Discussion:
[tw] file-backups - Request for Feedback - 1
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PMario
2018-02-06 13:02:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Folks,

Since the file-backups AddOn
<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/file-backups/> seems to
work well, for about 500 daily users, I intend to port the it to the Chrome
browser.

At the moment file-backups adds 2 icons:

pageAction ... which is shown for tiddlywiki tabs
browserAction ... which is permanently added.



I did create it that way, because I personally liked it that way and
TiddlyFox had some problems with just 1 browser icon, that changes state.


*The new problem now is*: Chrome browser only allows 1 set of actions in an
AddOn. It refuses to install the plugin. .. So I have to choose between
browser- or page-actions.

*At the moment* pageAction only toggles the "Backups enabled" state:

- Backups enabled:
- Backups disabled:


*I intend to* remove it and make the browserAction icon reflect the actual
state.
So the file-backups default icon will be:

Backups enabled: by default and
Backups disabled: ... I want to have "Backups disabled" orange or red,
since I did already loose some work that way.

Since FF UI can be adjusted, for me* it will look that way: *




There will also be a new state: Use browser fallback save mechanism.
Which is basically the same as the plugin disabled, without the need to
really disable it.

It will probably show a "grayed out" or transparent Icon, which will be
still clickable. .... I'm not sure here!



*What do you think?*Have fun!
mario
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-02-06 14:21:59 UTC
Permalink
Just my opinion, but changing the icon is a bit confusing. It's not clear
they are part of the same system. Maybe just have the diamond with blue
(enabled) and gray (disabled).

Thanks!
-- Mark
Post by PMario
Hi Folks,
Since the file-backups AddOn
<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/file-backups/> seems to
work well, for about 500 daily users, I intend to port it to the Chrome
browser.
pageAction ... which is shown for tiddlywiki tabs
browserAction ... which is permanently added.
I did create it that way, because I personally liked it and
TiddlyFox had some problems with just 1 browser icon, that changes state.
*The new problem now is*: Chrome browser only allows 1 set of actions in
an AddOn. It refuses to install the plugin. .. So I have to choose between
browser- or page-actions.
*I intend to* remove it and make the browserAction icon reflect the
actual state.
Backups enabled: by default and
Backups disabled: ... I want to have "Backups disabled" orange or red,
since I did already loose some work that way.
Since FF UI can be adjusted, for me* it will look that way: *
There will also be a new state: Use browser fallback save mechanism.
Which is basically the same as the plugin disabled, without the need to
really disable it.
It will probably show a "grayed out" or transparent Icon, which will be
still clickable. .... I'm not sure here!
*What do you think?*Have fun!
mario
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PMario
2018-02-06 14:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Just my opinion, but changing the icon is a bit confusing. It's not clear
they are part of the same system. Maybe just have the diamond with blue
(enabled) and gray (disabled).
You are right ... That's why I'm asking for feedback. May be we can come up
with better solutions.

IMO changing the color alone is not enough, if you a user has problems to
identify colors. So there has to be a visual difference too.

We only have 16 pixel, which imo caused a problem with the TiddlyFox icons.

-m
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PMario
2018-02-06 14:43:45 UTC
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....That's why I'm asking for feedback. May be we can come up with better
solutions.
Just an "idea" .... rotate the diamond ??
So we may have 4 states even 8 ;)

-m
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Birthe C
2018-02-06 20:45:22 UTC
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I like this idea, rotating the diamond. I have doubts about having the icon
slashed I am not sure it would be clearly visible on the diamond.

Birthe
Post by PMario
....That's why I'm asking for feedback. May be we can come up with better
solutions.
Just an "idea" .... rotate the diamond ??
So we may have 4 states even 8 ;)
-m
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Thomas Elmiger
2018-02-06 21:29:03 UTC
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Hi Mario,

As one or two (I have two computers) of the 500 ... here are my five cents:
I would suggest to shrink the diamond (or cat*), make it transparent (not
blue) and put a (red?) circle around it or an octagon like a stop sign.

Turning the icon might make it less recognisable.

Cheers,
Thomas

*My icons originally drawn for TiddlyFox2 are still available:
https://tid.li/tw5/hacks.html#SleepyJack.svg:SleepyJack.svg%20ReadyJack.svg%20CircleJack.svg%20AnxiousJack.svg
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-02-06 15:20:50 UTC
Permalink
How about a diamond (enabled) and a diamond with a circle and slash? The
slash is clearly recognized as a "something not working" indicator.
Post by PMario
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Just my opinion, but changing the icon is a bit confusing. It's not clear
they are part of the same system. Maybe just have the diamond with blue
(enabled) and gray (disabled).
You are right ... That's why I'm asking for feedback. May be we can come
up with better solutions.
IMO changing the color alone is not enough, if a user has problems to
identify colors. So there has to be a visual difference too.
We only have 16 pixel, which imo caused a problem with the TiddlyFox icons.
-m
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Furicle
2018-02-06 15:49:43 UTC
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Yes - a slash through it for disabled. Perhaps a dotted outline and
transparent when it's not configured or in fall back mode?
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
How about a diamond (enabled) and a diamond with a circle and slash? The
slash is clearly recognized as a "something not working" indicator.
Post by PMario
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Just my opinion, but changing the icon is a bit confusing. It's not
clear they are part of the same system. Maybe just have the diamond with
blue (enabled) and gray (disabled).
You are right ... That's why I'm asking for feedback. May be we can come
up with better solutions.
IMO changing the color alone is not enough, if a user has problems to
identify colors. So there has to be a visual difference too.
We only have 16 pixel, which imo caused a problem with the TiddlyFox icons.
-m
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whatever
2018-02-06 16:47:24 UTC
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Hi!

As I posted on dev [1], it opened a Save As dialog every time I saved, even
though backups were disabled in options.

[1] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywikidev/1eUJAApKUdk
w
Post by Furicle
Yes - a slash through it for disabled. Perhaps a dotted outline and
transparent when it's not configured or in fall back mode?
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
How about a diamond (enabled) and a diamond with a circle and slash? The
slash is clearly recognized as a "something not working" indicator.
Post by PMario
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Just my opinion, but changing the icon is a bit confusing. It's not
clear they are part of the same system. Maybe just have the diamond with
blue (enabled) and gray (disabled).
You are right ... That's why I'm asking for feedback. May be we can come
up with better solutions.
IMO changing the color alone is not enough, if a user has problems to
identify colors. So there has to be a visual difference too.
We only have 16 pixel, which imo caused a problem with the TiddlyFox icons.
-m
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-02-06 17:29:32 UTC
Permalink
It sounds like you were using both TiddlyFox and file-backups on Waterfox
56. I'm not sure file-backups is supposed to work on FF<57, but having two
backup solutions at the same time seems likely to cause problems. BJ and
PMario had to work together to come up with back-up solutions that would
not conflict.

-- Mark
Post by whatever
Hi!
As I posted on dev [1], it opened a Save As dialog every time I saved,
even though backups were disabled in options.
[1] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywikidev/1eUJAApKUdk
w
Post by Furicle
Yes - a slash through it for disabled. Perhaps a dotted outline and
transparent when it's not configured or in fall back mode?
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
How about a diamond (enabled) and a diamond with a circle and slash? The
slash is clearly recognized as a "something not working" indicator.
Post by PMario
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Just my opinion, but changing the icon is a bit confusing. It's not
clear they are part of the same system. Maybe just have the diamond with
blue (enabled) and gray (disabled).
You are right ... That's why I'm asking for feedback. May be we can
come up with better solutions.
IMO changing the color alone is not enough, if a user has problems to
identify colors. So there has to be a visual difference too.
We only have 16 pixel, which imo caused a problem with the TiddlyFox icons.
-m
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whatever
2018-02-06 19:45:45 UTC
Permalink
Hi!

Yes, I'm normally using TiddlyFox on Waterfox 56. I had the file-backups
plugin enabled, because I was testing it, but afterwards I only disabled
the backup option in the plugin. When I disabled the plugin itself, the
behavior stopped. I'll try again when Waterfox 57 comes out.

w
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
It sounds like you were using both TiddlyFox and file-backups on Waterfox
56. I'm not sure file-backups is supposed to work on FF<57, but having two
backup solutions at the same time seems likely to cause problems. BJ and
PMario had to work together to come up with back-up solutions that would
not conflict.
-- Mark
Post by whatever
Hi!
As I posted on dev [1], it opened a Save As dialog every time I saved,
even though backups were disabled in options.
[1] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywikidev/1eUJAApKUdk
w
Post by Furicle
Yes - a slash through it for disabled. Perhaps a dotted outline and
transparent when it's not configured or in fall back mode?
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
How about a diamond (enabled) and a diamond with a circle and slash?
The slash is clearly recognized as a "something not working" indicator.
Post by PMario
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Just my opinion, but changing the icon is a bit confusing. It's not
clear they are part of the same system. Maybe just have the diamond with
blue (enabled) and gray (disabled).
You are right ... That's why I'm asking for feedback. May be we can
come up with better solutions.
IMO changing the color alone is not enough, if a user has problems to
identify colors. So there has to be a visual difference too.
We only have 16 pixel, which imo caused a problem with the TiddlyFox icons.
-m
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-02-06 17:18:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by PMario
We only have 16 pixel, which imo caused a problem with the TiddlyFox icons.
It did. But *you are missing something*. The problem with the TiddlyFox
icon was that the ONLY thing that changed between states was the colour of
the globe the cat stands on. And that globe was less than half the total
height. With a colour shift that on smaller screens was hardly noticeable.
The cat always stayed black.

This is a long way of saying: I think you are worrying about what may turn
out to be a minor issue in your implementation.

I agree with Mark that its not a good idea to change icon shapes as it
implies a different function, rather than different states of one function,
which is what you want.

Fill the space available as fully as possible with a coloured icon for on.
Greyscale same icon, maybe with a slash through it, for off. Something like
that.

Best wishes
Josiah
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-02-06 17:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Ciao PMario

Further to last.

If I had visual skill at tiny icons I'd do a CAT FACE SILHOUETTE for the
icon :-) Just to keep consistent recognisable "badging". If I ever manage
it I'll let you know :-).

Best wishes
Josiah
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PMario
2018-02-06 23:40:58 UTC
Permalink
@ All,


*Thanks for taking your time!*
I did read all the post. I'll comment later, since I don't wan to interrupt
"the flow"

Just *let the brainstorming happen*!

have fun!
mario
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TonyM
2018-02-07 01:59:47 UTC
Permalink
I would think three obvious colours with the same Icon is best

The Circle with down arrow is good

Enabled Green
Disabled Red

Using the same down arrow in the Browser actions with either a red/Green
Circle but a black down arrow (or the reverse) would maintain consistency
for people to locate it.

Regards
Tony
Post by PMario
Hi Folks,
Since the file-backups AddOn
<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/file-backups/> seems to
work well, for about 500 daily users, I intend to port it to the Chrome
browser.
pageAction ... which is shown for tiddlywiki tabs
browserAction ... which is permanently added.
I did create it that way, because I personally liked it and
TiddlyFox had some problems with just 1 browser icon, that changes state.
*The new problem now is*: Chrome browser only allows 1 set of actions in
an AddOn. It refuses to install the plugin. .. So I have to choose between
browser- or page-actions.
*I intend to* remove it and make the browserAction icon reflect the
actual state.
Backups enabled: by default and
Backups disabled: ... I want to have "Backups disabled" orange or red,
since I did already loose some work that way.
Since FF UI can be adjusted, for me* it will look that way: *
There will also be a new state: Use browser fallback save mechanism.
Which is basically the same as the plugin disabled, without the need to
really disable it.
It will probably show a "grayed out" or transparent Icon, which will be
still clickable. .... I'm not sure here!
*What do you think?*Have fun!
mario
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-02-07 02:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Thinking about it, the arrow makes more sense than a diamond. It's kind of
hard to think of any natural association between diamonds and backups.

But nothing should be dependent solely on color distinctions. Something
like 10% of males are color-blind. Plus some people may be turning off
color on their devices to make them more distraction-free (news item this
week).

-- Mark
Post by TonyM
I would think three obvious colours with the same Icon is best
The Circle with down arrow is good
Enabled Green
Disabled Red
Using the same down arrow in the Browser actions with either a red/Green
Circle but a black down arrow (or the reverse) would maintain consistency
for people to locate it.
Regards
Tony
Post by PMario
Hi Folks,
Since the file-backups AddOn
<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/file-backups/> seems to
work well, for about 500 daily users, I intend to port it to the Chrome
browser.
pageAction ... which is shown for tiddlywiki tabs
browserAction ... which is permanently added.
I did create it that way, because I personally liked it and
TiddlyFox had some problems with just 1 browser icon, that changes state.
*The new problem now is*: Chrome browser only allows 1 set of actions in
an AddOn. It refuses to install the plugin. .. So I have to choose between
browser- or page-actions.
*I intend to* remove it and make the browserAction icon reflect the
actual state.
Backups enabled: by default and
Backups disabled: ... I want to have "Backups disabled" orange or
red, since I did already loose some work that way.
Since FF UI can be adjusted, for me* it will look that way: *
There will also be a new state: Use browser fallback save mechanism.
Which is basically the same as the plugin disabled, without the need to
really disable it.
It will probably show a "grayed out" or transparent Icon, which will be
still clickable. .... I'm not sure here!
*What do you think?*Have fun!
mario
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coda coder
2018-02-07 03:14:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Thinking about it, the arrow makes more sense than a diamond. It's kind of
hard to think of any natural association between diamonds and backups.
Diamond is used generally when one wants to signify quality, or an
assurance of quality. There is, I think, a semblance of quality assurance
with backups, but yes... it's bit of a stretch.
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Thomas Elmiger
2018-02-07 06:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Wikipedia: A *brilliant* is a diamond
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_(gemstone)> or other gemstone
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemstone> cut
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_cut> in a particular form with
numerous facets <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facet> so as to have
exceptional brilliance.

I would like to throw in some thoughts pro gemstone. 💎

When we were about to lose TiddlyFox, it was not a friend or a pet that we
were moaning for, it was one of the most valuable features of an
application: saving without hassles.

TW is a tool for collecting, editing and rearranging information. – And it
saves a copy of itself when you click a checkmark or a downwards pointing
arrow in a circle. So these symbols are taken.

What is so brilliant (pun intended) about Mario’s solution in my everyday
is:
* it saves automatically in the background
* if you want, it keeps as many backups as you tell it to

So the gem is a great symbol for this tool:
* it is the most valuable addition to TW
* it hardens your process
* it keeps as many facets of your content as you like
* not used elswhere in TW

Colour and shape work in light and dark themes for me. I have no other
browser plugins that use something similar.

I would even recommend to reinforce the branding by renaming the plugin to
something like
* diamond save
* brilliant backups & save

Just my glittering thoughts ;–)

Have a beautiful day!
Thomas
Post by coda coder
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Thinking about it, the arrow makes more sense than a diamond. It's kind
of hard to think of any natural association between diamonds and backups.
Diamond is used generally when one wants to signify quality, or an
assurance of quality. There is, I think, a semblance of quality assurance
with backups, but yes... it's bit of a stretch.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-02-07 20:26:23 UTC
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The Thomas route

Its interesting. The argument that there is some kinda archetypal meaning
in the diamond I think is rubbish, unless you selling diamonds.

Frankly I think you could have a CABBAGE and it would work just as well :-).

This is just a fun poke on not getting too serious.

I quite like the idea of a cat face for continuity on badging.

Beyond that I don't think it matters much so long as it indicates state
change in a consistent way. Let it be diamond if it does that.

In fun, best wishes
Josiah
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-02-07 21:02:39 UTC
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Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Frankly I think you could have a CABBAGE and it would work just as well :-).
Oh no! That reminds me of my worst nightmare!

-- Mark
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-02-07 21:18:56 UTC
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Groups are not equipped to deal with individual hangups. I can recommend a
therapist.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Frankly I think you could have a CABBAGE and it would work just as well :-).
Oh no! That reminds me of my worst nightmare!
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TonyM
2018-02-07 03:46:18 UTC
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Mark,

So True, Are there colors or contrasts that will work

I imaging the negative may work

White Circle White Arrow (background dark green)
The negative with the text (dark red)

The color blind will see negative and positive versions

Perhaps even remove the arrow from the Negative case

Tony
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Thinking about it, the arrow makes more sense than a diamond. It's kind of
hard to think of any natural association between diamonds and backups.
But nothing should be dependent solely on color distinctions. Something
like 10% of males are color-blind. Plus some people may be turning off
color on their devices to make them more distraction-free (news item this
week).
-- Mark
Post by TonyM
I would think three obvious colours with the same Icon is best
The Circle with down arrow is good
Enabled Green
Disabled Red
Using the same down arrow in the Browser actions with either a red/Green
Circle but a black down arrow (or the reverse) would maintain consistency
for people to locate it.
Regards
Tony
Post by PMario
Hi Folks,
Since the file-backups AddOn
<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/file-backups/> seems to
work well, for about 500 daily users, I intend to port it to the Chrome
browser.
pageAction ... which is shown for tiddlywiki tabs
browserAction ... which is permanently added.
I did create it that way, because I personally liked it and
TiddlyFox had some problems with just 1 browser icon, that changes state.
*The new problem now is*: Chrome browser only allows 1 set of actions
in an AddOn. It refuses to install the plugin. .. So I have to choose
between browser- or page-actions.
*I intend to* remove it and make the browserAction icon reflect the
actual state.
Backups enabled: by default and
Backups disabled: ... I want to have "Backups disabled" orange or
red, since I did already loose some work that way.
Since FF UI can be adjusted, for me* it will look that way: *
There will also be a new state: Use browser fallback save mechanism.
Which is basically the same as the plugin disabled, without the need to
really disable it.
It will probably show a "grayed out" or transparent Icon, which will be
still clickable. .... I'm not sure here!
*What do you think?*Have fun!
mario
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