Discussion:
[tw5] Why is there no table of content in the empty wiki?
(too old to reply)
bimlas
2018-11-02 21:37:30 UTC
Permalink
I've been using TiddlyWiki for about 3 months, but I've seen the mailing
list many times, "Why is there a small number of Tiddly users, even though
it's better/more flexible than other wikis?" I think the main problem is
that new users feel lost in trying out https://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html

When they write a new note, it appears in the Open sidebar, but as soon as
they are closing it, the note disappearing from the list, so they think
they have deleted their note, they do not know they can access it in the
Recent sidebar.

Let's assume that the user goes through the first barrier and finds that he
can find his notes using the Recent sidebar and the search box. He wants to
organize his notes in order to find them easier. Because he has used a
note-taking program before, so he thinks he can use tags. As a test, he
adds a tag to the note, then clicks on it and sees that the current note is
listed. He is happy about it, but he misses the list of tags because they
are not visible by default, he must look for it.

Our man is very clever, he finds the Tools -> Tag Manager list and the More
-> Tags sidebar, so he can use the wiki quite effectively. He thinks he
wants to write a book from his notes, so he wants to sort them into a
hierarchical system (table of contents). Since he not finds option / help
in his own wiki, he must search the web for the answer. He finds the answer
on
https://tiddlywiki.com/#Adding%20a%20table%20of%20contents%20to%20the%20sidebar
and can create a table of contents, but faces the fact that TiddlyWiki has
to be "hacked" to reach its goals. If our man is a programmer / scientist,
he's probably glad that TiddlyWiki is very open to modification, but if he
is a simple user, then that fact can be scare of it.

In my opinion, what is missing from TiddlyWiki is that navigation is more
like general wiki (by default):

Sidebars to add:

- Include a default table of contents
- Show More -> Tags as a regular sidebar

Sidebars to remove:

- Open is rarelly used in my opinion (at least among ordinary users)
- Move "Tools" to the "More" sidebar (where Tags was)

Finally, there would be as many sidebars as before, but they would come to
the fore, which an average user (came from another wiki) uses more.

(Very much thanks to @TiddlyTweeter for mentioning the use of Google
Translate!)
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David Gifford
2018-11-02 22:42:24 UTC
Permalink
I agree with you, but the pushback I got years ago when I brought it up
was,

TiddlyWiki is meant to be non-linear. Putting a TOC in the empty version
goes against the principles used in dreaming up TiddlyWiki. And it perhaps
promotes inflexibility in the user, as he or she might then be influenced
away from more non-linear uses.

I can understand and appreciate that argument. But making something as
basic as a TOC so difficult to create does indeed hold TW back from
adoption by new users.

Maybe there should be a TOC edition?
Post by bimlas
I've been using TiddlyWiki for about 3 months, but I've seen the mailing
list many times, "Why is there a small number of Tiddly users, even though
it's better/more flexible than other wikis?" I think the main problem is
that new users feel lost in trying out https://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html
When they write a new note, it appears in the Open sidebar, but as soon as
they are closing it, the note disappearing from the list, so they think
they have deleted their note, they do not know they can access it in the
Recent sidebar.
Let's assume that the user goes through the first barrier and finds that
he can find his notes using the Recent sidebar and the search box. He wants
to organize his notes in order to find them easier. Because he has used a
note-taking program before, so he thinks he can use tags. As a test, he
adds a tag to the note, then clicks on it and sees that the current note is
listed. He is happy about it, but he misses the list of tags because they
are not visible by default, he must look for it.
Our man is very clever, he finds the Tools -> Tag Manager list and the
More -> Tags sidebar, so he can use the wiki quite effectively. He thinks
he wants to write a book from his notes, so he wants to sort them into a
hierarchical system (table of contents). Since he not finds option / help
in his own wiki, he must search the web for the answer. He finds the answer
on
https://tiddlywiki.com/#Adding%20a%20table%20of%20contents%20to%20the%20sidebar
and can create a table of contents, but faces the fact that TiddlyWiki has
to be "hacked" to reach its goals. If our man is a programmer / scientist,
he's probably glad that TiddlyWiki is very open to modification, but if he
is a simple user, then that fact can be scare of it.
In my opinion, what is missing from TiddlyWiki is that navigation is more
- Include a default table of contents
- Show More -> Tags as a regular sidebar
- Open is rarelly used in my opinion (at least among ordinary users)
- Move "Tools" to the "More" sidebar (where Tags was)
Finally, there would be as many sidebars as before, but they would come to
the fore, which an average user (came from another wiki) uses more.
Translate!)
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TonyM
2018-11-03 07:03:42 UTC
Permalink
David,

Perhaps there should be a new user edition, empty is "as pure as the driven snow", and this is importiant for somewhat knowledgable users wanting a fresh copy when they need it. But I agree with you and Bimlas. Lets use this thread to build a list of things we would include in a new user wiki and make such an addition.

We could even create a button to create or delete these additions.

Toc already installed
A home page in the toc with a set of guidence tiddlers below (abouts and high level how to tiddlers) most will link to tiddlywiki.com tiddlers.
Eg;
How to create tiddlers or "content" in tiddlywiki
How to write in tiddlywiki markdown
How to connect tiddlers with tags eg new here
How to list tiddlers with the same
How to backup your tiddlywiki
How to save your work
How to get or transfer content - tiddlers, bundles of tiddlers, plugins
tag(s)/combination of tags
How to find plugins via libraries, listings, search, googlegroups
How to get help (search tiddlywiki.com, see find below, search gg, ask gg)
How to find more learning resources
How to find more resources
How to make something appear on every tiddler
About filters (built in first then make your own) filter operators
About searching ( in sidebar, advanced search, search operator)
About editions (empty, new user, others your own)
About saving your work
- default save
- timimi
- support plugins
- get a server to save it for you from (file to http)
About fields
Glossary of terms common in tiddlywiki
- file based or single file tiddlywiki
- folder based wiki
- transclusion
- widgets
- macros
- plugins
- bundles (of tiddlers)
About mobile first
About on your desktop
About tiddlywiki as a platform
About taas tiddlywiki as a service - tiddlyspot, noteself, maarfapad
How to share tiddlywikis - file, taas, cloud, html, PHP server, nodejs, tiddlyserver, bob
How to view tiddlywiki files - browser (file/html), apps with browsers built in -
Did you know?
- you can change the editor/use external editors

More?
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David Gifford
2018-11-03 13:29:58 UTC
Permalink
Just to be clear, what you are proposing is something inbetween empty.html
and tiddlywiki.com? An edition for newbies that has introductory
documentation and a few things preinstalled?

My take would be that the documentation (most of your list) should stay on
tiddlywiki.com, rather than a parallel scaled down version that has to be
maintained separately. What is needed is to make a lot of the existing
documentation more user friendly for soccer moms and busy office workers.
The problem is that not everyone here can write in that way - they have
been techies for too long, and an explanation that sounds abundantly clear
to them - and is - is not clear at all for the rest of us. So they double
down on explaining the abstract definition of a filter or widget, thinking
that will help. Most of us couldn't care less about the definitions and the
concepts. We just want to know what we might use it for and how to use it
without destroying the Internet.

I did some of the work - a number of the tiddlers at
https://tiddlywiki.com/#Working%20with%20TiddlyWiki back in 2014. And of
course the toolmap and my earlier "TW for the rest of us" and TiddlyVault
for classic TW. But I don't have time or knowhow to do much more nowadays.

In addition to better documentation, we should have a) an array of editions
for various use cases and b) a library of one-function-only nearly empty
tws that have one thing - vertical tabs, a table of contents, etc - and
instructions on how to install that one thing and modify it, both for
mobile and for laptop. Then have links to these things on tiddlywiki.com
and the toolmap or whatever is cooked up to replace it.

One issue is that it is less glamorous - and feels like a step backwards -
for most TW regulars to spend time looking at the basic stuff we learned
years ago in order to help others understand them. We would rather create
new cutting edge stuff. For some, that means new plugins. For me that means
new combinations of elements to create new workflows for my personal uses -
notetaking, organizing my ideas, web publishing, and productivity. It is
easy to feel we have too many important things to do at those levels, and
that doing documentation would be a boring chore and a bad use of our time.
But if a few key players could commit themselves to devote 2-3 hours a
month (or whatever) to evaluating and cleaning up documentation on
tiddlywiki.com, that would go a long way.

okay that is my two cents for today. Blessings.
Post by TonyM
David,
Perhaps there should be a new user edition, empty is "as pure as the
driven snow", and this is importiant for somewhat knowledgable users
wanting a fresh copy when they need it. But I agree with you and Bimlas.
Lets use this thread to build a list of things we would include in a new
user wiki and make such an addition.
We could even create a button to create or delete these additions.
Toc already installed
A home page in the toc with a set of guidence tiddlers below (abouts and
high level how to tiddlers) most will link to tiddlywiki.com tiddlers.
Eg;
How to create tiddlers or "content" in tiddlywiki
How to write in tiddlywiki markdown
How to connect tiddlers with tags eg new here
How to list tiddlers with the same
How to backup your tiddlywiki
How to save your work
How to get or transfer content - tiddlers, bundles of tiddlers, plugins
tag(s)/combination of tags
How to find plugins via libraries, listings, search, googlegroups
How to get help (search tiddlywiki.com, see find below, search gg, ask gg)
How to find more learning resources
How to find more resources
How to make something appear on every tiddler
About filters (built in first then make your own) filter operators
About searching ( in sidebar, advanced search, search operator)
About editions (empty, new user, others your own)
About saving your work
- default save
- timimi
- support plugins
- get a server to save it for you from (file to http)
About fields
Glossary of terms common in tiddlywiki
- file based or single file tiddlywiki
- folder based wiki
- transclusion
- widgets
- macros
- plugins
- bundles (of tiddlers)
About mobile first
About on your desktop
About tiddlywiki as a platform
About taas tiddlywiki as a service - tiddlyspot, noteself, maarfapad
How to share tiddlywikis - file, taas, cloud, html, PHP server, nodejs, tiddlyserver, bob
How to view tiddlywiki files - browser (file/html), apps with browsers built in -
Did you know?
- you can change the editor/use external editors
More?
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-11-03 14:17:09 UTC
Permalink
There's a lot of good documentation on TiddlyWiki.com. It just doesn't hang
together in narrative form, and for some reason new users aren't
discovering the friendly write-ups about filters and such.

Perhaps we could quiz new users about what they did and didn't find at TW
when they went looking for answers.

As for fixing docs at TW, I feel that is hopeless with the current
situation. When you can spend an afternoon making documentation, and then
have it ignored for more than a year ... well, I give up. I currently have
10 PR's outstanding. It is too frustrating.

I've started on my own manual. I started it in Dynalist actually, but then
switched to org-mode because it has more authoring tools (bookmarks,
spell-check, etc.). But for a group-project it would need something like
DL. It's hard to maintain the enthusiasm because the user base is so small
-- you know, once someone learns something ... they're no longer a beginner!

-- Mark
Post by David Gifford
Just to be clear, what you are proposing is something inbetween empty.html
and tiddlywiki.com? An edition for newbies that has introductory
documentation and a few things preinstalled?
My take would be that the documentation (most of your list) should stay on
tiddlywiki.com, rather than a parallel scaled down version that has to be
maintained separately. What is needed is to make a lot of the existing
documentation more user friendly for soccer moms and busy office workers.
The problem is that not everyone here can write in that way - they have
been techies for too long, and an explanation that sounds abundantly clear
to them - and is - is not clear at all for the rest of us. So they double
down on explaining the abstract definition of a filter or widget, thinking
that will help. Most of us couldn't care less about the definitions and the
concepts. We just want to know what we might use it for and how to use it
without destroying the Internet.
I did some of the work - a number of the tiddlers at
https://tiddlywiki.com/#Working%20with%20TiddlyWiki back in 2014. And of
course the toolmap and my earlier "TW for the rest of us" and TiddlyVault
for classic TW. But I don't have time or knowhow to do much more nowadays.
In addition to better documentation, we should have a) an array of
editions for various use cases and b) a library of one-function-only nearly
empty tws that have one thing - vertical tabs, a table of contents, etc -
and instructions on how to install that one thing and modify it, both for
mobile and for laptop. Then have links to these things on tiddlywiki.com
and the toolmap or whatever is cooked up to replace it.
One issue is that it is less glamorous - and feels like a step backwards
- for most TW regulars to spend time looking at the basic stuff we learned
years ago in order to help others understand them. We would rather create
new cutting edge stuff. For some, that means new plugins. For me that means
new combinations of elements to create new workflows for my personal uses -
notetaking, organizing my ideas, web publishing, and productivity. It is
easy to feel we have too many important things to do at those levels, and
that doing documentation would be a boring chore and a bad use of our time.
But if a few key players could commit themselves to devote 2-3 hours a
month (or whatever) to evaluating and cleaning up documentation on
tiddlywiki.com, that would go a long way.
okay that is my two cents for today. Blessings.
Post by TonyM
David,
Perhaps there should be a new user edition, empty is "as pure as the
driven snow", and this is importiant for somewhat knowledgable users
wanting a fresh copy when they need it. But I agree with you and Bimlas.
Lets use this thread to build a list of things we would include in a new
user wiki and make such an addition.
We could even create a button to create or delete these additions.
Toc already installed
A home page in the toc with a set of guidence tiddlers below (abouts and
high level how to tiddlers) most will link to tiddlywiki.com tiddlers.
Eg;
How to create tiddlers or "content" in tiddlywiki
How to write in tiddlywiki markdown
How to connect tiddlers with tags eg new here
How to list tiddlers with the same
How to backup your tiddlywiki
How to save your work
How to get or transfer content - tiddlers, bundles of tiddlers, plugins
tag(s)/combination of tags
How to find plugins via libraries, listings, search, googlegroups
How to get help (search tiddlywiki.com, see find below, search gg, ask gg)
How to find more learning resources
How to find more resources
How to make something appear on every tiddler
About filters (built in first then make your own) filter operators
About searching ( in sidebar, advanced search, search operator)
About editions (empty, new user, others your own)
About saving your work
- default save
- timimi
- support plugins
- get a server to save it for you from (file to http)
About fields
Glossary of terms common in tiddlywiki
- file based or single file tiddlywiki
- folder based wiki
- transclusion
- widgets
- macros
- plugins
- bundles (of tiddlers)
About mobile first
About on your desktop
About tiddlywiki as a platform
About taas tiddlywiki as a service - tiddlyspot, noteself, maarfapad
How to share tiddlywikis - file, taas, cloud, html, PHP server, nodejs, tiddlyserver, bob
How to view tiddlywiki files - browser (file/html), apps with browsers built in -
Did you know?
- you can change the editor/use external editors
More?
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-11-03 14:49:30 UTC
Permalink
Mark S. I agree with all you wrote.

And I hear and see the frustration. In my own case, more observer than
doer, I find the main Github very UNsatisfying to even read.

IMO, we are locked into a "two-men-and-one-dog" problem ... the demands
seriously ahead of fulfillment from lack of workers. And the few people
committed in it can't possibly keep up.

Regarding the OP ... I think its best thought of as part of some kind of
strategic "outreach" someone interested needs do (enthusiast like TonyM?),
rather than demand on a central system that can't cope.

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
There's a lot of good documentation on TiddlyWiki.com. It just doesn't
hang together in narrative form, and for some reason new users aren't
discovering the friendly write-ups about filters and such.
Perhaps we could quiz new users about what they did and didn't find at TW
when they went looking for answers.
As for fixing docs at TW, I feel that is hopeless with the current
situation. When you can spend an afternoon making documentation, and then
have it ignored for more than a year ... well, I give up. I currently have
10 PR's outstanding. It is too frustrating.
I've started on my own manual. I started it in Dynalist actually, but then
switched to org-mode because it has more authoring tools (bookmarks,
spell-check, etc.). But for a group-project it would need something like
DL. It's hard to maintain the enthusiasm because the user base is so small
-- you know, once someone learns something ... they're no longer a beginner!
-- Mark
Post by David Gifford
Just to be clear, what you are proposing is something inbetween
empty.html and tiddlywiki.com? An edition for newbies that has
introductory documentation and a few things preinstalled?
My take would be that the documentation (most of your list) should stay
on tiddlywiki.com, rather than a parallel scaled down version that has
to be maintained separately. What is needed is to make a lot of the
existing documentation more user friendly for soccer moms and busy office
workers. The problem is that not everyone here can write in that way - they
have been techies for too long, and an explanation that sounds abundantly
clear to them - and is - is not clear at all for the rest of us. So they
double down on explaining the abstract definition of a filter or widget,
thinking that will help. Most of us couldn't care less about the
definitions and the concepts. We just want to know what we might use it for
and how to use it without destroying the Internet.
I did some of the work - a number of the tiddlers at
https://tiddlywiki.com/#Working%20with%20TiddlyWiki back in 2014. And of
course the toolmap and my earlier "TW for the rest of us" and TiddlyVault
for classic TW. But I don't have time or knowhow to do much more nowadays.
In addition to better documentation, we should have a) an array of
editions for various use cases and b) a library of one-function-only nearly
empty tws that have one thing - vertical tabs, a table of contents, etc -
and instructions on how to install that one thing and modify it, both for
mobile and for laptop. Then have links to these things on tiddlywiki.com
and the toolmap or whatever is cooked up to replace it.
One issue is that it is less glamorous - and feels like a step backwards
- for most TW regulars to spend time looking at the basic stuff we learned
years ago in order to help others understand them. We would rather create
new cutting edge stuff. For some, that means new plugins. For me that means
new combinations of elements to create new workflows for my personal uses -
notetaking, organizing my ideas, web publishing, and productivity. It is
easy to feel we have too many important things to do at those levels, and
that doing documentation would be a boring chore and a bad use of our time.
But if a few key players could commit themselves to devote 2-3 hours a
month (or whatever) to evaluating and cleaning up documentation on
tiddlywiki.com, that would go a long way.
okay that is my two cents for today. Blessings.
Post by TonyM
David,
Perhaps there should be a new user edition, empty is "as pure as the
driven snow", and this is importiant for somewhat knowledgable users
wanting a fresh copy when they need it. But I agree with you and Bimlas.
Lets use this thread to build a list of things we would include in a new
user wiki and make such an addition.
We could even create a button to create or delete these additions.
Toc already installed
A home page in the toc with a set of guidence tiddlers below (abouts and
high level how to tiddlers) most will link to tiddlywiki.com tiddlers.
Eg;
How to create tiddlers or "content" in tiddlywiki
How to write in tiddlywiki markdown
How to connect tiddlers with tags eg new here
How to list tiddlers with the same
How to backup your tiddlywiki
How to save your work
How to get or transfer content - tiddlers, bundles of tiddlers, plugins
tag(s)/combination of tags
How to find plugins via libraries, listings, search, googlegroups
How to get help (search tiddlywiki.com, see find below, search gg, ask gg)
How to find more learning resources
How to find more resources
How to make something appear on every tiddler
About filters (built in first then make your own) filter operators
About searching ( in sidebar, advanced search, search operator)
About editions (empty, new user, others your own)
About saving your work
- default save
- timimi
- support plugins
- get a server to save it for you from (file to http)
About fields
Glossary of terms common in tiddlywiki
- file based or single file tiddlywiki
- folder based wiki
- transclusion
- widgets
- macros
- plugins
- bundles (of tiddlers)
About mobile first
About on your desktop
About tiddlywiki as a platform
About taas tiddlywiki as a service - tiddlyspot, noteself, maarfapad
How to share tiddlywikis - file, taas, cloud, html, PHP server, nodejs,
tiddlyserver, bob
How to view tiddlywiki files - browser (file/html), apps with browsers built in -
Did you know?
- you can change the editor/use external editors
More?
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-11-03 14:25:21 UTC
Permalink
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Jeremy Ruston
2018-11-03 17:37:19 UTC
Permalink
I agree with you, but the pushback I got years ago when I brought it up was,
TiddlyWiki is meant to be non-linear. Putting a TOC in the empty version goes against the principles used in dreaming up TiddlyWiki. And it perhaps promotes inflexibility in the user, as he or she might then be influenced away from more non-linear uses.
Was that me? I don't recognise that logic, do you have a reference to the discussion?

Best wishes

Jeremy.
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David Gifford
2018-11-04 16:15:01 UTC
Permalink
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bimlas
2018-11-03 15:55:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Gifford
TiddlyWiki is meant to be non-linear. Putting a TOC in the empty version
goes against the principles used in dreaming up TiddlyWiki.

@David Gifford: Now I understand why there is no ToC in the blank version.
The user is thus forced to think in non-linear notes and to use the search
bar, such as https: //www.wikipedia.org. This is good on the one hand
because it is new a way of thinking for the user, but if he does not likes
this way, he will immediately stop knowing Tiddly.
Post by David Gifford
Perhaps there should be a new user edition
My take would be that the documentation (most of your list) should stay
on tiddlywiki.com, rather than a parallel scaled down version that has to
be maintained separately.

@TonyM: I have to agree with @David Gifford: the documentation must be
written in one place (at Tiddly's website), in the "quickstart" version
only the appropriate links should be placed.
Post by David Gifford
In addition to better documentation, we should have a) an array of
editions for various use cases and b) a library of one-function-only nearly
empty tws that have one thing

I like the library of one-function-only solution, plugins are also
available in this way. In the quickstart, perhaps these links could be
placed instead of links to the descriptions, because users primarily want
to use the program, not learn it.If they miss a function, they can search
for a working solution from this list. Still thinking about this: this list
could be a central place because if we put new elements into it, they will
not appear in previously downloaded versions (even an idea: transclude this
list, so it would look like a general tiddler).
Post by David Gifford
But if a few key players could commit themselves to devote 2-3 hours a
month (or whatever) to evaluating and cleaning up documentation on
tiddlywiki.com, that would go a long way.

+1, I think it would be a good thing, but not on tiddlywiki.com (see below).
Post by David Gifford
When you can spend an afternoon making documentation, and then have it
ignored for more than a year ... well, I give up. I currently have 10 PR's
outstanding. It is too frustrating.

@Mark S: Unfortunately, I know this feeling. I saw the same problem with
Vim: the main developer is not always open to the user's involvement so
users started working on an alternative project, NeoVim. One solution might
be to further develop the official documentation in another location and
add new descriptions to it, so it would not have to wait for Jeremy to
approve it. The official documentation could include a link to this
"community documentation".

Summing up my thoughts:

* The blank version should contain a list of one-function-only versions
* Create a copy of the central documentation (tiddlywiki.com), which we
control ("community documentation")
* "Community documentation" could include different techniques and best
practices (the reference pages would not be included, those can still be
accessed at tiddlywiki.com)
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bimlas
2018-11-03 19:23:39 UTC
Permalink
While browsing the TiddlyWiki Toolmap
<https://dynalist.io/d/zUP-nIWu2FFoXH-oM7L7d9DM>, I found this:
http://erwanm.github.io/tw-community-search/
This is almost what I imagined. Does anybody know anything about this list?
Why did the project die? It seems the last modification of May 14 2017.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-11-03 19:43:51 UTC
Permalink
Erwan's aggregator IS functioning still, I think. The page says it last ran
just a few hours ago.

The issue is probably (1) few people know it exists; (2) you have to sign
up to get indexed and many don't sign up.
Post by bimlas
While browsing the TiddlyWiki Toolmap
http://erwanm.github.io/tw-community-search/
This is almost what I imagined. Does anybody know anything about this
list? Why did the project die? It seems the last modification of May 14
2017.
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bimlas
2018-11-03 20:35:32 UTC
Permalink
You're right.

I have also forgotten Tobi Beer's descriptions, which would virtually
comply with community documentation.

https://tobibeer.github.io/tb5/
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Thomas Elmiger
2018-11-03 21:05:22 UTC
Permalink
Just some thoughts:

Instead of making a new edition, I think we should have a series of
plugins, e.g.

- TiddlyWiki QuickStart Guide
- TiddlyWiki Filter Guide
- TiddlyWiki Server Guide
- ...
- TiddlyWiki Glossary

Why plugins?

- You can install them when you need them.
- You can delete them when you are done learning.
- Qualified authors can focus on their favorite topic, no
editor-in-chief is required.

The GettingStarted tiddler on tiddlywiki.com could then recommend to

- download Empty edition
- find a method to save (needs revision too)
- check out Guide plugins

Maybe a Guide developer edition could be helpful to set a standard,
including Tinka and macros for documentation.

Just my five cents. Have a nice Sunday!
Thomas
Post by bimlas
You're right.
I have also forgotten Tobi Beer's descriptions, which would virtually
comply with community documentation.
https://tobibeer.github.io/tb5/
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TonyM
2018-11-03 22:12:24 UTC
Permalink
A quick responce to comments about what I said,

Thomas, I agree with plugins, but no harm putting them in a new user edition that is in peoples face rather than the first expierience being empty.

All my proposed content is about providing information for new users to jump common hurdles they are presented with and we should intentionaly link to tiddlywiki.com such the full information is only found by using search and lookups in the appropriate locations, not in the new user edition.

Some hurdles demand narative explanation of concepts which are implied but not described in tiddlywiki.com

To me new users beed help with to things

Being able to construct things themself right away

Gain insight to the possibilities of tiddlywiki that they can practicaly do.

Regards
Tony
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TonyM
2018-11-04 00:02:13 UTC
Permalink
For new users

To me wherever we add the documentation, we need more info in referencing the current tiddler, most peoples answers involve literal references to tags and tiddler names, but if you want to copy wiki text to another tiddler, make a global macro or place it in the view template solutions need to refer to currentTiddler.

This was one of my biggest frustrations when first using tw5

Tony
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TonyM
2018-11-16 10:01:16 UTC
Permalink
Thomas,

I support moving such stuff into plugins. But for new users I think we need to provide an edition they can download and use with little friction. I have even come to believe a version of tiddlywiki.com and its documentation with addons for notes and guidence.

I will publish an example soon.

Regards
Tony
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Thomas Elmiger
2018-11-16 14:58:06 UTC
Permalink
Tony,

Make it an edition containing plugins with content and tutorials for
beginners :)

My case is: let them separate their own content and (no longer needed)
educational stuff easily whenever they want. Plugins would be ideal for
this in my eyes.

Cheers,
Thomas

sent from my mobile
Post by TonyM
Thomas,
I support moving such stuff into plugins. But for new users I think we
need to provide an edition they can download and use with little friction.
I have even come to believe a version of tiddlywiki.com and its
documentation with addons for notes and guidence.
I will publish an example soon.
Regards
Tony
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-11-16 15:19:01 UTC
Permalink
Right ... "I've learned. Please delete the instructions", button press.
Post by Thomas Elmiger
My case is: let them separate their own content and (no longer needed)
educational stuff easily whenever they want. Plugins would be ideal for
this in my eyes.
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PMario
2018-11-16 15:24:02 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, November 16, 2018 at 11:01:16 AM UTC+1, TonyM wrote:
...

I support moving such stuff into plugins.


The existing TOC can be released as a plugin but I think documentation
shouldn't! .. The "probelm" with plugin-like docs is, that you can't remove
it, once you don't need it anymore.

Plugin tiddlers live as shadow tiddlers, so it's hard to get rid of them.
You can remove the plugin, which would delete all tiddlers. ... BUT what,
if you only want to remove parts of the docs.

I'd suggest to use bundles instead. .... We would need to make those
documentation-bundles easier to be found. ...

But for new users I think we need to provide an edition they can download
Post by TonyM
and use with little friction.
An edition, that contains the TOC should be doable.
Post by TonyM
I have even come to believe a version of tiddlywiki.com and its
documentation with addons for notes and guidence.
It's easy to download the whole content of tiddlywiki.com - Just visit the
site and press the "save changes" button. It will automatically download a
full version.

The same is true for other editions, that provide (partially) translated
documentation. see: https://tiddlywiki.com/#Languages:Languages

have fun!
mario
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-11-16 15:36:26 UTC
Permalink
Right. And a Bundler with selective delete functions would be ideal ;-)

J.
Post by PMario
I'd suggest to use bundles instead. .... We would need to make those
documentation-bundles easier to be found. ...
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TonyM
2018-11-16 21:52:21 UTC
Permalink
Selective delete sure, but this would encourage people to make more of a
helping edition of tiddlywiki, by deleting they may go on to customise it
into a wiki of their own. I see the ability to export their notes more
important.

I am more interested in providing the tools, and gap filling documentation
for people to learn more about tiddlywiki but encourage them to obtain
empty.html or other editions for their working wikis.

When I started to focus on TW5 I did exactly this, download full
tiddlywiki.com, worked through all the documentation, took my own notes and
experimented. With hind sight I wish I could favourite, build my own toc,
log my own discoveries and document examples and in my own words.

Regards
Tony
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Right. And a Bundler with selective delete functions would be ideal ;-)
J.
Post by PMario
I'd suggest to use bundles instead. .... We would need to make those
documentation-bundles easier to be found. ...
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Lyn Headley
2018-11-03 21:45:31 UTC
Permalink
I'm a new user and just want to say the docs on tiddlywiki.com are really
helpful. I'm a bit of a techie though...
Post by bimlas
I've been using TiddlyWiki for about 3 months, but I've seen the mailing
list many times, "Why is there a small number of Tiddly users, even though
it's better/more flexible than other wikis?" I think the main problem is
that new users feel lost in trying out https://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html
When they write a new note, it appears in the Open sidebar, but as soon as
they are closing it, the note disappearing from the list, so they think
they have deleted their note, they do not know they can access it in the
Recent sidebar.
Let's assume that the user goes through the first barrier and finds that
he can find his notes using the Recent sidebar and the search box. He wants
to organize his notes in order to find them easier. Because he has used a
note-taking program before, so he thinks he can use tags. As a test, he
adds a tag to the note, then clicks on it and sees that the current note is
listed. He is happy about it, but he misses the list of tags because they
are not visible by default, he must look for it.
Our man is very clever, he finds the Tools -> Tag Manager list and the
More -> Tags sidebar, so he can use the wiki quite effectively. He thinks
he wants to write a book from his notes, so he wants to sort them into a
hierarchical system (table of contents). Since he not finds option / help
in his own wiki, he must search the web for the answer. He finds the answer
on
https://tiddlywiki.com/#Adding%20a%20table%20of%20contents%20to%20the%20sidebar
and can create a table of contents, but faces the fact that TiddlyWiki has
to be "hacked" to reach its goals. If our man is a programmer / scientist,
he's probably glad that TiddlyWiki is very open to modification, but if he
is a simple user, then that fact can be scare of it.
In my opinion, what is missing from TiddlyWiki is that navigation is more
- Include a default table of contents
- Show More -> Tags as a regular sidebar
- Open is rarelly used in my opinion (at least among ordinary users)
- Move "Tools" to the "More" sidebar (where Tags was)
Finally, there would be as many sidebars as before, but they would come to
the fore, which an average user (came from another wiki) uses more.
Translate!)
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a***@yandex.com
2018-11-04 12:20:29 UTC
Permalink
I, too, am a new user [about 2 weeks in] ... I consider myself to be
somewhere in-between totally non-techy and somewhat-knowledgeable-techy.
Unfortunately, as frustrating as it is, I have to come to grips with the
fact that I am just not cut out to understand programming on any level.

I started my TW5 journey by reading *everything* on the TW5 site, as well
as following every link to other sites I could find. [Information overload,
anyone???]

When I read the TW5 site, I didn't understand most of what I was reading at
the time. Now that I am trying to implement my own Wikis, *some* of it is
starting to make some sense, but a lot of it still doesn't yet. I find the
explanations are usually way over my head. Even the majority of the posts
on this mailing list are way over my head, but I am *really* trying to
understand as much as I can to get the most out of TW5 because I recognize
it's value and flexibility.

As for the most complete resources to what other people have done with TW5
are Dave's dynalist ... which I only *just* found the other day since I
read about it in one of these forum posts. The other fairly complete list
was on a reddit page.

One of the other major things I'm finding is that *most* of what is out
there is so old [as in prior to 2017], that I am constantly wondering if
the information is still valid today [despite the future-proofing
principle]. The other thing I am finding, is I don't want to waste time
re-inventing wheels if somebody has already created a plugin / widget to do
it far better than I could possibly do on my own any way.

What I have resorted to doing is bookmarking the TW5 site, as well as
Dave's DL. I have also downloaded a whole lot of demos for solutions that
*somewhat* appeal to me to try sometime down the road when I am a lot more
familiar with TW5.

To be honest, the wiki's that do *solely* one thing only, together with the
documentation and examples of exactly how to do that one thing well [with
maybe some reasons as to WHY this way is better than other ways?] have been
the most helpful to me at this point. I NOW know that I can import it
straight into one of my wikis, and then experiment from there. This has
been a very helpful way of expanding my understanding of what TW5 is
capable of.

Also, just yesterday, I started yet another wiki ... to be used as my own
TW5 "knowledge base" ... why? Because the way I organize things seems to
be totally different than the way most of you do ... and this way I can
find it more quickly when I need it. Obviously, this is going to be an
ongoing work in progress, and should it ever get to the place where I think
it may benefit others, I will follow another recent tutorial I found on
creating my own GitHub Pages and upload it, and share it with the rest of
the community.

My purpose in responding in this thread is to give some perspective from a
new user who really doesn't have anywhere near the technical skills most of
you do. That being said ... I also want to thank all of you for what all
the work and time you invest into this project. I *highly* respect what
each of you bring to the table as a community to share your knowledge and
expertise with the rest of us. I have found nothing but very quick and
respectful help to people who have questions, or who need help on figuring
something out. I appreciate that ... *very* much!

Thanks,
AgedLace
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Julio Peña
2018-11-04 18:55:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yandex.com
Also, just yesterday, I started yet another wiki ... to be used as my own
TW5 "knowledge base" ...
Hello AgedLace and All,

Which is exactly what I did early on for myself. I do rely and refer to the
Tiddlywiki main site's documentation often for clarification, but overall,
I rely mostly on the community and their projects for guidance and
inspiration.

In the Tiddlywiki realm I like to title myself as an "enthusiast"...not an
expert by any means. Since my approach is similar to "monkey see monkey do
then monkey think", I like to take bits and pieces of ideas and the play
with them and then try to mold them to my liking. I take stuff that catches
my interest and then when I have time I test around so that I can implement
in my off-line wikis. For that I uploaded a test Tiddlywiki to Tiddlyspot
a long time ago.

You can see here what I test in there: http://jpentw5.tiddlyspot.com/.

It's only a test site. I hope I didn't take away from the topic at hand.


Best regards to all,

Julio
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S. S.
2018-11-05 06:21:29 UTC
Permalink
*Below is a short excerpt of my notes from when I first started using
TiddlyWiki.*

*----- begin -----*

When I was brand new to TiddlyWiki, one of the first things I did was to
add some tiddlers with a few notes from my extensive personal notes text
file. Just Tiddler Titles, and a sentence or two of text in each tiddler.
Once I had done a few of those and saved the file, I wanted to know how to
find them easily again. The "Recent" tab did not seem the right way. I
wanted a "Contents" tab like on the TW5 home page <https://tiddlywiki.com/>,
and I wondered why there wasn't one. After all, the TiddlyWiki homepage had
a Contents tab - why was mine missing this? And why was it missing that
<more-actions> icon? "Strange", I thought.


I typed "Contents" into the search bar of my TW - but nothing.
Then , I typed "Contents" into the search bar on the TiddlyWiki home page,
and opened the tiddler named "*Contents*"
This was not useful. In fact it caused a lot of confusion as it was full of
strange Latin writing, and led onwards to "*Table-of-Contents Macros
(Examples)*".

Next from the search box I clicked on "*Adding a table of contents to the
sidebar*". I read this but found it confusing. What was the "sidebar"? What
did "Give it the tag $:/tags/SideBar" mean? What was a "tag?" How did one
"give the tag?" (Some days later, when I had figured these out, even when I
made the " TableOfContents" tiddler, nothing showed up.)

On the last line of the "*Adding a table of contents to the sidebar*"
tiddler, it says:
"Add entries to the table of contents by creating tiddlers tagged
TableOfContents. An easy way is to choose < new-here icon> new here from
the tiddler toolbar. To create sub-entries, tag them with the name of the
parent entry."

There was no <new-here icon> on the tiddler toolbar. Without clear
instructions, it was not "intuitive" to find this by clicking the
<more-actions icon> on the upper right of the tiddler.

Nor was it clear what "creating sub entries" meant. How did one "create sub
entries?" More confusing was "tag them with the name of the parent entry."
What was a "tag?" How did one tag? What was a "parent entry?"

On the top line of the tiddler - *Adding a table of contents to the sidebar*
- is the following line:
A customisable *table of contents* can be added to the sidebar with the
following steps:

Clicking the link: *table of contents* : takes on the the tiddler: *Table-of-Contents
Macros*
What is a Macro? How does one use these? : *toc toc-expandable
toc-selective-expandable toc-tabbed-internal-nav and
toc-tabbed-external-nav*
More confusion.

A little too advanced flow for the beginner. As a first step, I just want a
table of contents that shows the few new tiddlers I have just made. That
would make me so happy. Later, I can figure out how to do more, but right
now, at the beginning, when I am just starting, I want it simple and easy,
and to be able to see some result immediately.

*----- end -----*

Making the layout of the empty TW similar to the what is on tiddlywiki.com
could be beneficial. It avoids the initial confusion of "why are these
missing?"
That would mean having a "Contents" tab, and also displaying the
"More-actions" icon.

The challenge might be - WHAT tiddler(s) are included in the empty.html
that will be tagged with "TableOfContents" so that they show up in the
newly included "*TableOfContents*" tiddler? What will they refer to? A few
basic help tiddlers? An empty Journal entry?

I imagine the LESS clutter in the empty.html the better, so what is the
right balance?
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-11-05 10:41:55 UTC
Permalink
All ...

This is a fabulous thread! It seriously thought about issues of
"starting-out with TW."

I really appreciate the detailed posts by "s. s."
(https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/y7THOx9VJtQ) and
"aged..."
(https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/y7THOx9VJtQ/7LpWGGXSAwAJ). Its
important if you are interested in broader reach for TW to understand,
specifically, the needs of potential users who guess it can help them but
just want to get on with it, not spend weeks figuring out what is going on.

Regarding the OP, the issue was, in a way, whether "empty" is "too empty"
-- especially with regards to a TOC. I agree in the sense that "empty" is,
in many ways a "tabula rasa" (blank slate) that can be confusing. But it
has much merit NOT getting too structured too early.

I'm also skeptical that adding a "standard" TOC to "empty" will solve the
"newbie" problem in the way needed. This is because the KIND of TOC needed
would vary by the FUNCTIONAL needs of the user. For instance,
tiddlywiki.com has a TOC for **its** purpose ... but someone writing a
novel would need a different TOC structure; and a person writing and
publishing Tweets to Twitter a different one again; or a gamer with yet
other needs; so too a blogger.

The key point I think I'm trying to get to is that uptake would be improved
with more "Start Wiki" -- One for programmers, one for fiction writers, one
for social networkers etc. To some extent "editions" available via
tiddlywiki.com provide some of that. But they are "bare-bones" (and need to
be because Central Services can't possibly deal with all the variant
potential usages). So by "Start Wiki" I'm meaning TW that are more
replete--for instance a "Novelists Starter Kit TW" might include plugins
for organising tiddlers by, say, "Chapter"? (Thomas Elmigers "ListReveal"
would to that very well--probably fat better than a TOC in a menu)

In other words, I think the broader issue is as much about having a larger
"showcase" of TW implementations. I'd say the "TOC issue" is simply *A*
signal of the lack of "Start Wiki".

Those are my current reflections.

Best wishes
Josiah
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TonyM
2018-11-05 11:57:51 UTC
Permalink
I think Bimlas is in a unique position to ask this type of question because bimlas has a technical mind and is delivering real value to the community, such as with the kin operator yet is finding it difficult to do things that should be somewhat intuitive to new users.

Building a toc is a simple, and some would say should be an automatic outcome of using tiddlywiki.

I always try and put myself in the mind of a nieve user even although I have years of IT expierence. I remain empathetic to Bimlas's dismay that the new tiddlywiki user expirence is difficult, it stopped me jumping from twc for years. I see no reason to force the first expirence of new users to be a minimal empty version designed for distribution of a minimalist build for expirenced users.

I have started building a new user edition. It has a toc and tells you to use "new here" to build it.

Regards
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bimlas
2018-11-05 12:21:03 UTC
Permalink
Before you go very far, how would you like me to do a questionnaire about
what the new users want to see? Now my time does not allow me to make one,
but you can easily do that on https://www.google.com/forms/about/

The users have described their experience and can express their needs in
this form.
Post by TonyM
I think Bimlas is in a unique position to ask this type of question
because bimlas has a technical mind and is delivering real value to the
community, such as with the kin operator yet is finding it difficult to do
things that should be somewhat intuitive to new users.
Building a toc is a simple, and some would say should be an automatic
outcome of using tiddlywiki.
I always try and put myself in the mind of a nieve user even although I
have years of IT expierence. I remain empathetic to Bimlas's dismay that
the new tiddlywiki user expirence is difficult, it stopped me jumping from
twc for years. I see no reason to force the first expirence of new users to
be a minimal empty version designed for distribution of a minimalist build
for expirenced users.
I have started building a new user edition. It has a toc and tells you to
use "new here" to build it.
Regards
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-11-05 17:02:15 UTC
Permalink
For a new user, the "recent" tab is a working TOC.

A real TOC means that there has to be a relationship between tiddlers,
based on tagging. So there could be no automatic TOC without forcing a
structure on people. I guess you could have every tiddler automatically
tagged as "Unassigned" and then have a TOC based on that tag. But it would
be functionally no different from the "Recent" tab until the user learned
how to create their own tag tree.

Your notes are really good. If it was a year ago, I would probably take
them and make a PR (that's an update request to the Github repository) with
all or most of the changes. But knowing that the changes might sit in limbo
for months or years (by which time the technology might have changed),
that approach is less appealing.

Thanks!
-- Mark
Post by S. S.
*Below is a short excerpt of my notes from when I first started using
TiddlyWiki.*
*----- begin -----*
When I was brand new to TiddlyWiki, one of the first things I did was to
add some tiddlers with a few notes from my extensive personal notes text
file. Just Tiddler Titles, and a sentence or two of text in each tiddler.
Once I had done a few of those and saved the file, I wanted to know how to
find them easily again. The "Recent" tab did not seem the right way. I
wanted a "Contents" tab like on the TW5 home page
<https://tiddlywiki.com/>, and I wondered why there wasn't one. After
all, the TiddlyWiki homepage had a Contents tab - why was mine missing
this? And why was it missing that <more-actions> icon? "Strange", I thought.
I typed "Contents" into the search bar of my TW - but nothing.
Then , I typed "Contents" into the search bar on the TiddlyWiki home page,
and opened the tiddler named "*Contents*"
This was not useful. In fact it caused a lot of confusion as it was full
of strange Latin writing, and led onwards to "*Table-of-Contents Macros
(Examples)*".
Next from the search box I clicked on "*Adding a table of contents to the
sidebar*". I read this but found it confusing. What was the "sidebar"?
What did "Give it the tag $:/tags/SideBar" mean? What was a "tag?" How did
one "give the tag?" (Some days later, when I had figured these out, even
when I made the " TableOfContents" tiddler, nothing showed up.)
On the last line of the "*Adding a table of contents to the sidebar*"
"Add entries to the table of contents by creating tiddlers tagged
TableOfContents. An easy way is to choose < new-here icon> new here from
the tiddler toolbar. To create sub-entries, tag them with the name of the
parent entry."
There was no <new-here icon> on the tiddler toolbar. Without clear
instructions, it was not "intuitive" to find this by clicking the
<more-actions icon> on the upper right of the tiddler.
Nor was it clear what "creating sub entries" meant. How did one "create
sub entries?" More confusing was "tag them with the name of the parent
entry." What was a "tag?" How did one tag? What was a "parent entry?"
On the top line of the tiddler - *Adding a table of contents to the
A customisable *table of contents* can be added to the sidebar with the
Clicking the link: *table of contents* : takes on the the tiddler: *Table-of-Contents
Macros*
What is a Macro? How does one use these? : *toc toc-expandable
toc-selective-expandable toc-tabbed-internal-nav and
toc-tabbed-external-nav*
More confusion.
A little too advanced flow for the beginner. As a first step, I just want
a table of contents that shows the few new tiddlers I have just made. That
would make me so happy. Later, I can figure out how to do more, but right
now, at the beginning, when I am just starting, I want it simple and easy,
and to be able to see some result immediately.
*----- end -----*
Making the layout of the empty TW similar to the what is on tiddlywiki.com
could be beneficial. It avoids the initial confusion of "why are these
missing?"
That would mean having a "Contents" tab, and also displaying the
"More-actions" icon.
The challenge might be - WHAT tiddler(s) are included in the empty.html
that will be tagged with "TableOfContents" so that they show up in the
newly included "*TableOfContents*" tiddler? What will they refer to? A
few basic help tiddlers? An empty Journal entry?
I imagine the LESS clutter in the empty.html the better, so what is the
right balance?
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-11-06 22:54:10 UTC
Permalink
Not sure how much of an improvement it is, but incorporated some of your
notes in PR3518 <https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/3518>

-- Mark
Post by S. S.
*Below is a short excerpt of my notes from when I first started using
TiddlyWiki.*
*----- begin -----*
When I was brand new to TiddlyWiki, one of the first things I did was to
add some tiddlers with a few notes from my extensive personal notes text
file. Just Tiddler Titles, and a sentence or two of text in each tiddler.
Once I had done a few of those and saved the file, I wanted to know how to
find them easily again. The "Recent" tab did not seem the right way. I
wanted a "Contents" tab like on the TW5 home page
<https://tiddlywiki.com/>, and I wondered why there wasn't one. After
all, the TiddlyWiki homepage had a Contents tab - why was mine missing
this? And why was it missing that <more-actions> icon? "Strange", I thought.
I typed "Contents" into the search bar of my TW - but nothing.
Then , I typed "Contents" into the search bar on the TiddlyWiki home page,
and opened the tiddler named "*Contents*"
This was not useful. In fact it caused a lot of confusion as it was full
of strange Latin writing, and led onwards to "*Table-of-Contents Macros
(Examples)*".
Next from the search box I clicked on "*Adding a table of contents to the
sidebar*". I read this but found it confusing. What was the "sidebar"?
What did "Give it the tag $:/tags/SideBar" mean? What was a "tag?" How did
one "give the tag?" (Some days later, when I had figured these out, even
when I made the " TableOfContents" tiddler, nothing showed up.)
On the last line of the "*Adding a table of contents to the sidebar*"
"Add entries to the table of contents by creating tiddlers tagged
TableOfContents. An easy way is to choose < new-here icon> new here from
the tiddler toolbar. To create sub-entries, tag them with the name of the
parent entry."
There was no <new-here icon> on the tiddler toolbar. Without clear
instructions, it was not "intuitive" to find this by clicking the
<more-actions icon> on the upper right of the tiddler.
Nor was it clear what "creating sub entries" meant. How did one "create
sub entries?" More confusing was "tag them with the name of the parent
entry." What was a "tag?" How did one tag? What was a "parent entry?"
On the top line of the tiddler - *Adding a table of contents to the
A customisable *table of contents* can be added to the sidebar with the
Clicking the link: *table of contents* : takes on the the tiddler: *Table-of-Contents
Macros*
What is a Macro? How does one use these? : *toc toc-expandable
toc-selective-expandable toc-tabbed-internal-nav and
toc-tabbed-external-nav*
More confusion.
A little too advanced flow for the beginner. As a first step, I just want
a table of contents that shows the few new tiddlers I have just made. That
would make me so happy. Later, I can figure out how to do more, but right
now, at the beginning, when I am just starting, I want it simple and easy,
and to be able to see some result immediately.
*----- end -----*
Making the layout of the empty TW similar to the what is on tiddlywiki.com
could be beneficial. It avoids the initial confusion of "why are these
missing?"
That would mean having a "Contents" tab, and also displaying the
"More-actions" icon.
The challenge might be - WHAT tiddler(s) are included in the empty.html
that will be tagged with "TableOfContents" so that they show up in the
newly included "*TableOfContents*" tiddler? What will they refer to? A
few basic help tiddlers? An empty Journal entry?
I imagine the LESS clutter in the empty.html the better, so what is the
right balance?
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S. S.
2018-11-16 08:20:47 UTC
Permalink
If it's problematic to find a way of including a generic Table of Contents
in the empty.html tiddlywiki, perhaps in the meantime, having simple *step
by step, detailed beginner's help* will be useful.

Inspired by Mark S.'s quick work of improving TW's tiddler: Adding a table
of contents to the sidebar
<https://tiddlywiki.com/#Adding%20a%20table%20of%20contents%20to%20the%20sidebar>
, and submitting it (PR3518
<https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/3518>) on github, my attempt
to help on this issue has been posted in the TiddlyWikiDocs Google Group
under the title Beginners help for Table of Contents
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywikidocs/008FhZq2KEc>.

Feedback on that effort would make it easier to complete this successfully.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Not sure how much of an improvement it is, but incorporated some of your
notes in PR3518 <https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/3518>
-- Mark
Post by S. S.
*Below is a short excerpt of my notes from when I first started using
TiddlyWiki.*
*----- begin -----*
When I was brand new to TiddlyWiki, one of the first things I did was to
add some tiddlers with a few notes from my extensive personal notes text
file. Just Tiddler Titles, and a sentence or two of text in each tiddler.
Once I had done a few of those and saved the file, I wanted to know how to
find them easily again. The "Recent" tab did not seem the right way. I
wanted a "Contents" tab like on the TW5 home page
<https://tiddlywiki.com/>, and I wondered why there wasn't one. After
all, the TiddlyWiki homepage had a Contents tab - why was mine missing
this? And why was it missing that <more-actions> icon? "Strange", I thought.
I typed "Contents" into the search bar of my TW - but nothing.
Then , I typed "Contents" into the search bar on the TiddlyWiki home
page, and opened the tiddler named "*Contents*"
This was not useful. In fact it caused a lot of confusion as it was full
of strange Latin writing, and led onwards to "*Table-of-Contents Macros
(Examples)*".
Next from the search box I clicked on "*Adding a table of contents to
the sidebar*". I read this but found it confusing. What was the
"sidebar"? What did "Give it the tag $:/tags/SideBar" mean? What was a
"tag?" How did one "give the tag?" (Some days later, when I had figured
these out, even when I made the " TableOfContents" tiddler, nothing showed
up.)
On the last line of the "*Adding a table of contents to the sidebar*"
"Add entries to the table of contents by creating tiddlers tagged
TableOfContents. An easy way is to choose < new-here icon> new here from
the tiddler toolbar. To create sub-entries, tag them with the name of the
parent entry."
There was no <new-here icon> on the tiddler toolbar. Without clear
instructions, it was not "intuitive" to find this by clicking the
<more-actions icon> on the upper right of the tiddler.
Nor was it clear what "creating sub entries" meant. How did one "create
sub entries?" More confusing was "tag them with the name of the parent
entry." What was a "tag?" How did one tag? What was a "parent entry?"
On the top line of the tiddler - *Adding a table of contents to the
A customisable *table of contents* can be added to the sidebar with the
Clicking the link: *table of contents* : takes on the the tiddler: *Table-of-Contents
Macros*
What is a Macro? How does one use these? : *toc toc-expandable
toc-selective-expandable toc-tabbed-internal-nav and
toc-tabbed-external-nav*
More confusion.
A little too advanced flow for the beginner. As a first step, I just want
a table of contents that shows the few new tiddlers I have just made. That
would make me so happy. Later, I can figure out how to do more, but right
now, at the beginning, when I am just starting, I want it simple and easy,
and to be able to see some result immediately.
*----- end -----*
Making the layout of the empty TW similar to the what is on
tiddlywiki.com could be beneficial. It avoids the initial confusion of
"why are these missing?"
That would mean having a "Contents" tab, and also displaying the
"More-actions" icon.
The challenge might be - WHAT tiddler(s) are included in the empty.html
that will be tagged with "TableOfContents" so that they show up in the
newly included "*TableOfContents*" tiddler? What will they refer to? A
few basic help tiddlers? An empty Journal entry?
I imagine the LESS clutter in the empty.html the better, so what is the
right balance?
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PMario
2018-11-16 16:14:14 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, November 2, 2018 at 10:37:30 PM UTC+1, bimlas wrote:
...
Post by bimlas
When they write a new note, it appears in the Open sidebar, but as soon as
they are closing it, the note disappearing from the list, so they think
they have deleted their note, they do not know they can access it in the
Recent sidebar.
I think this is a very valid issue ... for newbie users. ... The problem
disappears, once you got it. ... So it doesn't have a high priority, for
most users who post here on the list.

I did create a prototype, that you can download and import, for a new
"Open" tab, that shows a new button, if the list is empty.

That can be improved, but I think you get the idea. Similar thing could
happen for "Create a TOC tab here"

have fun!
mario
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bimlas
2018-11-16 22:37:11 UTC
Permalink
I like the idea, though a new user I think will not close the default
tiddler, but just create a new one -> the Open list will not be empty the
button is not showed at all.

However, you have a good insight: the point is to inform the visitor once
about where to find the main things and what he sees on the screen. I think
Maarfapad has solved this very nicely:
https://cdn.rawgit.com/abesamma/TW5-editions/78846468/empty.html

There is a Javascript library for that
(https://cdn.rawgit.com/abesamma/TW5-editions/78846468/empty.html#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Ftutorial-maker),
but if we do not use the solution, a similar, simple and understandable
"tutorial" would be great.
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PMario
2018-11-16 23:57:14 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

That's a nice intro. The current implementation need an online connection
to work. ...

TWs internal state can be manipulated with tiddlers. So it should be
possible to achieve the same or a similar thing with TW itself.

-m
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-11-17 14:12:22 UTC
Permalink
SO what is the issue?

The OP focused on Sidebars. That spanned out into replete help systems and
wotnot. Then we went through discussion of how much help to provide,
delete, organise etc. Sounds TOO complicated.

The missing piece, IMO, is WHICH types of user we are talking about? We
talking about a person just wanting to write notes? Or a writer interested
in structuring a novel?

Where are the specifics of USAGE fitted to audiences?

Josiah
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bimlas
2018-11-17 15:37:00 UTC
Permalink
@TiddlyTweeter,
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
The OP focused on Sidebars.
The OP is about making a better first impression of TiddlyWiki, making it
more familiar to users coming from elsewhere (Evernote, Boostnote, OneNote,
etc.). Current behavior seems complicated: first, you need to discover the
program so that you can use it. This is in contrast to "You are not serving
the machine, the machine is serving you!" philosophy.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
That spanned out into replete help systems and wotnot.
Yes, the topic went to a higher level, which is a good thing because the
real question was answered by the respondents: how could Tiddly be made
more user-friendly?
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Where are the specifics of USAGE fitted to audiences?
It is not important for first to see how Tiddly is versatile, but
functional and reliable. If someone finds that his notes seem to be lost,
he will not deal with the program, but he is looking for another one. We
can list links to various editions as a showcase, but first of all, let the
user know that if he is making a note, he can search for it and find it.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-11-17 16:22:48 UTC
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Thanks bimlas. Good post!

My query is whether this is accurate ...

bimlas wrote...
Post by bimlas
It is not important for first to see how Tiddly is versatile, but
functional and reliable. If someone finds that his notes seem to be lost,
he will not deal with the program, but he is looking for another one. We
can list links to various editions as a showcase, but first of all, let the
user know that if he is making a note, he can search for it and find it.
I am NOT sure this is optimal. My own sense is that it would be better to
have SPECIFIC solutions matched to the app. Of course that assumes
something: that one is interested in promoting specific TW applications
rather than a generic system.

IMO the MORE honed and SPECIFIC the APP is the EASIER it is to support it
with PRECISION.

Just thoughts
Josiah
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bimlas
2018-11-17 15:07:44 UTC
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Regardless of what I said, your solution should be in the core: a button to
open recent tiddlers is better than an empty sidebar.
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PMario
2018-11-17 19:50:56 UTC
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Post by bimlas
Regardless of what I said, your solution should be in the core: a button
to open recent tiddlers is better than an empty sidebar.
I did create a small proof of concept.

Just import and test. ... The real thing needs to work with translations.
But yoou get the intention.

-m
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bimlas
2018-11-17 20:16:24 UTC
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OMG... o_O

Loading Image...

*You've just made the Tiddly usable for everyone...!* I am very impressed
by the fact that you have implemented the settings window in such a simple,
elegant and transparent manner. Your code is very clean, you really
understand your business, *you just turned into a Tiddly half-god in my
eyes. True respect!*

PS.: I really like to see your public wiki, what's the URL? Mine is
https://bimlas.gitlab.io/
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PMario
2018-11-17 15:05:38 UTC
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On Friday, November 2, 2018 at 10:37:30 PM UTC+1, bimlas wrote:
....
Post by bimlas
- Include a default table of contents
empty.html shows the GettingStarted tiddler. It contains some basic
setups. It would be easy to implement a new "line" that says:

Would you like to have a TableOfContents similar to the one used at
tiddlywiki(dot)com?

- If the user selects yes, it will be created.
- If the user selects no, a list of tiddlers, that need to be deleted will
be shown.
Post by bimlas
-
- Show More -> Tags as a regular sidebar
It should be easy to make this setting configurable. ... BUT we would need
it for every other element too. Which increases the UI complexity and makes
updating much more complicated.

-m
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-11-17 15:24:26 UTC
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I just want to comment ...

1 -- its a good idea, in theory

2 -- in practice, I'd guess its more about TOC FOR PURPOSE ... what is the
end application FOR?

Wouldn't the TOC need to be different for? ...

- tweeting
- writing novels
- galleries of images
- etc ..

In other words, IS a "one stop solution" the right way here?

Just thoughts
Josiah
Post by PMario
....
Post by bimlas
- Include a default table of contents
empty.html shows the GettingStarted tiddler. It contains some basic
Would you like to have a TableOfContents similar to the one used at
tiddlywiki(dot)com?
- If the user selects yes, it will be created.
- If the user selects no, a list of tiddlers, that need to be deleted
will be shown.
Post by bimlas
-
- Show More -> Tags as a regular sidebar
It should be easy to make this setting configurable. ... BUT we would
need it for every other element too. Which increases the UI complexity and
makes updating much more complicated.
-m
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Greg Davis
2018-11-17 17:43:43 UTC
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This topic keeps coming back. For most things I create JSONs of my common
preferred staring setup. But generally the minimum is a TOC and Tobias
Beer's Markup Reference. I think those might be a good minimum. When a new
user has the TOC available they can decide how to best use it for their
needs. Or learn how to use it as their experience grows. For more
complicated things they can go to TiddlyWiki, or a downloaded copy, for
instructions.

Rather than a JSON, decided to try a simple plugin. It includes the base
TOC, Tobias' Reference, and a brief description to hopefully get a new user
started. (Trying to keep it small and simple.) It can be found at:

http://gdplugins.tiddlyspot.com/

Greg
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