Discussion:
[tw] [TW5] Links - unify external and internal!
(too old to reply)
Mat
2014-12-06 15:29:21 UTC
Permalink
In writing a proposal <https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/1201>
for the ToC tabbed macro, I started thinking about a fundamental problem I
(we?) have had since the dawn of TW:

IRL, you're often in the middle of something when something else comes up
and you bring this out next to what you were just doing. Having both in
front of you means you can easily switch back and forth - or just leave the
first for the moment only to go back whenever you're done with the new
thing. ..But sometimes it's better if what you were first doing could just
be stuffed away becaue you're now onto something else.

ITL ( - why, "In Tiddly Life", of course?) Sometiems it is good that links
behave "click -> pagescroll" to view the target tiddler leaving the first
open above... but quite often it is preferable that the current tiddler is
just replaced with the target.

Current solutions means "either or", such as classic story view vs zoomin
story view. Or ToC tabbed with external links vs internal links. I say it
is time we improve this. It shouldn't have to be either-or. What is the
best way to have *one* link behave in *two* ways, depending on what you
want at the moment of clicking it?

Ideas?


<:-)
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+***@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ***@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Daniel Baird
2014-12-08 07:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Command click does the other thing?

Or Ctrl-click or whatever you Windows people call it.
Post by Mat
In writing a proposal
<https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/1201> for the ToC tabbed
macro, I started thinking about a fundamental problem I (we?) have had
IRL, you're often in the middle of something when something else comes up
and you bring this out next to what you were just doing. Having both in
front of you means you can easily switch back and forth - or just leave the
first for the moment only to go back whenever you're done with the new
thing. ..But sometimes it's better if what you were first doing could just
be stuffed away becaue you're now onto something else.
ITL ( - why, "In Tiddly Life", of course?) Sometiems it is good that links
behave "click -> pagescroll" to view the target tiddler leaving the first
open above... but quite often it is preferable that the current tiddler is
just replaced with the target.
Current solutions means "either or", such as classic story view vs zoomin
story view. Or ToC tabbed with external links vs internal links. I say it
is time we improve this. It shouldn't have to be either-or. What is the
best way to have *one* link behave in *two* ways, depending on what you
want at the moment of clicking it?
Ideas?
<:-)
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
Daniel Baird
objoke: I had a problem and decided to solve it with threading. Now,
have problems. two I
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+***@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ***@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Tobias Beer
2014-12-08 12:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mat
Current solutions means "either or", such as classic story view vs zoomin
story view. Or ToC tabbed with external links vs internal links. I say it
is time we improve this. It shouldn't have to be either-or. What is the
best way to have *one* link behave in *two* ways, depending on what you
want at the moment of clicking it?
Why / for what would that be an improvement? Switching themes / story views
is easy.
Those precious CTRL or SHIFT modifiers better be reserved for something
productive.

Best wishes, Tobias.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+***@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ***@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
PMario
2014-12-08 13:15:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tobias Beer
Why / for what would that be an improvement? Switching themes / story
views is easy.
Those precious CTRL or SHIFT modifiers better be reserved for something
productive.
As Daniel points out. If you CTRL click a link it opens the tiddler, but
doesn't scroll. ...
This is very convenient, since it doesn't disturb your reading flow, but
can open tiddlers for later reading. ..
In turn this behaviour increases productivity. ... It's part of the core
already.

-m
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+***@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ***@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Mat
2014-12-08 16:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by PMario
Post by Tobias Beer
Why / for what would that be an improvement? Switching themes / story
views is easy.
Those precious CTRL or SHIFT modifiers better be reserved for something
productive.
As Daniel points out. If you CTRL click a link it opens the tiddler, but
doesn't scroll. ...
This is very convenient, since it doesn't disturb your reading flow, but
can open tiddlers for later reading. ..
In turn this behaviour increases productivity. ... It's part of the core
already.
That is good but, as you say, it opens them for *later* reading. If you
want to read the link *now* but don't want to keep the current tiddler open
then you must first click the link, then read, then scroll up to close the
source including that you must keep in mind which tiddler it is you want to
close during this. Or, close it via tab Open, if that tab is at front, or
you must... still distracted from your reading... switch over to the
correct tab and locate which tiddler it was you wanted to close. This is
just a workflow that does distract the reading/working and it's such a
fundamental thing that affects us all the time. I just think we can make
something smoother.

The workflow could (should!) be to click and... just continue reading.

Changed your mind and want back to previous tiddler? - Ok, <magic command>
and you're back.

We ought to have the option, IMO.

<:-)
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+***@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ***@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Birthe C
2014-12-08 17:10:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mat
Why not use Eucaly's quickjump plugin. Used in tiddler toolbar. IT is fast,
you do not have to scroll or switch tabs.
http://eucaly-tw5.tiddlyspot.com/#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Feucaly%2Fquickjump%2Fhistory


Birthe
Post by Mat
That is good but, as you say, it opens them for *later* reading. If you
want to read the link *now* but don't want to keep the current tiddler
open then you must first click the link, then read, then scroll up to close
the source including that you must keep in mind which tiddler it is you
want to close during this. Or, close it via tab Open, if that tab is at
front, or you must... still distracted from your reading... switch over to
the correct tab and locate which tiddler it was you wanted to close. This
is just a workflow that does distract the reading/working and it's such a
fundamental thing that affects us all the time. I just think we can make
something smoother.
The workflow could (should!) be to click and... just continue reading.
Changed your mind and want back to previous tiddler? - Ok, <magic command>
and you're back.
We ought to have the option, IMO.
<:-)
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+***@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ***@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Mat
2014-12-08 23:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Birthe C
Hi Mat
Why not use Eucaly's quickjump plugin.
Nice plugin and similar to tab Open but for one it wouldn't show the
targets to where links are pointing to, so you'd fist have to open the link
and then go up to this plugin to go over there. But, regardless, I'm hoping
we can do better. The closest I can think of is a key pressed as you click,
but as Tobias commented above this is used for much else so hopefully we
can come up with something else. I'm assuming we must click the link to
actually get the new tiddler so I think it's something we should do at this
moment.

I'm talking about reading text and following tiddlers. Consider that
tiddlers are, ideally, really the exact opposite of narrative text and that
tw is really a medium for hyperlinks. For more narrative texts the
hypertransitioning just ought to be very smooth. I really *like* the way
tiddlers 'distribute' and animate in classic story view (it's cool!) but
when it comes to more narrative reading it simply shifts your focus from
where it should be. Or the reader visiting your TW for that matter.

I expect, or at least hope, TW is going in a direction where we will see
specially designed "application TW's", particularly from people with
special expertise in some area be it "rock music", "blogging", "teaching
science" or whatever. This, I believe, will be of tremendous value for our
community because suddenly we can *target* specific groups with TWs that
solve their particular needs. I would expect several of these to rely on
more narrative text - blogging is one, fiction authoring is another, but
really any area that relies on narrative text. The very fundamental action
of transitioning between tiddlers must be appropriate for these
applications. But, personally, I'd be happy for a solution already now :-)


<:-)
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+***@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ***@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Mat
2014-12-08 16:00:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mat
Current solutions means "either or", such as classic story view vs zoomin
Post by Mat
story view. Or ToC tabbed with external links vs internal links. I say it
is time we improve this. It shouldn't have to be either-or. What is the
best way to have *one* link behave in *two* ways, depending on what you
want at the moment of clicking it?
Why / for what would that be an improvement? Switching themes / story
views is easy.
No, I'm not talking about themes or story views. I mean deciding on
behaviour at the moment you're reading and clicking a link. I.e regardless
of overall theme / story view.
Post by Mat
Those precious CTRL or SHIFT modifiers better be reserved for something
productive.
I agree - and that's one reason why I didn't suggest this. I'm hoping there
could be other ideas.


<:-)
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+***@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ***@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Tobias Beer
2014-12-08 18:36:11 UTC
Permalink
I do like (and want to implement) a behavior where you can easily rewind to
the link you clicked...

http://rewind.tiddlyspace.com

...or something slightly less intrusive.

Best wishes, Tobias.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+***@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ***@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Mat
2014-12-09 00:09:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tobias Beer
http://rewind.tiddlyspace.com
LOL! Tobias... I've got to say you keep on impressing me. You've really
become a cornerstone for solutions in TW :-)

Yes, that is very much like something I'm hoping for. Like you say, perhaps
a bit less intrusive, but that's of course trivial (just a little icon or
whatever). In the target tiddler, i.e after you've actually switched
tiddler, there is no obvious place where to put a "back-link". One ohter
place where "back-links" are used is in browsers so maybe we could pick up
on this "standard". A small left pointing arrow next to... hm, the title?
Not sure it would look so good. Ah!-Possibly better idea; on e.g Amazon you
can preview pages in the books and they have a small triangle arrow on left
and right side for flipping backward and forward. Not sure we'd need a
forward but such a backward arrow, at the left margin might work. (Hm, that
margin area again!)

I like this. There preceding link click seems to be the trickier
question...

Double click? Swipe in some direction at same time as clicking?
Shift+click? Should it be possible to use on touch screen..?

Maybe some kind of state flag to say "from now on do zoomin in this tiddler
(and the followin here)". A checkbox perhaps? In a way it would be like
sticking the frame and just having the field contents change. Hm, really it
would be zoomin story view but for a single tiddler. Maybe a thumb tack
button on the frame? Would work on touch screens as well... and would match
the backward feature if that also is a button (a'la browser back
button).... maybe a forward for functional (but I guess also visual)
symmetry... maybe that's overkill... the forward does like in the very
link they click... This "stick the frame" idea isn't quite the "decide at
moment of click" but maybe close enough...

...bedtime now.

<:-)
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+***@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ***@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Tobias Beer
2014-12-09 07:53:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mat
Double click? Swipe in some direction at same time as clicking?
Shift+click? Should it be possible to use on touch screen..?
Could be the left margin, showing a dim back arrow.

Just like that sticky title, if it was possible to make tiddler elements
sticky, there's be a lot of potential for less dominant controls in the
left and right margins.

Atm, I'd place that indicator where the target was... if it was a tiddler,
to the left of the first paragraph. If it was some tab, etc, at the scroll
position to the left of that tabset.

This should be done with any tm-navigate event having some navigateFrom***
from which we start scrolling.

So, you'd have that "go back" link (some left pointing arrow, triangle) at
the very position you scroll to... and perhaps a right pointing indicator
flashing up to the right at the scroll position of the original link after
clicking the go-back button and having scrolled back to that previous
location.

One could probably just use the browsers history, and instead of setting it
to the tiddler that just openened we'd set it to tiddler + clicked-element
when we leave it. The clicked element may need some "rel" set to a unique
identifier once clicked.

Reading this...

http://www.sitepoint.com/javascript-history-pushstate

...all that sounds possible so long as we only do a *history.pushState()*
when actually leaving a tiddler, rather than when arriving at one (ok, on
startup maybe).

Makes sense?

Best wishes, Tobias.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+***@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ***@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Mat
2014-12-09 14:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Tobias wrote:

Could be the left margin, showing a dim back arrow.
Post by Tobias Beer
Atm, I'd place that indicator where the target was... if it was a tiddler,
to the left of the first paragraph. If it was some tab, etc, at the scroll
position to the left of that tabset.
Something like in this image below? It also picks up on your forward link
after going backward, a good idea actually as it would let you easily flip
back and forth just to check something. Hope the image is large enough so
the faint arrows below the letters are visible.
I think position a is better than b to keep it out of sight, unless you
actually want it. Equivalent on right side for forward.
For tabs (clever to identify this as a different case!) I think position c
makese sense but am unsure of d or e. Maybe d as it is more in the
immediate vincinity of the place where you'd otherwise switch tabs. e feels
a bit off side.


<Loading Image...>

Just like that sticky title, if it was possible to make tiddler elements
Post by Tobias Beer
sticky, there's be a lot of potential for less dominant controls in the
left and right margins.
You mean to have the arrow sticky so it is at constant vertical distance
from browser edge if you eventually scroll to read a long tiddler or so?


This should be done with any tm-navigate event having some navigateFrom***
Post by Tobias Beer
from which we start scrolling.
So, you'd have that "go back" link (some left pointing arrow, triangle) at
the very position you scroll to... and perhaps a right pointing indicator
flashing up to the right at the scroll position of the original link after
clicking the go-back button and having scrolled back to that previous
location.
One could probably just use the browsers history, and instead of setting
it to the tiddler that just openened we'd set it to tiddler +
clicked-element when we leave it. The clicked element may need some "rel"
set to a unique identifier once clicked.
Not sure I understand. Or do you mean that going back, the window should
scroll so that it sets the previously used link to appears at top in
browser window, instead of the tiddler title normally at that position? For
links far down in a tiddler this might perhaps be a good idea.


http://www.sitepoint.com/javascript-history-pushstate
Positive read! (And enough time has passed so that the IE issues are even
in the past by now. Surprisingly it seems to be Chrome setting the
limitations for our later ideas.).

<:-)
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+***@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ***@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Tobias Beer
2014-12-09 16:16:56 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mat,
Post by Mat
I think position a is better than b to keep it out of sight, unless you
actually want it. Equivalent on right side for forward.
I'd put it inside the tiddler (b), not outside of it (a), as it clearly
relates to the tiddler. And I would only display it, either when I hover
the tiddler, or even only when I hover the padded area. It should be an as
much hidden feature as possible, because I like displays that are not
crammed with visual noise.

For tabs (clever to identify this as a different case!) I think position c
Post by Mat
makese sense but am unsure of d or e. Maybe d as it is more in the
immediate vincinity of the place where you'd otherwise switch tabs. e feels
a bit off side.
Not so sure about tabs anymore, I think you may have misunderstood my idea
as a form of tabs navigation... which it wasn't. :)

Tabs were merely an example for an addressable thing to which you can now
navigate to inside a tiddler, I believe. At least that's what the release
notes of 5.1.5 suggested. So, if you were to do that, have the indicator
right at that position.

When it comes to cycling tabs, I personally don't see much merit in those
left-right buttons. They'd be exactly more like the above mentioned noise
to me.

Instead of tab-paging, I would much rather prefer something like
http://pagr.tiddlyspace.com ...allowing you to wander through toc items by
clicking the appropriate link(s) at the end of your tiddler... to go « back
| home | next ».

You mean to have the arrow sticky so it is at constant vertical distance
Post by Mat
from browser edge if you eventually scroll to read a long tiddler or so?
Yes, I mean to have that arrow scroll with you while scrolling, just like
that title would... so it doesn't scroll out of sight. On the other hand,
if the convention were to simply use that entire left padding for that
function, then you'd not even need a visual button, just some highlighting
and the knowledge about what it does.
Post by Mat
This should be done with any tm-navigate event having some navigateFrom***
from which we start scrolling.
So, you'd have that "go back" link (some left pointing arrow, triangle) at
the very position you scroll to... and perhaps a right pointing indicator
flashing up to the right at the scroll position of the original link after
clicking the go-back button and having scrolled back to that previous
location.
Exactly. I believe this would be easier to spot and less intrusive than
having the actual link you first clicked flash upon return. But all that is
perhaps overkill.

Not sure I understand. Or do you mean that going back, the window should
Post by Mat
scroll so that it sets the previously used link to appears at top in
browser window, instead of the tiddler title normally at that position? For
links far down in a tiddler this might perhaps be a good idea.
Yes, right now, the history only accounts for the tiddler titles as encoded
via the location hash, rather than a scroll position / position of a dom
element. The latter seems feasible, I believe... so you would not only go
back to a tiddler, but to that position within it.

Positive read! (And enough time has passed so that the IE issues are even
Post by Mat
in the past by now. Surprisingly it seems to be Chrome setting the
limitations for our later ideas
yet to be tested :)

Best wishes, Tobias.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+***@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ***@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Loading...