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of
that primary tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate
paragraphs by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the
editing very cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit
them and then come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-10 17:38:52 UTC
Permalink
I'm not as convinced with Anki. Anki is already free, open-source, and
well-written. Your data may be kept in the cloud, but unless you're a spy
no one is going to be interested in your language study progress.

How about a bookmark app that you could take with you? Especially if it
were possible to capture and store small thumbprints of web-pages.

-- Mark
Post by Diego Mesa
I 100% agree with you Mark that a Dynalist built into TW would be a killer
app. I also think the same about Anki, and am working with Simon to
achieve that as well!
If we could get one or two killer, easy to use and easy to follow
"applications" built into TW like that, I think it will do much to bring TW
to a much larger audience.
On a related note, I have personally built a Paper/Reference management
system into TW that I am happy with, and have in the back of my mind to
distil into a plugin/edition for demonstration as well.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Workflowy looks like it decided to rest on it's laurels before it had any.
For the price of Dynalist, you could get two subscriptions to Evernote.
None of the cloud-based services seem to promise client-side encryption.
An outlining tool built on TW might be the killer app (edition) for TW
that everyone keeps talking about. I've started on my own "TWFlowy" once
or twice, built on the TOC macro. Someone who knew what they were doing
could probably come up with something really nice, with the security of
local files and the flexibility of TW.
-- Mark
Post by David Gifford
Seems like a lot of effort when there are better tools for writing and
outlining, like Dynalist or Workflowy.
David Gifford
Mexico team leader, Mexico City
*Resonate Global Mission*
*Engaging People. Embracing Christ.*
A Ministry of the Christian Reformed Church
resonateglobalmission.org
Post by JD
Hi Tony, you mean, like a full-blown outline, right?
If that's so, I think, maybe, we can use the TOC template for this. And
instead of transcluding the title, we transclude the body of the text
(while still following the tag-tree structure). What do you think?
My contribution in this will be slow during the weekdays (9 - 5 job +
lots of overtime gets in the way)
This is exciting stuff. I'm thinking of using this to write a novelette.
Post by TonyM
JD,
Should we be using a new thread to collaborate otherwise we are
somewhat hijacking the thread?
Of note is I am using filters such as "[tag[WhitePaper]]" where it
would be nice to either include all tiddlers tagged by the tiddlers that
are tagged by WhitePaper like the Table of Contents macro
I think there would be value being able to specify more than one
filter as you suggest.
For the moment I am just thinking will the second filter be wrapped
inside the first?
Imagine filter1 filter2 filter3 = chapter section paragraph
So when listing paragraphs we only want to be listing those with the
same chapter and section
And ideally each filter will provide the sort order.
I will return to this soon.
Tony
Post by JD
Hey Tony, I was thinking of adding "subtiddler" as another optional
<$list filter="$filter$" variable="parItem">
<$transclude tiddler=<<parItem>> subtiddler="$subtiddler$"/>
</$list>
As you can see, I'm not quite imaginative enough to think of more
than that 😅. Please do share your ideas, and use the code present
on the demo site to build something better (we can build them together,
too, I just don't know how collabs work).
I'm also still mulling over using the Navigator widget, which
requires the creation of additional tiddlers, with the absolute pro of not
having to rely on temporary tiddlers... 🀔
Post by TonyM
JD,
I just tried this and it is very helpful. Thanks for the demo.
I just applied it to a list of issues (items tagged Issues) and
realised It would be helpful to list the sub tiddlers.
I have more ideas and some ideas about how to approach it, if you
were to develop it further but as you say this conversation is already
under way.
It seems a somewhat simpler approach is down this path.
Regards
Tony
Post by JD
I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing,
before I read your post, and now I feel stupid lol
Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here
http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/
But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner
EDIT: corrected URL
Post by zemoxian
<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]"
template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate" editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate"
emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />
</$navigator>
You can create custom templates to replace
$:/core/ui/EditTemplate and $:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler
templates with the required functionality.
<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>
The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs
or sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a
couple of templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This
is actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one
tiddler by its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts,
links, images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler,
AS LONG AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the
edit-window of that primary tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate
paragraphs by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the
editing very cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit
them and then come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
--
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Diego Mesa
2018-04-10 18:03:04 UTC
Permalink
Mark,

I remember we had this conversation on another thread when I brought up
Anki as well lol. I'd summarize that, IMO, if you buy into the TW
philosophy that its your external brain - that you place all information
that is somewhat important to you into TW - it only makes sense that it
would have some mechanism to help you remember certain key pieces.

Add onto that that its completely open source and lets you *completely*
customize what any "card"/question can act and look like, it seems like a
no-brainer to me!

Diego
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I'm not as convinced with Anki. Anki is already free, open-source, and
well-written. Your data may be kept in the cloud, but unless you're a spy
no one is going to be interested in your language study progress.
How about a bookmark app that you could take with you? Especially if it
were possible to capture and store small thumbprints of web-pages.
-- Mark
Post by Diego Mesa
I 100% agree with you Mark that a Dynalist built into TW would be a
killer app. I also think the same about Anki, and am working with Simon to
achieve that as well!
If we could get one or two killer, easy to use and easy to follow
"applications" built into TW like that, I think it will do much to bring TW
to a much larger audience.
On a related note, I have personally built a Paper/Reference management
system into TW that I am happy with, and have in the back of my mind to
distil into a plugin/edition for demonstration as well.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Workflowy looks like it decided to rest on it's laurels before it had any.
For the price of Dynalist, you could get two subscriptions to Evernote.
None of the cloud-based services seem to promise client-side encryption.
An outlining tool built on TW might be the killer app (edition) for TW
that everyone keeps talking about. I've started on my own "TWFlowy" once
or twice, built on the TOC macro. Someone who knew what they were doing
could probably come up with something really nice, with the security of
local files and the flexibility of TW.
-- Mark
Post by David Gifford
Seems like a lot of effort when there are better tools for writing and
outlining, like Dynalist or Workflowy.
David Gifford
Mexico team leader, Mexico City
*Resonate Global Mission*
*Engaging People. Embracing Christ.*
A Ministry of the Christian Reformed Church
resonateglobalmission.org
Post by JD
Hi Tony, you mean, like a full-blown outline, right?
If that's so, I think, maybe, we can use the TOC template for this.
And instead of transcluding the title, we transclude the body of the text
(while still following the tag-tree structure). What do you think?
My contribution in this will be slow during the weekdays (9 - 5 job +
lots of overtime gets in the way)
This is exciting stuff. I'm thinking of using this to write a novelette.
Post by TonyM
JD,
Should we be using a new thread to collaborate otherwise we are
somewhat hijacking the thread?
Of note is I am using filters such as "[tag[WhitePaper]]" where it
would be nice to either include all tiddlers tagged by the tiddlers that
are tagged by WhitePaper like the Table of Contents macro
I think there would be value being able to specify more than one
filter as you suggest.
For the moment I am just thinking will the second filter be wrapped
inside the first?
Imagine filter1 filter2 filter3 = chapter section paragraph
So when listing paragraphs we only want to be listing those with the
same chapter and section
And ideally each filter will provide the sort order.
I will return to this soon.
Tony
Post by JD
Hey Tony, I was thinking of adding "subtiddler" as another optional
<$list filter="$filter$" variable="parItem">
<$transclude tiddler=<<parItem>> subtiddler="$subtiddler$"/>
</$list>
As you can see, I'm not quite imaginative enough to think of more
than that 😅. Please do share your ideas, and use the code present
on the demo site to build something better (we can build them together,
too, I just don't know how collabs work).
I'm also still mulling over using the Navigator widget, which
requires the creation of additional tiddlers, with the absolute pro of not
having to rely on temporary tiddlers... 🀔
Post by TonyM
JD,
I just tried this and it is very helpful. Thanks for the demo.
I just applied it to a list of issues (items tagged Issues) and
realised It would be helpful to list the sub tiddlers.
I have more ideas and some ideas about how to approach it, if you
were to develop it further but as you say this conversation is already
under way.
It seems a somewhat simpler approach is down this path.
Regards
Tony
Post by JD
I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing,
before I read your post, and now I feel stupid lol
Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here
http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/
But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner
EDIT: corrected URL
Post by zemoxian
<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]"
template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate" editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate"
emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />
</$navigator>
You can create custom templates to replace
$:/core/ui/EditTemplate and $:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler
templates with the required functionality.
<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>
The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs
or sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a
couple of templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This
is actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one
tiddler by its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts,
links, images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler,
AS LONG AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the
edit-window of that primary tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate
paragraphs by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the
editing very cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit
them and then come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
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TonyM
2018-04-10 22:32:10 UTC
Permalink
David,

I understand the value in picking the tool you need but I think this may
actually be a gap we need to fill in TiddlyWiki. Even a rudimentary
outliner, to help bridge the gap between tiddler and texts (in the book
sense).

Regards
Tony
Post by David Gifford
Seems like a lot of effort when there are better tools for writing and
outlining, like Dynalist or Workflowy.
David Gifford
Mexico team leader, Mexico City
*Resonate Global Mission*
*Engaging People. Embracing Christ.*
A Ministry of the Christian Reformed Church
resonateglobalmission.org
Post by JD
Hi Tony, you mean, like a full-blown outline, right?
If that's so, I think, maybe, we can use the TOC template for this. And
instead of transcluding the title, we transclude the body of the text
(while still following the tag-tree structure). What do you think?
My contribution in this will be slow during the weekdays (9 - 5 job +
lots of overtime gets in the way)
This is exciting stuff. I'm thinking of using this to write a novelette.
Post by TonyM
JD,
Should we be using a new thread to collaborate otherwise we are somewhat
hijacking the thread?
Of note is I am using filters such as "[tag[WhitePaper]]" where it would
be nice to either include all tiddlers tagged by the tiddlers that are
tagged by WhitePaper like the Table of Contents macro
I think there would be value being able to specify more than one filter
as you suggest.
For the moment I am just thinking will the second filter be wrapped
inside the first?
Imagine filter1 filter2 filter3 = chapter section paragraph
So when listing paragraphs we only want to be listing those with the
same chapter and section
And ideally each filter will provide the sort order.
I will return to this soon.
Tony
Post by JD
Hey Tony, I was thinking of adding "subtiddler" as another optional
<$list filter="$filter$" variable="parItem">
<$transclude tiddler=<<parItem>> subtiddler="$subtiddler$"/>
</$list>
As you can see, I'm not quite imaginative enough to think of more than
that 😅. Please do share your ideas, and use the code present on the
demo site to build something better (we can build them together, too, I
just don't know how collabs work).
I'm also still mulling over using the Navigator widget, which requires
the creation of additional tiddlers, with the absolute pro of not having to
rely on temporary tiddlers... 🀔
Post by TonyM
JD,
I just tried this and it is very helpful. Thanks for the demo.
I just applied it to a list of issues (items tagged Issues) and
realised It would be helpful to list the sub tiddlers.
I have more ideas and some ideas about how to approach it, if you were
to develop it further but as you say this conversation is already under way.
It seems a somewhat simpler approach is down this path.
Regards
Tony
Post by JD
I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing,
before I read your post, and now I feel stupid lol
Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here
http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/
But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner
EDIT: corrected URL
Post by zemoxian
<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]" template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate"
emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />
</$navigator>
You can create custom templates to replace $:/core/ui/EditTemplate
and $:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler templates with the
required functionality.
<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>
The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs or
sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a
couple of templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This
is actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler
by its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links,
images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG
AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of
that primary tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate
paragraphs by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the
editing very cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit
them and then come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
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TonyM
2018-04-10 22:29:54 UTC
Permalink
JD,

I am not sure about the full blown part, but outline yes.

This difficulty between composing large texts and the tiddler as the basic
unit is a common stumbling block for newbies, until they understand the
model they do create large tiddlers, then come to the forum asking
questions how to deal with large tiddlers.

It makes sense we have a solution already made for authors of larger
content that also encourages use of the tiddler and structuring that data.
Personally unless we do this a lot of users will not even see how powerful
it is to divide and organise there data or documents. Outlining is the
minimum structure we need to support large documents.

I agree on using the TableOfContents model or similar, I would like to see
a check box or setting that hides and shows tiddler names, edit links, tags
and perhaps even author notes. SOne of those settings will show it in a way
it can be printed and another so that open in new window is a valid way to
monitor the whole documents progress while working on its parts. Further
ease of reordering is also important, and a preview plugins so you can see
content of tiddlers from links also makes sense.

When users can author paragraphs and a paragraphs or section "is a tiddler"
then collaborative documents is a possibility with all the features than
can be applied to tiddler management becoming available.

Regards
Tony
Post by JD
Hi Tony, you mean, like a full-blown outline, right?
If that's so, I think, maybe, we can use the TOC template for this. And
instead of transcluding the title, we transclude the body of the text
(while still following the tag-tree structure). What do you think?
My contribution in this will be slow during the weekdays (9 - 5 job + lots
of overtime gets in the way)
This is exciting stuff. I'm thinking of using this to write a novelette.
Post by TonyM
JD,
Should we be using a new thread to collaborate otherwise we are somewhat
hijacking the thread?
Of note is I am using filters such as "[tag[WhitePaper]]" where it would
be nice to either include all tiddlers tagged by the tiddlers that are
tagged by WhitePaper like the Table of Contents macro
I think there would be value being able to specify more than one filter
as you suggest.
For the moment I am just thinking will the second filter be wrapped
inside the first?
Imagine filter1 filter2 filter3 = chapter section paragraph
So when listing paragraphs we only want to be listing those with the same
chapter and section
And ideally each filter will provide the sort order.
I will return to this soon.
Tony
Post by JD
Hey Tony, I was thinking of adding "subtiddler" as another optional
<$list filter="$filter$" variable="parItem">
<$transclude tiddler=<<parItem>> subtiddler="$subtiddler$"/>
</$list>
As you can see, I'm not quite imaginative enough to think of more than
that 😅. Please do share your ideas, and use the code present on the
demo site to build something better (we can build them together, too, I
just don't know how collabs work).
I'm also still mulling over using the Navigator widget, which requires
the creation of additional tiddlers, with the absolute pro of not having to
rely on temporary tiddlers... 🀔
Post by TonyM
JD,
I just tried this and it is very helpful. Thanks for the demo.
I just applied it to a list of issues (items tagged Issues) and
realised It would be helpful to list the sub tiddlers.
I have more ideas and some ideas about how to approach it, if you were
to develop it further but as you say this conversation is already under way.
It seems a somewhat simpler approach is down this path.
Regards
Tony
Post by JD
I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing,
before I read your post, and now I feel stupid lol
Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here
http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/
But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner
EDIT: corrected URL
Post by zemoxian
<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]" template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate"
emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />
</$navigator>
You can create custom templates to replace $:/core/ui/EditTemplate
and $:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler templates with the required
functionality.
<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>
The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs or
sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a couple
of templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This is
actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler
by its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links,
images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG
AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of
that primary tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate
paragraphs by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the
editing very cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit
them and then come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
--
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JD
2018-04-11 14:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Hey Tony, I'm going to run with your ideas and have started to play around
with the TOC macros...!
Post by TonyM
JD,
I am not sure about the full blown part, but outline yes.
This difficulty between composing large texts and the tiddler as the basic
unit is a common stumbling block for newbies, until they understand the
model they do create large tiddlers, then come to the forum asking
questions how to deal with large tiddlers.
It makes sense we have a solution already made for authors of larger
content that also encourages use of the tiddler and structuring that data.
Personally unless we do this a lot of users will not even see how powerful
it is to divide and organise there data or documents. Outlining is the
minimum structure we need to support large documents.
I agree on using the TableOfContents model or similar, I would like to see
a check box or setting that hides and shows tiddler names, edit links, tags
and perhaps even author notes. SOne of those settings will show it in a way
it can be printed and another so that open in new window is a valid way to
monitor the whole documents progress while working on its parts. Further
ease of reordering is also important, and a preview plugins so you can see
content of tiddlers from links also makes sense.
When users can author paragraphs and a paragraphs or section "is a
tiddler" then collaborative documents is a possibility with all the
features than can be applied to tiddler management becoming available.
Regards
Tony
Post by JD
Hi Tony, you mean, like a full-blown outline, right?
If that's so, I think, maybe, we can use the TOC template for this. And
instead of transcluding the title, we transclude the body of the text
(while still following the tag-tree structure). What do you think?
My contribution in this will be slow during the weekdays (9 - 5 job +
lots of overtime gets in the way)
This is exciting stuff. I'm thinking of using this to write a novelette.
Post by TonyM
JD,
Should we be using a new thread to collaborate otherwise we are somewhat
hijacking the thread?
Of note is I am using filters such as "[tag[WhitePaper]]" where it would
be nice to either include all tiddlers tagged by the tiddlers that are
tagged by WhitePaper like the Table of Contents macro
I think there would be value being able to specify more than one filter
as you suggest.
For the moment I am just thinking will the second filter be wrapped
inside the first?
Imagine filter1 filter2 filter3 = chapter section paragraph
So when listing paragraphs we only want to be listing those with the
same chapter and section
And ideally each filter will provide the sort order.
I will return to this soon.
Tony
Post by JD
Hey Tony, I was thinking of adding "subtiddler" as another optional
<$list filter="$filter$" variable="parItem">
<$transclude tiddler=<<parItem>> subtiddler="$subtiddler$"/>
</$list>
As you can see, I'm not quite imaginative enough to think of more than
that 😅. Please do share your ideas, and use the code present on the
demo site to build something better (we can build them together, too, I
just don't know how collabs work).
I'm also still mulling over using the Navigator widget, which requires
the creation of additional tiddlers, with the absolute pro of not having to
rely on temporary tiddlers... 🀔
Post by TonyM
JD,
I just tried this and it is very helpful. Thanks for the demo.
I just applied it to a list of issues (items tagged Issues) and
realised It would be helpful to list the sub tiddlers.
I have more ideas and some ideas about how to approach it, if you were
to develop it further but as you say this conversation is already under way.
It seems a somewhat simpler approach is down this path.
Regards
Tony
Post by JD
I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing,
before I read your post, and now I feel stupid lol
Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here
http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/
But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner
EDIT: corrected URL
Post by zemoxian
<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">
{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}
<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]" template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate"
emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />
</$navigator>
You can create custom templates to replace $:/core/ui/EditTemplate
and $:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler templates with the
required functionality.
<div>
{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}
{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}
<div><$view field=title /></div>
<div>
<$transclude />
</div>
</div>
The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs or
sections up and down.
Post by zemoxian
You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a
couple of templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler. This
is actually how the story works in the PageTemplate. I've done this in the
past while fiddling with stuff. The navigator widget handles manipulation
of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit
templates for the sub tiddlers. You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.
You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the
tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)
So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its
own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed. It just depends on
what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little
tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various
templates and buttons, etc.
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler
by its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links,
images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG
AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of
that primary tiddler.
Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate
paragraphs by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the
editing very cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit
them and then come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.
--
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-15 00:42:57 UTC
Permalink
I should probably post this in a separate thread, "TW-Flowy"

This version works mostly. Create a global macro tiddler and insert:

\define tagascurrent() [[$(currentTiddler)$]]
\define draft() Draft of '$(currentTiddler)$'
\define draftcreated() Draft of '$(currentTiddler)$'!!created
\define drafttrans() {{Draft of '$(currentTiddler)$'||$:/core/ui/
EditTemplate}}
\define toc-tabbed-external-nav2(tag,sort:"",selectedTiddler:
"$:/temp/toc/selectedTiddler",unselectedText,missingText,template:"")
<$tiddler tiddler={{$selectedTiddler$}}>
<div class="tc-tabbed-table-of-contents">
<$linkcatcher to="$selectedTiddler$">
<div class="tc-table-of-contents">
<$macrocall $name="toc-selective-expandable" tag="""$tag$""" sort=
"""$sort$""" itemClassFilter=<<toc-tabbed-selected-item-filter
selectedTiddler:"""$selectedTiddler$""">>/>
</div>
</$linkcatcher>
<div class="tc-tabbed-table-of-contents-content">
<$reveal state="""$selectedTiddler$""" type="nomatch" text="">
<$navigator story="story" history="history" openLinkFromInsideRiver="top">

<$list filter="[all[current]]" >
<$reveal state=<<draftcreated>> type="nomatch" text="">
<<drafttrans>>
</$reveal>
<$reveal state=<<draftcreated>> type="match" text="">
{{||$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate}}
<$button>
<$action-createtiddler $basetitle={{$:/newitem}} tags=<<tagascurrent>>
$savetitle="""$selectedTiddler$""" />
New child</$button> <$edit-text tiddler="$:/newitem" tag="input" size="
30" default="Child name here" placeholder="Child name here"/>
</$reveal>
</$list>

</$navigator>
</$reveal>
<$reveal state="""$selectedTiddler$""" type="match" text="">
$unselectedText$
</$reveal>
</div>
</div>
</$tiddler>
\end

Then invoke, for instance if your top tag was "Root":

<$macrocall
$name="toc-tabbed-external-nav2"
tag="Root"
selectedTiddler="$:/temp/toc/selectedTiddler"
unselectedText="<p>Select a topic in the table of contents. Click the
arrow to expand a topic.</p>"
missingText="<p>Missing tiddler.</p>"
template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
/>

Note that it is called "toc-tabbed-external-nav*2*". Below is an example of
it in action.

There are anomalies. I haven't worked out the CSS, so you'll probably need
to have your TW in full-column mode. You need to use the button and field
at the bottom of each item rather than the "New Here" button. Changing the
tiddler name will cause you to lose your place in the tree structure.

This requires latest version of TW (actually, might be able to get away
with 5.1.14, not sure) As always, be sure to have your TW backed up before
trying this.

Have fun,
Mark
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David Gifford
2018-04-15 01:07:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mark

Sorry to be the sourpuss on this one.

1) Unless I am mistaken, this doesn't improve that much on using the new
here button with the table of contents. You just title the child tiddler
before creating, whereas with the new here button you do the same in the
opposite order. It is slightly easier to grasp for newbies, though.
2) I don't think this will scale in TiddlyWiki like it does in Dynalist or
Workflowy.
3) The children are not present when opening the tiddler the way child
notes are visible when zooming in to a node in Dynalist and Workflowy.
4) What makes Dynalist and Workflowy so appealing is that every paragraph
of text is a separate node that can be reordered. And you can zoom into any
level of the outline to focus on that level.

I don't write this to be nitpicky or negative. I just don't want to see you
wasting your time trying to make TiddlyWiki into an outliner. I don't see
that it could compete, but then Dynalist and Worklowy can't compete with
TiddlyWiki in many areas.

I am a fan of both TiddlyWiki and Dynalist, and tend to use both daily. I
tend to write notes and organize my thoughts and tasks in Dynalist, and use
TiddlyWiki for indexing and the creation of static htmls for web publishing.

BTW, while the Dynalist Pro version is a little pricey, as some have noted,
the free version is pretty generous (whereas Workflowy is stingy) and
Dynalist contains most of the features most people would want, unless they
are working with images and attachments.

David Gifford
Mexico team leader, Mexico City

*Resonate Global Mission*
*Engaging People. Embracing Christ.*
A Ministry of the Christian Reformed Church
resonateglobalmission.org


On Sat, Apr 14, 2018 at 7:42 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I should probably post this in a separate thread, "TW-Flowy"
\define tagascurrent() [[$(currentTiddler)$]]
\define draft() Draft of '$(currentTiddler)$'
\define draftcreated() Draft of '$(currentTiddler)$'!!created
\define drafttrans() {{Draft of '$(currentTiddler)$'||$:/core/ui/
EditTemplate}}
\define toc-tabbed-external-nav2(tag,sort:"",selectedTiddler:"$:/
temp/toc/selectedTiddler",unselectedText,missingText,template:"")
<$tiddler tiddler={{$selectedTiddler$}}>
<div class="tc-tabbed-table-of-contents">
<$linkcatcher to="$selectedTiddler$">
<div class="tc-table-of-contents">
<$macrocall $name="toc-selective-expandable" tag="""$tag$""" sort=
"""$sort$""" itemClassFilter=<<toc-tabbed-selected-item-filter
selectedTiddler:"""$selectedTiddler$""">>/>
</div>
</$linkcatcher>
<div class="tc-tabbed-table-of-contents-content">
<$reveal state="""$selectedTiddler$""" type="nomatch" text="">
<$navigator story="story" history="history" openLinkFromInsideRiver="top">
<$list filter="[all[current]]" >
<$reveal state=<<draftcreated>> type="nomatch" text="">
<<drafttrans>>
</$reveal>
<$reveal state=<<draftcreated>> type="match" text="">
{{||$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate}}
<$button>
<$action-createtiddler $basetitle={{$:/newitem}} tags=<<tagascurrent>>
$savetitle="""$selectedTiddler$""" />
New child</$button>&nbsp;<$edit-text tiddler="$:/newitem" tag="input"
size="30" default="Child name here" placeholder="Child name here"/>
</$reveal>
</$list>
</$navigator>
</$reveal>
<$reveal state="""$selectedTiddler$""" type="match" text="">
$unselectedText$
</$reveal>
</div>
</div>
</$tiddler>
\end
<$macrocall
$name="toc-tabbed-external-nav2"
tag="Root"
selectedTiddler="$:/temp/toc/selectedTiddler"
unselectedText="<p>Select a topic in the table of contents. Click the
arrow to expand a topic.</p>"
missingText="<p>Missing tiddler.</p>"
template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
/>
Note that it is called "toc-tabbed-external-nav*2*". Below is an example
of it in action.
There are anomalies. I haven't worked out the CSS, so you'll probably need
to have your TW in full-column mode. You need to use the button and field
at the bottom of each item rather than the "New Here" button. Changing the
tiddler name will cause you to lose your place in the tree structure.
This requires latest version of TW (actually, might be able to get away
with 5.1.14, not sure) As always, be sure to have your TW backed up before
trying this.
Have fun,
Mark
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-15 04:43:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Gifford
1) Unless I am mistaken, this doesn't improve that much on using the new
here button with the table of contents. You just title the child tiddler
before creating, whereas with the new here button you do the same in the
opposite order. It is slightly easier to grasp for newbies, though.
If it's working correctly, when you make the new tiddler it should appear
inside the TOC "tree". If it's appearing outside the tree then you are
probably using a slightly older version of TW. With this mechanism, you
could quickly make the outline of whatever text you are preparing, drilling
down layer by layer.
Post by David Gifford
2) I don't think this will scale in TiddlyWiki like it does in Dynalist or
Workflowy.
I think many people would be able to get along with a couple thousand
entries, and I expect it to scale to that.
Post by David Gifford
3) The children are not present when opening the tiddler the way child
notes are visible when zooming in to a node in Dynalist and Workflowy.
Guess I'd have to take another look at WF and DYN.
Post by David Gifford
4) What makes Dynalist and Workflowy so appealing is that every paragraph
of text is a separate node that can be reordered. And you can zoom into any
level of the outline to focus on that level.
Opening and closing the branches of the tree, you can get some level of
granularity and focus. Obviously one guy working a few hours on a project
can't do as much as entire teams of programmers. I'm sort of thinking it
might inspire someone to take it to the next level.
Post by David Gifford
I don't write this to be nitpicky or negative. I just don't want to see
you wasting your time trying to make TiddlyWiki into an outliner. I don't
see that it could compete, but then Dynalist and Worklowy can't compete
with TiddlyWiki in many areas.
Let me try Diego Mesa's argument on you:

...if you buy into the TW philosophy that its your external brain - that
Post by David Gifford
you place all information that is somewhat important to you into TW - it
only makes sense that it would have some mechanism to help you remember
certain key pieces.
For me, Dynalist and WF are no-goes because they can't work offline. OK, I
guess DL has a windows app, but it's kind of nice to get away from app's.
Their Android apps unfortunately do not work on my aging mobile devices. I
think images are important, and neither work with images without adding
money.

Overall though, this was just an experiment. I probably won't take it
further unless some interest is expressed. Meanwhile I'll be looking with
interest at what zemoxian, JD and the others come up with.

Thanks!
Mark
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'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-15 10:53:48 UTC
Permalink
@JD

In the process of enabling myself to customize your wonderful *paragraphs*
macro, I have analysed the code of it (actually, since I'm a newbie, it
took me a decent amount of effort). I'm glad I was able to more or less
understand it. Just one small question. If I get it correctly, you don't
need "textarea" in the following:
<style>
textarea.full-width { width: 100%; height: auto; }
?
------------

@Mark S.

I've just tried your *toc-tabbed-external-**nav2* macro (it will take time
for me to understand the internals of your code). I like the essential
functions your macro provides! Clearly, it needs some refining (e.g., now,
when you select a tiddler in the left menu, it takes too much horizontal
space and hides some of the sidebar, which is on the right). However,
overall, I like how it enables you to navigate through tiddlers having some
specific tag, and lets you create "child tiddlers"!
--------------


@David Gifford

If you do not use TiddlyWiki for note-taking, could you elaborate on what
exactly you mean by "indexing" and how you use TW for it?
I am no specialist, but aren't there more polished apps for "creation of
static htmls for web publishing"? By this, I would try to argue that, as
there are well-polished apps for note-taking (your mentioned ones and
others), there might as well be more polished apps for "indexing" and,
particularly, for "web publishing".
----------------------


I agree that essential advantages of TiddlyWiki are the following:

- It is free.
- You possess your TiddlyWiki file and are independent of some specific
company's cloud services.
- You can modify tools created by others! You can create your own tools!
You can change both the appearance and the functions of YOUR Wiki.
- You have a willing to help community!


If you get deep into the TiddlyWiki language of filters, transclusions and
macros, why not then use it for note-taking and, actually, shape/modernize
the way you approach the note-taking itself?!

Overall, I could not be happier with the variety and quality of responses
in this thread. This shows not only that the community is willing to help,
but also that note-taking tools which collect, sort and present separate
but related pieces of information are very relevant for a lot of people!

Thank you!

Vytas
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Mat
2018-04-15 11:41:14 UTC
Permalink
Side note: One major point with TW is "the next 25 years" i.e that TW
relies on very basic tech so your data will still be easily accessible for
quite some time. When you bring in Dynalist and other services you are,
AFAICT, back out on the same ol' thin ice that many of us try to leave
behind after having been burnt. Or am I missing sth?

<:-)
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TonyM
2018-04-15 13:25:55 UTC
Permalink
One persons note book is anothers data collection repository and tiddlywiki then lets you analyse, structure, automate, turn into a database, refactor, print, define custom views, import export, extend, parse.....

Notebooks are so last millenium. Notebooks are dead, long live the notebook (in tw).

Tony
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JD
2018-04-18 14:16:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
@JD
In the process of enabling myself to customize your wonderful *paragraphs*
macro, I have analysed the code of it (actually, since I'm a newbie, it
took me a decent amount of effort). I'm glad I was able to more or less
understand it. Just one small question. If I get it correctly, you don't
<style>
textarea.full-width { width: 100%; height: auto; }
?
Hi Vytas,

It's great that you're using this to learn about markup! TW is how I
learned this stuff as well. For the CSS, yeah, you're right, you can
actually remove the "textarea" from "textarea.full-width { properties }" ,
if there's no need for too much specificity.

Another way to write it would be ".full-width textarea { properties }"
Post by 'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
EXTRA QUESTION. By the way, what is considered to be a "good practice"
regarding the state tiddlers? I have noticed, that whenever you use
RevealWidget you create those state tiddlers which are not removed
automatically. I imagine that the amount of those state tiddlers can become
really large (especially if you use RevealWidget inside of
<$list>..</$list> ). Is there a way to delete state tiddlers automatically
or should it be done, from time to time, with some delete macro?
------------
I haven't really thought about automatically deleting state tiddlers, but
you're right that the amount would gradually grow. I only ever thought of
deleting the temp tiddlers lol

I will insert this line within the macro, after the actions to delete the
temp tiddlers for the "commit changes" and "discard changes" buttons:

<$action-deletetiddler $tiddler=<<stateEditTid>>/>

If you're still using this macro, please update your copy. I corrected the
Yes-No reveals to accommodate for the above change, and also updated the
buttons so they will no longer set the statetiddler to "no" when it will be
deleted anyways :)

you can use a service like to see the differences
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David Gifford
2018-04-15 14:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mark, Vytas, and others

Thanks for the responses. My comment last night was not meant to criticize
you, Mark, or your effort. I probably shouldn't post after 10pm, as it can
come out wrong. My comment wasn't meant to be hate for what you did, but
love for outliners. After years of notetaking in T-dub, creating numerous,
probably around 50, different adaptations (yes, Vytas, I have done that
extensively for years), outliners were like an epiphany for me, absolutely
liberating. They let me get back to focusing on the content rather than on
the mechanics. I was constantly saying to myself, "You mean I can just
indent instead of having to add various levels of asterisks? You mean every
item, whether a section, a paragraph or image, is its own webpage with an
URL I can share? You mean images can just be dragged in rather than
uploading them somewhere and then creating a tiddler with an image link?
You mean if I want to reorder paragraphs in my article or outline or list
or table of contents, I can just drag them? Wow!" These were the kinds of
discoveries that made me excited about outliners.

So even considering going to T-dub for outlining feels like going back to
jail. I use T-dub for the things it does well, and it does many things
really well. So I use it a lot. Every day. But when I hear people in this
forum turn their nose up at Dynalist - and I am not saying you did, but
others have - it just sounds like ignorant prejudice from TiddlyWiki
diehards, because I have found outliners liberating.

Your attempt, valiant as it is, reminds me of one of my many attempts from
2014 - http://giffmex.org/experiments/obadiah.html#Table%20of%20contents.
The new here button in conjunction with the toc feature seems to already do
what you are doing. And it is great to a point. So I remember the
excitement you are feeling at your success. All I am saying is that 1)
there are limits. Scale is a killer, especially when tags, and lists based
on tags, are involved. And it looks like tags are used for your toc as they
were with mine. 2) And let's not pretend that TW could ever become an
outliner-killer. You could refine this and hone this so that it is 500% or
1000% better, and it would still not do what an outliner does. And that is
not a put down - it does not make your project less valuable or awesome for
TiddlyWiki. In saying this I am trying to affirm Vytas' reply to me. I
agree.

Most of Dynalist's best features are free, but I pay for Dynalist pro
because I benefit greatly from its value and it is worth it to me - I am
online almost all the time, I do a lot of writing and organizing, and I
deal with a large number of interrelated topics. I was an early adopter, so
I have a discount. I do not pay 'double what it costs for Evernote', as
someone put it. So my case is distinct. I realize not everyone would find
it as helpful or cost-efficient. I am not trying to convert anyone from
T-dub. Though TiddlyWiki is free, I try to 'pay' for it by creating
resources like the TiddlyWiki toolmap to show my gratitude. I have probably
paid with my time spent on shared projects for TiddlyWiki far more than I
pay in money for Dynalist.

One last note, @Mat: with Dynalist I can download a backup in plain text
and opml with one button. And I fear more for TW over 25 years. Browser
restrictions have already affected TW greatly. Who says they won't do so
more in the future?

Blessings to all. I enjoy the discussion and everyone's comments. Just
trying to give a different perspective.



David Gifford
Mexico team leader, Mexico City

*Resonate Global Mission*
*Engaging People. Embracing Christ.*
A Ministry of the Christian Reformed Church
resonateglobalmission.org


On Sat, Apr 14, 2018 at 11:43 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Post by David Gifford
1) Unless I am mistaken, this doesn't improve that much on using the new
here button with the table of contents. You just title the child tiddler
before creating, whereas with the new here button you do the same in the
opposite order. It is slightly easier to grasp for newbies, though.
If it's working correctly, when you make the new tiddler it should appear
inside the TOC "tree". If it's appearing outside the tree then you are
probably using a slightly older version of TW. With this mechanism, you
could quickly make the outline of whatever text you are preparing, drilling
down layer by layer.
Post by David Gifford
2) I don't think this will scale in TiddlyWiki like it does in Dynalist
or Workflowy.
I think many people would be able to get along with a couple thousand
entries, and I expect it to scale to that.
Post by David Gifford
3) The children are not present when opening the tiddler the way child
notes are visible when zooming in to a node in Dynalist and Workflowy.
Guess I'd have to take another look at WF and DYN.
Post by David Gifford
4) What makes Dynalist and Workflowy so appealing is that every paragraph
of text is a separate node that can be reordered. And you can zoom into any
level of the outline to focus on that level.
Opening and closing the branches of the tree, you can get some level of
granularity and focus. Obviously one guy working a few hours on a project
can't do as much as entire teams of programmers. I'm sort of thinking it
might inspire someone to take it to the next level.
Post by David Gifford
I don't write this to be nitpicky or negative. I just don't want to see
you wasting your time trying to make TiddlyWiki into an outliner. I don't
see that it could compete, but then Dynalist and Worklowy can't compete
with TiddlyWiki in many areas.
...if you buy into the TW philosophy that its your external brain - that
Post by David Gifford
you place all information that is somewhat important to you into TW - it
only makes sense that it would have some mechanism to help you remember
certain key pieces.
For me, Dynalist and WF are no-goes because they can't work offline. OK, I
guess DL has a windows app, but it's kind of nice to get away from app's.
Their Android apps unfortunately do not work on my aging mobile devices. I
think images are important, and neither work with images without adding
money.
Overall though, this was just an experiment. I probably won't take it
further unless some interest is expressed. Meanwhile I'll be looking with
interest at what zemoxian, JD and the others come up with.
Thanks!
Mark
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