Discussion:
[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles
(too old to reply)
Brady77
2018-04-17 11:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

any solution to the problem? I don't believe that Felix and me are the only
TiddlyWiki users who are struggling with renaming the tiddlers (or tags).
Let's go to the roots of TiddlyWiki that positions as a *system of small
pieces of related information*. How does is play with such a basic
operation called "change tiddler title" by breaking all references? There
is probably something I have missed at the beginning but it seems to me
like building a dam on a river from sugar cubes: you have a solid structure
just until you fill it with water...

Is it a technical problem? Or a too much work to change the system? Or a
backward compatibility problem? A combination of? Should we create a plan
to untangle it?
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PMario
2018-04-17 12:41:14 UTC
Permalink
This is a really old topic. .. TW has changed quite a bit ...
Post by Brady77
Hi,
any solution to the problem?
partially. .. I think it can be solved with plugins now. ... My unilink
plugin <https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/uni-link/>may be an option.
Post by Brady77
I don't believe that Felix and me are the only TiddlyWiki users who are
struggling with renaming the tiddlers (or tags).
TiddlyWiki contains a new mechanism now, that "batch renames" all existing
tags, if you rename a tiddler title. .. So if you change a tag-tiddler the
core will do the batch processing.

This doesn't change links like: [[tag-name-here]] in tiddler text. ... But
if you rename your tiddlers a lot you will have a lot of
[[prettylinks|tag-name-tiddler]] anyway. Otherwise your text will be hard
to read. ... The alias-plugin, which is part of uni-link will help your
here. -> No renaming needed!
Post by Brady77
Let's go to the roots of TiddlyWiki that positions as a *system of small
pieces of related information*. How does is play with such a basic
operation called "change tiddler title" by breaking all references? There
is probably something I have missed at the beginning but it seems to me
like building a dam on a river from sugar cubes: you have a solid structure
just until you fill it with water...
There are many users, where the existing mechanism works well, for a really
long time. ...

I know, that naming tiddlers is hard! .. That's why I use uni-link ;) and a
theme, that doesn't use tiddler titles as a heading. see:
https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/slant-01/ My tiddler names look like:
this-is-a-tiddler-name, which I don't change anymore. ...

I use "real headings" at the tiddler body, which allows me to use the
tiddler title as an "index" and I can change the heading as often as I
want. "caption" and "subtitle" are very handy here.

This works well with the above mentioned plugins, which don't break TWs,
that don't use the plugins, if you copy your texts. (but the functionality
will be different!)
Post by Brady77
Is it a technical problem?
Partially yes. The whole core javascript code and UI uses the tiddler title
as a heading. .... because it's easy for new users.
Post by Brady77
Or a too much work to change the system?
Yes. ... If you really want to have it in a different way, without
regressions in functionality, you better start from scratch. It would be
much less work.
Post by Brady77
Or a backward compatibility problem?
A combination of?
Yes. ...
Post by Brady77
Should we create a plan to untangle it?
IMO it's a plugin- and not a core-problem.

have fun!
mario
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Brady77
2018-04-17 14:28:23 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by PMario
Post by Brady77
any solution to the problem?
partially. .. I think it can be solved with plugins now. ... My unilink
plugin <https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/uni-link/>may be an option.
Please can you elaborate on "partially"? What areas of the TiddlyWiki are
not covered by using your Unilink plugin?
Post by PMario
Post by Brady77
I don't believe that Felix and me are the only TiddlyWiki users who are
struggling with renaming the tiddlers (or tags).
TiddlyWiki contains a new mechanism now, that "batch renames" all existing
tags, if you rename a tiddler title. .. So if you change a tag-tiddler the
core will do the batch processing.
This doesn't change links like: [[tag-name-here]] in tiddler text. ... But
if you rename your tiddlers a lot you will have a lot of
[[prettylinks|tag-name-tiddler]] anyway. Otherwise your text will be hard
to read. ... The alias-plugin, which is part of uni-link will help your
here. -> No renaming needed!
I'm confused here. What is the difference in renaming the tiddler or the
tag? Tag is just a label, isn't is? So changing it should be super simple =
there are no links...
Post by PMario
Post by Brady77
Let's go to the roots of TiddlyWiki that positions as a *system of small
pieces of related information*. How does is play with such a basic
operation called "change tiddler title" by breaking all references? There
is probably something I have missed at the beginning but it seems to me
like building a dam on a river from sugar cubes: you have a solid structure
just until you fill it with water...
There are many users, where the existing mechanism works well, for a
really long time. ...
I know, that naming tiddlers is hard! .. That's why I use uni-link ;) and
https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/slant-01/ My tiddler names look
like: this-is-a-tiddler-name, which I don't change anymore. ...
I use "real headings" at the tiddler body, which allows me to use the
tiddler title as an "index" and I can change the heading as often as I
want. "caption" and "subtitle" are very handy here.
This works well with the above mentioned plugins, which don't break TWs,
that don't use the plugins, if you copy your texts. (but the functionality
will be different!)
So you implemented something what Jeremy suggested in this thread above:
"...users should be able to use GUIDs for tiddler titles if it suits their
use case. The missing piece is a way of linking to a tiddler by it's
GUID/title, but having a specified field displayed as the text of the
link.". This is exact opposite to what Felix'es suggests by using "IDs" for
GUIDs.
Post by PMario
Post by Brady77
Is it a technical problem?
Partially yes. The whole core javascript code and UI uses the tiddler
title as a heading. .... because it's easy for new users.
Well, I am new to TiddlyWiki. After few edits to my Wiki I ended with an
error: "Missing tiddler "XYZ" – click to create". I cannot agree that it is
something what makes new users life easier. I thought I have a centrally
managed system in one HTML file that encourages me to create many tiddlers
to be connected by links. What I have now is a copy of world wide web
system in my PC: a mess of 404 error links where only Google robots have
the power to get some relevant data out of it. TiddlyWiki = big data?
Post by PMario
Post by Brady77
Or a too much work to change the system?
Yes. ... If you really want to have it in a different way, without
regressions in functionality, you better start from scratch. It would be
much less work.
Post by Brady77
Or a backward compatibility problem?
A combination of?
Yes. ...
Post by Brady77
Should we create a plan to untangle it?
IMO it's a plugin- and not a core-problem.
This is a core problem for sure. Tiddler should be an object with an
internal ID. Just like in any document database (or NoSQL database). You
can add fields to it with values but the object doesn't change it's
identity by changing a field value.
Post by PMario
have fun!
mario
Thanks Mario for your informative response.
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PMario
2018-04-20 14:49:13 UTC
Permalink
......
Post by PMario
I use "real headings" at the tiddler body, which allows me to use the
tiddler title as an "index" and I can change the heading as often as I
want. "caption" and "subtitle" are very handy here.
This works well with the above mentioned plugins, which don't break TWs,
that don't use the plugins, if you copy your texts. (but the functionality
will be different!)
"...users should be able to use GUIDs for tiddler titles if it suits their
use case. The missing piece is a way of linking to a tiddler by it's
GUID/title, but having a specified field displayed as the text of the
link.".
I did implement it, because I thought in "Globally changing internal links
to display caption text if possible
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/Z7dRU3HrzSs>?" Mark S.
came up with a brilliant Idea, that used the wrong field. ...
and some other threads, pushed me to add the alias-functions to uni-link,
to cover it in one plugin. ..
This is exact opposite to what Felix'es suggests by using "IDs" for GUIDs.
May be.

-m
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Jed Carty
2018-04-17 14:40:52 UTC
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A tiddler is an object with an internal id, it is the title field. You can
add fields to it without changing the identity of the tiddler. Once you
change the title of the tiddler you are changing the internal id.

This same argument has been made many times and there has never been a
solution presented that doesn't have the same problems as using a title.
You need to have a unique identifier on each tiddler, to link to a tiddler
you need this id. Regardless of how you twist things around this id is
equivalent to the title. I think that in most cases it is much more
convenient to have this id be a human readable one.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-04-17 14:55:34 UTC
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I totally agree with Jed.

IMO, if normal titling is becoming an issue to (ID) organise what you need,
then a first step is to step back and consider the design architecture of
what you wanting to do. The problem with other work-arounds is it adds
complications and overheads.

FWIW, to deal with this issue I adopted two different approaches ...

(1) where I need a clear ID I use the title field purely as the
data-reference (e.g. Title-1_sub-7 etc) and the caption field for what is
displayed. That is easy & reliable.

(2) where I want to use the title field only, that is displayed, I think
through a schema of naming that is nor overly laborious. Its not always
optimal--but mostly it is.

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Jed Carty
This same argument has been made many times and there has never been a
solution presented that doesn't have the same problems as using a title.
You need to have a unique identifier on each tiddler, to link to a tiddler
you need this id. Regardless of how you twist things around this id is
equivalent to the title. I think that in most cases it is much more
convenient to have this id be a human readable one.
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Brady77
2018-04-17 15:28:44 UTC
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Hi Josiah,

I appreciate your willingness to help. Let's say I will generate some
unique ID for tiddler title. Next I use the "caption" field to as a real
tiddler title. Could you tell me what files to change so I can use it as
you suggest? I'm afraid that current tiddler title is hardcoded in many
places. I'm also awaiting Mario's reply regarding the "partial" solution by
using the "caption" field.

Petr
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-17 16:07:34 UTC
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If you're using the uni-link plugin, it will automatically change how your
links are rendered to match either the caption or the subtitle of the
linked tiddler. You can then leave the tiddler alone, never renaming it but
only changing "caption" or "subtitle" if you want to change how it looks
when linked.

Basically, it allows you to use the title as a true immutable ID, and the
caption or subtitle as the title. But it enables better performance -- it
doesn't guarantee it. It's a partial solution because it doesn't fix
existing broken links. You will have to find and fix them. There's also
nothing to prevent you from forgetting and changing a tiddler title. The
title of the tiddler that appears will be different than the title someone
clicked on. Perhaps the ViewTemplate could be modified to also use the
caption or subtitle, reducing confusion.

-- Mark
Post by Brady77
Hi Josiah,
I appreciate your willingness to help. Let's say I will generate some
unique ID for tiddler title. Next I use the "caption" field to as a real
tiddler title. Could you tell me what files to change so I can use it as
you suggest? I'm afraid that current tiddler title is hardcoded in many
places. I'm also awaiting Mario's reply regarding the "partial" solution by
using the "caption" field.
Petr
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Brady77
2018-04-17 16:37:00 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mark,


If you're using the uni-link plugin, it will automatically change how your
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
links are rendered to match either the caption or the subtitle of the
linked tiddler. You can then leave the tiddler alone, never renaming it but
only changing "caption" or "subtitle" if you want to change how it looks
when linked.
This is great as it partially solves the problem. I'll give the plugin a
try a will let you know it works for me.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Basically, it allows you to use the title as a true immutable ID, and the
caption or subtitle as the title.
How is this ID generated by the uni-link plugin? Or should I provide one by
hand (from https://www.uuidgenerator.net/ for example?) Or use a system
that you suggested above (<date> <topic> [<user>])?
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
It's a partial solution because it doesn't fix existing broken links. You
will have to find and fix them.
No big deal with my notes so far cause I just started to use TiddlyWiki.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
There's also nothing to prevent you from forgetting and changing a tiddler
title. The title of the tiddler that appears will be different than the
title someone clicked on. Perhaps the ViewTemplate could be modified to
also use the caption or subtitle, reducing confusion.
I hope for some guide to help me with this. I wish to share the Wiki with
other users and cannot imagine to explain everyone that this first editable
field is NO-NO editable field that breaks all.

Everyone so far admitted that the tiddler should be identified by an
*immutable* ID (call it how you want) to keep Wiki relationships
operational. Why not to change the system so it is the default when
starting a new Tiddlywiki? We should seriously discuss all the PROS and
CONS.

Thank you, too.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
-- Mark
Post by Brady77
Hi Josiah,
I appreciate your willingness to help. Let's say I will generate some
unique ID for tiddler title. Next I use the "caption" field to as a real
tiddler title. Could you tell me what files to change so I can use it as
you suggest? I'm afraid that current tiddler title is hardcoded in many
places. I'm also awaiting Mario's reply regarding the "partial" solution by
using the "caption" field.
Petr
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-17 17:45:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brady77
How is this ID generated by the uni-link plugin? Or should I provide one
by hand (from https://www.uuidgenerator.net/ for example?) Or use a
system that you suggested above (<date> <topic> [<user>])?
I would use the human-readable version I suggested. Using a UUID generator
would be overkill at this point. Currently there's a functional upper limit
to the number of tiddlers, so you're not going to use it as a 100000
tiddler database
Post by Brady77
I hope for some guide to help me with this. I wish to share the Wiki with
other users and cannot imagine to explain everyone that this first editable
field is NO-NO editable field that breaks all.
It's only a NO-NO if you plan to link to it. If you're just going to
reference it by tags or fields like Jed suggests, then there's no problem.
So it depends a lot on your use-case.

-- Mark
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Miroslav Kalous
2018-04-20 18:49:11 UTC
Permalink
A little detour from the title/GUID debate:

I was wondering, and perhaps I'm not the only one, if someone has already
tried to *use uni-link together with modification that displays caption of
a tiddler as its name *(effectively using caption as title-shown but not
changing title-proper)? I mean what Mark S. hinted upon: "Perhaps the
ViewTemplate could be modified to also use the caption or subtitle,
reducing confusion."

I think uni-link is a big help with link breakage issue. But I'd also like
to view or edit a tiddler while seeing its new title, meaning caption.
Otherwise I am not sure uni-link would trump the
create-newly-titled-tiddler-and-translude-its-previous-version-into-it or
the clone-existing-tiddler-change-its-name-and-link-its-older-version-to-it
workarounds for me.

Though I don't have the least idea if such a modification of the tiddler's
name behaviour is possible or how difficult it would be to make it. Thanks
for any suggestions.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
If you're using the uni-link plugin, it will automatically change how your
links are rendered to match either the caption or the subtitle of the
linked tiddler. You can then leave the tiddler alone, never renaming it but
only changing "caption" or "subtitle" if you want to change how it looks
when linked.
Basically, it allows you to use the title as a true immutable ID, and the
caption or subtitle as the title. But it enables better performance -- it
doesn't guarantee it. It's a partial solution because it doesn't fix
existing broken links. You will have to find and fix them. There's also
nothing to prevent you from forgetting and changing a tiddler title. The
title of the tiddler that appears will be different than the title someone
clicked on. Perhaps the ViewTemplate could be modified to also use the
caption or subtitle, reducing confusion.
-- Mark
Post by Brady77
Hi Josiah,
I appreciate your willingness to help. Let's say I will generate some
unique ID for tiddler title. Next I use the "caption" field to as a real
tiddler title. Could you tell me what files to change so I can use it as
you suggest? I'm afraid that current tiddler title is hardcoded in many
places. I'm also awaiting Mario's reply regarding the "partial" solution by
using the "caption" field.
Petr
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-21 04:06:28 UTC
Permalink
The first half of that task would be to change the view templates. The view
templates themselves are made up of tiddlers. If you type
$:/tags/ViewTemplate under the shadow tab of the advanced search you will
see the various component tiddlers listed.

There are various approaches, but this is a quick-and-dirty approach that
may be good enough for most uses.

Click on and then edit $:/core/ui/ViewTemplate/subtitle
<https://tiddlywiki.com/#%24%3A%2Fcore%2Fui%2FViewTemplate%2Fsubtitle> .

Although this tiddler is called 'subtitle', it doesn't display a subtitle,
or any title. We will make the "subtitle" tiddler display the title field.
Just put

| <$view field="title"/>

to the left of the the date view field. This will add the title to the
tiddler subtitle line, but in subdued gray text.

Now click on (from the advanced search again) $:/core/ui/ViewTemplate/title
and open it for editing.

Change down below where it says:

<$view field="title"/>

to

<$view field="subtitle"><$view field="title"/></$view

What this does is create a cascade. If "subtitle" is available, it will
display subtitle. Otherwise it will display the title field as a fall back.

Notice that I'm using "subtitle" and not "caption". The thing is, the
caption field should always be kept short so that it can be used on menus.
The subtitle can be much longer if you want.

Save and close the tiddlers. Now whenever you add a "subtitle" field to a
tiddler and populate it, the contents of that field should appear as the
main tiddler title.

Oh, and as always, be sure to make a backup of your TW file before trying
any of this.

Maybe by tomorrow someone else will have beat me to the next task --
changing the edit templates ;-)

-- Mark
Post by Miroslav Kalous
I was wondering, and perhaps I'm not the only one, if someone has already
tried to *use uni-link together with modification that displays caption
of a tiddler as its name *(effectively using caption as title-shown but
not changing title-proper)? I mean what Mark S. hinted upon: "Perhaps the
ViewTemplate could be modified to also use the caption or subtitle,
reducing confusion."
I think uni-link is a big help with link breakage issue. But I'd also like
to view or edit a tiddler while seeing its new title, meaning caption.
Otherwise I am not sure uni-link would trump the
create-newly-titled-tiddler-and-translude-its-previous-version-into-it or
the clone-existing-tiddler-change-its-name-and-link-its-older-version-to-it
workarounds for me.
Though I don't have the least idea if such a modification of the tiddler's
name behaviour is possible or how difficult it would be to make it. Thanks
for any suggestions.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
If you're using the uni-link plugin, it will automatically change how
your links are rendered to match either the caption or the subtitle of the
linked tiddler. You can then leave the tiddler alone, never renaming it but
only changing "caption" or "subtitle" if you want to change how it looks
when linked.
Basically, it allows you to use the title as a true immutable ID, and the
caption or subtitle as the title. But it enables better performance -- it
doesn't guarantee it. It's a partial solution because it doesn't fix
existing broken links. You will have to find and fix them. There's also
nothing to prevent you from forgetting and changing a tiddler title. The
title of the tiddler that appears will be different than the title someone
clicked on. Perhaps the ViewTemplate could be modified to also use the
caption or subtitle, reducing confusion.
-- Mark
Post by Brady77
Hi Josiah,
I appreciate your willingness to help. Let's say I will generate some
unique ID for tiddler title. Next I use the "caption" field to as a real
tiddler title. Could you tell me what files to change so I can use it as
you suggest? I'm afraid that current tiddler title is hardcoded in many
places. I'm also awaiting Mario's reply regarding the "partial" solution by
using the "caption" field.
Petr
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-21 19:50:30 UTC
Permalink
Part Deux,

To make things easier, type $:/tags/EditTemplate into the "shadows" tab of
the advanced search.

Click on

$:/core/ui/EditTemplate/title

and clone it. Rename the clone as


$:/core/ui/EditTemplate/subtitle

and replace it's contents with:


<$edit-text field="subtitle" class="tc-titlebar tc-edit-texteditor"
focus="true" placeholder="Subtitle Editor"/>


Save the tiddler. This creates a special item for editing the subtitle and
gives it a placeholder value. We want to make it prominent at the top. From
the advanced search click on


$:/tags/EditTemplate


Go down to the "list" field. Copy and paste the $:/core/ui/EditTemplate/title
in place. Then change the first $:/core/ui/EditTemplate/title to
$:/core/ui/EditTemplate/subtitle.


Save the tiddler.


Open the $:/core/ui/EditTemplate/title tiddler. From the first widget,
inside the "class" attribute, delete the "tc-titlebar" class. This will
reduce the size of the title field (which you may still need to edit)
without eliminating it.


The same caveats about backing up previously mentioned still apply, of
course.


One last change you might want to make. You might want to open tiddler


$:/language/DefaultNewTiddlerTitle


And change the default text to something that reflects, perhaps, your name
and the contents of your tiddlywiki. Why? Because you may want to drag and
drop your tiddlers into other TW's and there will be fewer clashes if your
default name wasn't "New Tiddler", "New Tiddler 1", etc.



HTH

-- Mark
Post by Miroslav Kalous
I was wondering, and perhaps I'm not the only one, if someone has already
tried to *use uni-link together with modification that displays caption
of a tiddler as its name *(effectively using caption as title-shown but
not changing title-proper)? I mean what Mark S. hinted upon: "Perhaps the
ViewTemplate could be modified to also use the caption or subtitle,
reducing confusion."
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Kalmir
2018-04-22 10:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Mark S.,

thanks a lot, works like a charm!
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Part Deux,
To make things easier, type $:/tags/EditTemplate into the "shadows" tab of
the advanced search.
Click on
$:/core/ui/EditTemplate/title
and clone it. Rename the clone as
$:/core/ui/EditTemplate/subtitle
<$edit-text field="subtitle" class="tc-titlebar tc-edit-texteditor"
focus="true" placeholder="Subtitle Editor"/>
Save the tiddler. This creates a special item for editing the subtitle and
gives it a placeholder value. We want to make it prominent at the top. From
the advanced search click on
$:/tags/EditTemplate
Go down to the "list" field. Copy and paste the $:/core/ui/EditTemplate/title
in place. Then change the first $:/core/ui/EditTemplate/title to
$:/core/ui/EditTemplate/subtitle.
Save the tiddler.
Open the $:/core/ui/EditTemplate/title tiddler. From the first widget,
inside the "class" attribute, delete the "tc-titlebar" class. This will
reduce the size of the title field (which you may still need to edit)
without eliminating it.
The same caveats about backing up previously mentioned still apply, of
course.
One last change you might want to make. You might want to open tiddler
$:/language/DefaultNewTiddlerTitle
And change the default text to something that reflects, perhaps, your name
and the contents of your tiddlywiki. Why? Because you may want to drag and
drop your tiddlers into other TW's and there will be fewer clashes if your
default name wasn't "New Tiddler", "New Tiddler 1", etc.
HTH
-- Mark
Post by Miroslav Kalous
I was wondering, and perhaps I'm not the only one, if someone has already
tried to *use uni-link together with modification that displays caption
of a tiddler as its name *(effectively using caption as title-shown but
not changing title-proper)? I mean what Mark S. hinted upon: "Perhaps the
ViewTemplate could be modified to also use the caption or subtitle,
reducing confusion."
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-04-17 16:26:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brady77
I appreciate your willingness to help.
Mark S. just wrote a good reply that I think sums up a practical way
forward for your situation (as far as I understand it). PMario's uni-link
plugin adds a small overhead on performance. But its good for situations
like yours. I mean, you don't want to backtrack now to a new architectural
design do you?

But I do think Jed's point remains true and that some of the issue could be
avoided by understanding the architecture of ID's in TW before starting.
BUT which you could NOT do because you didn't yet know enough. It is a sort
of puzzle. But I think it comes out okay in the end.

Josiah
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Brady77
2018-04-17 16:59:45 UTC
Permalink
Josiah wrote:

I mean, you don't want to backtrack now to a new architectural design do
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
you?
...whatever that sorts this problem I take it
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
But I do think Jed's point remains true and that some of the issue could
be avoided by understanding the architecture of ID's in TW before starting.
BUT which you could NOT do because you didn't yet know enough. It is a sort
of puzzle. But I think it comes out okay in the end.
This is what I wanted to express at the beginning with the analogy to the
dam on the river. I started to build the Wiki as my note-taking system and
it broke in a way that I wasn't able to fix it. If you change the title
once how can you recall it's title a few days later? And I changed many
titles many times. What I ended with was a mess. Since this is the core
functionality (linking tiddlers together) I'm still convinced that this is
a major problem of the system core (or design if you want).
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-04-17 18:17:02 UTC
Permalink
... some of the issue could be avoided by understanding the architecture
of ID's in TW before starting. BUT which you could NOT do because you
didn't yet know enough. It is a sort of puzzle ...
This is what I wanted to express at the beginning with the analogy to the
dam on the river.
I hear you.

..I started to build the Wiki as my note-taking system and it broke in a
way that I wasn't able to fix it... I changed many titles many times. What
I ended with was a mess.
Right. You can end up with a mid-town mess. That is neither fish nor fowl.

... Since this is the core functionality (linking tiddlers together) I'm
still convinced that this is a major problem of the system core ...
I agree it is very confusing.

Part of the issue is the idea of creating a Tiddler gets easily
conceptually confused with creating a data record. This is something I have
written at length about--that TiddlyWiki is NOT a "card-index"--though you
can make it look like one. Usually when you create a record in software it
creates a unique protected ID for a new record separate from whatever its
user fillable fields add. Not so with Tiddlers. The "title" IS the ID. On
the one hand its flexibly lightweight. On the other hand it adds
complications. Especially if you need extensive inter-linking and need to
change titling as you go along.

As far as I understand it, within the current basic architecture,
fundamentally changing that behaviour is not possible. So its more about
accepting it or finding ways round it.

Best wishes
Josiah
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Brady77
2018-04-18 10:31:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Part of the issue is the idea of creating a Tiddler gets easily
conceptually confused with creating a data record. This is something I have
written at length about--that TiddlyWiki is NOT a "card-index"--though you
can make it look like one.
Well, Josiah, I wasn't the one who came with the idea of creating a
TiddlyWiki. Probably the best here would be asking Jeremy Ruston what was
his initial vision and the intended usage of tiddlers and other basic
building blocks. From your responses I feel I'm crossing some borders of
fair-play when questioning basic functionality of the system. I really
don't want to point at some *dysfunction *of the system that arises
completely from *my own misuse of TiddlyWiki*. I'm well aware how much
effort and time you spend to have a perfect system.

Usually when you create a record in software it creates a unique protected
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
ID for a new record separate from whatever its user fillable fields add.
This is exactly the behavior that I expected from TiddlyWiki. Let's have a
look at the Airtable <http://www.airtable.com/> app for instance that I use
a lot for tabular data: Whenever you create a new record (a row in a table)
it gets an internal ID that you don't see and cannot access for
editing. You can even create an empty row in a table (that is perfectly
correct) and then create relationships from other tables just by pointing
to the row. At the same time each table has a "key" column that is used to
simplify the linking of records, searching or filtering. It is a fully
functional structure to be modified to my needs. If you overwrite the value
in the "key" cell than all the linked records in other tables are
automatically updated as well.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Not so with Tiddlers. The "title" IS the ID. On the one hand its flexibly
lightweight. On the other hand it adds complications. Especially if you
need extensive inter-linking and need to change titling as you go along. As
far as I understand it, within the current basic architecture,
fundamentally changing that behaviour is not possible. So its more about
accepting it or finding ways round it.
I see. Maybe some quick analysis by the system architect will help to
express

- the amount of work to bring this flexibility
- the consequences on your plugins etc.

Thanks again for spending your time and the patience you have with me,
Josiah (and others as well).

Petr
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Jeremy Ruston
2018-04-18 10:48:19 UTC
Permalink
Hi Brady

To clarify my earlier postings, my own view is that TiddlyWiki’s design in the area of titles, IDs etc. is correct but incomplete.

Since the main thread we’ve added automated relinking of tags and lists, but the big component that is still missing is a decent search and replace operation that is syntactically aware; it can reliably find and replace all the references to a tiddler (without being confused by plain text references to the same text). Almost everything else that one might to change is within the parts of TiddlyWiki’s UI that are expressed in wikitext.

In my own usage of TiddlyWiki I use a variety of techniques depending on the situation. One technique that is useful when working with links embedded in narrative text (as opposed to auto-generated links), is to indirect through a field: put the target of a link in a field (eg, “link-0”, “link-1”, “link-2" etc,) and then refer to them via a macro (eg, “<<link 43 ‘The original document’>>”).

Best wishes

Jeremy.
Part of the issue is the idea of creating a Tiddler gets easily conceptually confused with creating a data record. This is something I have written at length about--that TiddlyWiki is NOT a "card-index"--though you can make it look like one.
Well, Josiah, I wasn't the one who came with the idea of creating a TiddlyWiki. Probably the best here would be asking Jeremy Ruston what was his initial vision and the intended usage of tiddlers and other basic building blocks. From your responses I feel I'm crossing some borders of fair-play when questioning basic functionality of the system. I really don't want to point at some dysfunction of the system that arises completely from my own misuse of TiddlyWiki. I'm well aware how much effort and time you spend to have a perfect system.
Usually when you create a record in software it creates a unique protected ID for a new record separate from whatever its user fillable fields add.
This is exactly the behavior that I expected from TiddlyWiki. Let's have a look at the Airtable <http://www.airtable.com/> app for instance that I use a lot for tabular data: Whenever you create a new record (a row in a table) it gets an internal ID that you don't see and cannot access for editing. You can even create an empty row in a table (that is perfectly correct) and then create relationships from other tables just by pointing to the row. At the same time each table has a "key" column that is used to simplify the linking of records, searching or filtering. It is a fully functional structure to be modified to my needs. If you overwrite the value in the "key" cell than all the linked records in other tables are automatically updated as well.
Not so with Tiddlers. The "title" IS the ID. On the one hand its flexibly lightweight. On the other hand it adds complications. Especially if you need extensive inter-linking and need to change titling as you go along. As far as I understand it, within the current basic architecture, fundamentally changing that behaviour is not possible. So its more about accepting it or finding ways round it.
I see. Maybe some quick analysis by the system architect will help to express
the amount of work to bring this flexibility
the consequences on your plugins etc.
Thanks again for spending your time and the patience you have with me, Josiah (and others as well).
Petr
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Miroslav Kalous
2018-04-18 11:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Jeremy, would you mind elaborating a bit further on the indirecting
workaround? From your short description I don't really understand how this
should work and be used (I am sorry my knowledge of TW is still limited).
Do you mean creating an arbitrary new field, i.e. named "link", and filling
in some number as its value? By "refer to them via a macro" you mean using
the macro in a place where a normal link with square brackets would
normally be? What if I change later the title ("The original document").

Moreover,

since the issue of Link Breakage is a perennial one, what about *describing
existing workarounds and plugins on one page at tiddlywiki.com*? It is
certainly an issue that deters some people from using TW (e.g. in
note-taking/Zettelkasten community). I am willing to put this page together
- but I don't get a lot of these workarounds yet. I can still prepare a
draft if somebody's gonna revise and finish and publish it.
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Hi Brady
To clarify my earlier postings, my own view is that TiddlyWiki’s design in
the area of titles, IDs etc. is correct but incomplete.
Since the main thread we’ve added automated relinking of tags and lists,
but the big component that is still missing is a decent search and replace
operation that is syntactically aware; it can reliably find and replace all
the references to a tiddler (without being confused by plain text
references to the same text). Almost everything else that one might to
change is within the parts of TiddlyWiki’s UI that are expressed in
wikitext.
In my own usage of TiddlyWiki I use a variety of techniques depending on
the situation. One technique that is useful when working with links
embedded in narrative text (as opposed to auto-generated links), is to
indirect through a field: put the target of a link in a field (eg,
“link-0”, “link-1”, “link-2" etc,) and then refer to them via a macro (eg,
“<<link 43 ‘The original document’>>”).
Best wishes
Jeremy.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Part of the issue is the idea of creating a Tiddler gets easily
conceptually confused with creating a data record. This is something I have
written at length about--that TiddlyWiki is NOT a "card-index"--though you
can make it look like one.
Well, Josiah, I wasn't the one who came with the idea of creating a
TiddlyWiki. Probably the best here would be asking Jeremy Ruston what was
his initial vision and the intended usage of tiddlers and other basic
building blocks. From your responses I feel I'm crossing some borders of
fair-play when questioning basic functionality of the system. I really
don't want to point at some *dysfunction *of the system that arises
completely from *my own misuse of TiddlyWiki*. I'm well aware how much
effort and time you spend to have a perfect system.
Usually when you create a record in software it creates a unique protected
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
ID for a new record separate from whatever its user fillable fields add.
This is exactly the behavior that I expected from TiddlyWiki. Let's have a
look at the Airtable <http://www.airtable.com/> app for instance that I
use a lot for tabular data: Whenever you create a new record (a row in a
table) it gets an internal ID that you don't see and cannot access for
editing. You can even create an empty row in a table (that is perfectly
correct) and then create relationships from other tables just by pointing
to the row. At the same time each table has a "key" column that is used to
simplify the linking of records, searching or filtering. It is a fully
functional structure to be modified to my needs. If you overwrite the value
in the "key" cell than all the linked records in other tables are
automatically updated as well.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Not so with Tiddlers. The "title" IS the ID. On the one hand its flexibly
lightweight. On the other hand it adds complications. Especially if you
need extensive inter-linking and need to change titling as you go along. As
far as I understand it, within the current basic architecture,
fundamentally changing that behaviour is not possible. So its more about
accepting it or finding ways round it.
I see. Maybe some quick analysis by the system architect will help to express
- the amount of work to bring this flexibility
- the consequences on your plugins etc.
Thanks again for spending your time and the patience you have with me,
Josiah (and others as well).
Petr
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Jeremy Ruston
2018-04-18 14:41:37 UTC
Permalink
Hi Miroslav
Jeremy, would you mind elaborating a bit further on the indirecting workaround? From your short description I don't really understand how this should work and be used (I am sorry my knowledge of TW is still limited). Do you mean creating an arbitrary new field, i.e. named "link", and filling in some number as its value? By "refer to them via a macro" you mean using the macro in a place where a normal link with square brackets would normally be? What if I change later the title ("The original document”).
Sorry for being cryptic. The idea is that:

* Links from one tiddler to another are represented as fields on the “from” tiddler whose name starts with “link-“ followed by a unique index, with the value of the field being the title of the target tiddler
* Links within the narrative text of the “from” tiddler are written via a macro that extracts the link target given the link index number, something along the line of:

\define link(number,text)
<$link to={{!!link-$number$}}>$text$</$link>
\end

With this arrangement, one avoids having literal tiddler links within the text, and can instead manipulate the link fields very easily.
since the issue of Link Breakage is a perennial one, what about describing existing workarounds and plugins on one page at tiddlywiki.com? It is certainly an issue that deters some people from using TW (e.g. in note-taking/Zettelkasten community). I am willing to put this page together - but I don't get a lot of these workarounds yet. I can still prepare a draft if somebody's gonna revise and finish and publish it.
The docs on tiddlywiki.com could certainly be improved, and we’d welcome contributions. I’m also open to improvements that make it easier to use both approaches:

* using the title field as a GUID and the caption field as the human readable title
* using search and replace to relink references to renamed titles

Best wishes

Jeremy.
Hi Brady
To clarify my earlier postings, my own view is that TiddlyWiki’s design in the area of titles, IDs etc. is correct but incomplete.
Since the main thread we’ve added automated relinking of tags and lists, but the big component that is still missing is a decent search and replace operation that is syntactically aware; it can reliably find and replace all the references to a tiddler (without being confused by plain text references to the same text). Almost everything else that one might to change is within the parts of TiddlyWiki’s UI that are expressed in wikitext.
In my own usage of TiddlyWiki I use a variety of techniques depending on the situation. One technique that is useful when working with links embedded in narrative text (as opposed to auto-generated links), is to indirect through a field: put the target of a link in a field (eg, “link-0”, “link-1”, “link-2" etc,) and then refer to them via a macro (eg, “<<link 43 ‘The original document’>>”).
Best wishes
Jeremy.
Part of the issue is the idea of creating a Tiddler gets easily conceptually confused with creating a data record. This is something I have written at length about--that TiddlyWiki is NOT a "card-index"--though you can make it look like one.
Well, Josiah, I wasn't the one who came with the idea of creating a TiddlyWiki. Probably the best here would be asking Jeremy Ruston what was his initial vision and the intended usage of tiddlers and other basic building blocks. From your responses I feel I'm crossing some borders of fair-play when questioning basic functionality of the system. I really don't want to point at some dysfunction of the system that arises completely from my own misuse of TiddlyWiki. I'm well aware how much effort and time you spend to have a perfect system.
Usually when you create a record in software it creates a unique protected ID for a new record separate from whatever its user fillable fields add.
This is exactly the behavior that I expected from TiddlyWiki. Let's have a look at the Airtable <http://www.airtable.com/> app for instance that I use a lot for tabular data: Whenever you create a new record (a row in a table) it gets an internal ID that you don't see and cannot access for editing. You can even create an empty row in a table (that is perfectly correct) and then create relationships from other tables just by pointing to the row. At the same time each table has a "key" column that is used to simplify the linking of records, searching or filtering. It is a fully functional structure to be modified to my needs. If you overwrite the value in the "key" cell than all the linked records in other tables are automatically updated as well.
Not so with Tiddlers. The "title" IS the ID. On the one hand its flexibly lightweight. On the other hand it adds complications. Especially if you need extensive inter-linking and need to change titling as you go along. As far as I understand it, within the current basic architecture, fundamentally changing that behaviour is not possible. So its more about accepting it or finding ways round it.
I see. Maybe some quick analysis by the system architect will help to express
the amount of work to bring this flexibility
the consequences on your plugins etc.
Thanks again for spending your time and the patience you have with me, Josiah (and others as well).
Petr
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-18 15:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Ruston
With this arrangement, one avoids having literal tiddler links within the
text, and can instead manipulate the link fields very easily.
But you still have to change all field references when you change a title,
so it seems like the same problem exists.

IF the auto update of "list and tag fields" that happens when changing
tiddler titles could be made to include other designated fields, (e.g.
matching link-*) then the fields would be updated automatically whenever a
corresponding title was changed.

Thanks,
-- Mark
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Jeremy Ruston
2018-04-18 15:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mark
But you still have to change all field references when you change a title, so it seems like the same problem exists.
It’s much easier to whizz through all tiddlers looking for all the field names with a given prefix, and assign a new value, than it is to do a search and replace across the text field. The particular problem with search and replace is that it is very brittle. If I have a tiddler called “tiddler”, say, and rename it, I don’t want all the “<$tiddler>” widgets to also be reassigned.
IF the auto update of "list and tag fields" that happens when changing tiddler titles could be made to include other designated fields, (e.g. matching link-*) then the fields would be updated automatically whenever a corresponding title was changed.
Exactly that, it would be a very modest extension of the existing relinking code.

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/master/core/modules/wiki-bulkops.js <https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/master/core/modules/wiki-bulkops.js>

Best wishes

Jeremy.
Thanks,
-- Mark
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-19 22:32:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
IF the auto update of "list and tag fields" that happens when changing
tiddler titles could be made to include other designated fields, (e.g.
matching link-*) then the fields would be updated automatically whenever a
corresponding title was changed.
Exactly that, it would be a very modest extension of the existing relinking
Post by Jeremy Ruston
code.
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/master/core/modules/wiki-bulkops.js
Here's my version of bulkops. It borrows the option settings from "tags"
for now.

-- Mark

/*\
title: $:/core/modules/wiki-bulkops.js
type: application/javascript
module-type: wikimethod

MAS notes: Attempt to implement auto-rename of link fields (e.g. link1-#).
Changes marked as MAS


Bulk tiddler operations such as rename.

\*/
(function(){

/*jslint node: true, browser: true */
/*global $tw: false */
"use strict";

/*
Rename a tiddler, and relink any tags or lists that reference it.
*/
function renameTiddler(fromTitle,toTitle,options) {
fromTitle = (fromTitle || "").trim();
toTitle = (toTitle || "").trim();
options = options || {};
if(fromTitle && toTitle && fromTitle !== toTitle) {
// Rename the tiddler itself
var oldTiddler = this.getTiddler(fromTitle),
newTiddler = new $tw.Tiddler(oldTiddler,{title: toTitle},this.
getModificationFields());
newTiddler = $tw.hooks.invokeHook("th-renaming-tiddler",newTiddler,
oldTiddler);
this.addTiddler(newTiddler);
this.deleteTiddler(fromTitle);
// Rename any tags or lists that reference it
this.relinkTiddler(fromTitle,toTitle,options)
}
}

/*
Relink any tags or lists that reference a given tiddler
*/
function relinkTiddler(fromTitle,toTitle,options) {
var self = this;
fromTitle = (fromTitle || "").trim();
toTitle = (toTitle || "").trim();
options = options || {};
options.dontRenameLinkFields = options.dontRenameInTags ; // MAS --
until actual option is set up somewhere
if(fromTitle && toTitle && fromTitle !== toTitle) {
this.each(function(tiddler,title) {
var type = tiddler.fields.type || "";
// Don't touch plugins or JavaScript modules
// MAS adding 'fieldsWithLinks' for capturing fields that match
pattern link-#
// MAS adding 'changedFieldLinks' which will be filled new
link-# contents if reference link changes
if(!tiddler.fields["plugin-type"] && type !==
"application/javascript") {
var tags = (tiddler.fields.tags || []).slice(0),
list = (tiddler.fields.list || []).slice(0),
fieldsWithLinks = findlinks(tiddler.fields,/link-/),
changedFieldLinks = {} ,
isModified = false;
if(!options.dontRenameInTags) {
// Rename tags
$tw.utils.each(tags,function (title,index) {
if(title === fromTitle) {
console.log("Renaming tag '" + tags[index] + "' to '" + toTitle + "' of
tiddler '" + tiddler.fields.title + "'");
tags[index] = toTitle;
isModified = true;
}
});
}
if(!options.dontRenameInLists) {
// Rename lists
$tw.utils.each(list,function (title,index) {
if(title === fromTitle) {
console.log("Renaming list item '" + list[index] + "' to '" + toTitle + "'
of tiddler '" + tiddler.fields.title + "'");
list[index] = toTitle;
isModified = true;
}
});
}


if(!options.dontRenameLinkFields) { // MAS
// Rename link fields
var linkTitle ;
$tw.utils.each(fieldsWithLinks,function (linkset,index)
{
linkTitle = (linkset.title || "").trim() ;
if(linkTitle == fromTitle) {
console.log("DEBUG Renaming link item of field "
+ linkset.field + " from '" + linkset.title +"' to '" + toTitle + "' of
tiddler '" + tiddler.fields.title + "'");
changedFieldLinks[linkset.field] = toTitle;
isModified = true;
}
});
}

if(isModified) {
var newTiddler = new $tw.Tiddler(tiddler,
changedFieldLinks,{tags:tags, list: list},self.getModificationFields())
newTiddler = $tw.hooks.invokeHook("th-relinking-tiddler"
,newTiddler,tiddler);
self.addTiddler(newTiddler);
}
}
});
}
};


var findlinks = function(obj, filter) {
var key, keys = [];
console.log("Object type " + typeof obj) ;
for (key in obj) {
if ( filter.test(key)) {
keys.push({"field" :key, "title": obj[key]});
}
}
return keys;
}

exports.renameTiddler = renameTiddler;
exports.relinkTiddler = relinkTiddler;

})();
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Brady77
2018-04-17 15:03:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jed Carty
A tiddler is an object with an internal id, it is the title field. You can
add fields to it without changing the identity of the tiddler. Once you
change the title of the tiddler you are changing the internal id.
This same argument has been made many times and there has never been a
solution presented that doesn't have the same problems as using a title.
You need to have a unique identifier on each tiddler, to link to a tiddler
you need this id. Regardless of how you twist things around this id is
equivalent to the title. I think that in most cases it is much more
convenient to have this id be a human readable one.
Thanks Jed for your opinion. I think that the internal ID is nothing a user
is allowed to modify. This should be completely hidden from user interface.
This is actually my only problem: I changed the internal ID of an object
but it wasn't my intention at all. I just wanted to edit a text field and
ended with broken links.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-17 15:32:24 UTC
Permalink
With all the talk about esoteric concepts like "Quines", I was surprised
that TW5 had the same fundamental problem that TWC had. In database
parlance, you never use the same field for more than one thing. This is law
#1 of database normalization, which allows for massive amounts of data to
be processed every day even by relatively low-powered computers.

The title field is being used for at least 3 jobs: title, ID, and system
flag. There should be 3 fields for each of these tasks. A beginner error is
to then use it for something else (like dates).

The fix is to use something like uni-links so that the title field can be
used as an immutable ID field. Another fix would be a tool that, when you
change a title, finds and replaces all links. I thought there was a promise
of such a thing a long time ago.

My general formulation for unique titles is

<date> <topic> [<user>]

The mistake would be, of course to use the title to *store* the date. I'm
just using it here to keep things unique without having to think too hard.

Beginners using TW and used to full-fledged Wikis and other systems (Zim?
Wikidpad?) will probably be surprised when changing titles doesn't also
change links.

-- Mark
Post by Brady77
Hi,
any solution to the problem? I don't believe that Felix and me are the
only TiddlyWiki users who are struggling with renaming the tiddlers (or
tags). Let's go to the roots of TiddlyWiki that positions as a *system of
small pieces of related information*. How does is play with such a basic
operation called "change tiddler title" by breaking all references? There
is probably something I have missed at the beginning but it seems to me
like building a dam on a river from sugar cubes: you have a solid structure
just until you fill it with water...
Is it a technical problem? Or a too much work to change the system? Or a
backward compatibility problem? A combination of? Should we create a plan
to untangle it?
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'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-22 11:54:01 UTC
Permalink
As a new TiddlyWiki user, I also find the possibility of "renaming tiddlers
without breaking the links" to be significant. That's why I think this
discussion is both very interesting and important!

From the BEGINNER's perspective, with the following points, I'd argue for
the SIMPLEST possible method of "renaming tiddlers without breaking the
links":

a) *LINKING* is the *FIRST* thing you want to start doing once you become a
user of TiddlyWiki.
b) The *SIMPLEST* thing to do is to use the simplest linking syntax: *[[Tiddler
title]]*.
c) Especially in the beginning, you *WILL WANT* to *RENAME* tiddlers, since
you have not developed the naming system yet.
d) You begin with simple things, that's why, in the beginning, you *WILL
NOT* care/know much about *captions, subtitles, aliases, UUIDs,* linking
via "link-fields" (proposal by Jeremy), problem solving macros/plugins and
so on.
e) You SEE your tiddler TITLE all the time (its text is large and comes in
front) and you try to use it immediately. It is both the representative for
the content of your tiddler and the identifier of your tiddler (to produce
links).

In recent weeks, I have gained a little bit experience in TiddlyWiki and
I've also noticed that the creation dates are almost unique. That is why,
having read the posts in this thread, I'd like to say that the following
views by Mark and Tony resonate with me:

*Mark S*. wrote: "My general formulation for unique titles is <date>
<topic> [<user>]"

*TonyM* wrote: "In addition to your suggestion a "New Tiddler macro" or
current tiddler "set ID" that assigns an ID in an additional field at
creation time (see alternate below) could be used when and only when a
tiddler needs to be referenced. An Edit toolbar helper like the current
insert {{-}} or [[-]] or excise tool that inserts the <<link ID#>> from the
selected tiddler name would also make this almost transparent."


If, as Jeremy points, *a)* enforcing of TWO uniquely-valued fields (title
and id) per tiddler would be too expensive, and *b)* UUIDs are typically
unreadable, one could then elaborate on Mark's and Tony's ideas and:

1. Have an ID field created automatically at the creation time of
tiddler, or, to improve readability of IDs, have a button in the edit
toolbar which would create an ID (for the tiddler with title "First tiddler
title" and creation time "20180422140830123") of the following form:
"2018-04-08-First-tiddler-title-14:08:30-123ms". If you are not satisfied
with some abstract automatically generated ID, you could then press that
button at the time when you are about to create your first link to the
tiddler under consideration (or whenever you think the current title of the
tiddler is suitable to generate the ID from). [After pressing the button, a
warning could also pop up, explaining that changing the id would break the
existing links.]
2. Have a second button in the edit toolbar that would replace the
selection Actual tiddler title with <$list
filter=[field:id[2018-04-08-First-tiddler-title-14:08:30-123ms]!has[draft.of]]
/>.

Vytas
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-17 15:35:41 UTC
Permalink
2014. I wonder if TW proved useful for Felix's master thesis project?

-- Mark
Hello,
I am currently working on my master thesis and organize myself via TW5.
TW5 is truly a great program and it really supports my workflow, however I
have a little problem.
*My problem:*
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Jed Carty
2018-04-17 16:44:24 UTC
Permalink
I don't really see the need for it to be immutable, so that point isn't
universally agreed upon. There are a number of things in tiddlywiki that
are done by overwriting a tiddler based on the name. Almost any time you
change a setting that has a default value in the core you create a new
tiddler that has the same name as the core tiddler. While tiddlywiki can be
used as a database it isn't a database. For everything I do relationships
between tiddlers are handled using tags and other fields to generate the
needed links or relationships, the names almost never come into it.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-17 17:52:59 UTC
Permalink
We're kind of going back and forth on what's easiest for the *beginner*. I
think you may be over-qualified as a beginner.

Most beginner's instinct will be to connect notes by linking. That's what
Wikis are all about, isn't it? In which case they need to understand
quickly the consequences of their name choices. Other Wikis they have
encountered may offer to change links when a title changes, so this may
come as a surprise.

Once you're using the title for linking, the title either needs to be
immutable, or you have to be willing to accept that you will have broken
links.

-- Mark
Post by Jed Carty
I don't really see the need for it to be immutable, so that point isn't
universally agreed upon. There are a number of things in tiddlywiki that
are done by overwriting a tiddler based on the name. Almost any time you
change a setting that has a default value in the core you create a new
tiddler that has the same name as the core tiddler. While tiddlywiki can be
used as a database it isn't a database. For everything I do relationships
between tiddlers are handled using tags and other fields to generate the
needed links or relationships, the names almost never come into it.
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Brady77
2018-04-17 18:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jed Carty
I don't really see the need for it to be immutable, so that point isn't
universally agreed upon. There are a number of things in tiddlywiki that
are done by overwriting a tiddler based on the name. Almost any time you
change a setting that has a default value in the core you create a new
tiddler that has the same name as the core tiddler.
You are right Jed. It was premature to state that.
Post by Jed Carty
While tiddlywiki can be used as a database it isn't a database. For
everything I do relationships between tiddlers are handled using tags and
other fields to generate the needed links or relationships, the names
almost never come into it.
According to the official documentation (Philosophy of Tiddlers
<https://tiddlywiki.com/#Philosophy%20of%20Tiddlers> and Structuring
TiddlyWiki <https://tiddlywiki.com/#Structuring%20TiddlyWiki>) there are
five basic building blocks to structure the Wiki:

1. Tiddlers <https://tiddlywiki.com/#Structuring%20TiddlyWiki> - only
field that is required is the title field
2. TiddlerLinks <https://tiddlywiki.com/#Linking%20in%20WikiText> - link
to a tiddler by title [[Tiddler Title]]
3. Tagging <https://tiddlywiki.com/#Tagging> - "A tag is in fact just a
tiddler (or a potential tiddler), and it can have tags of its own. You can
add any number of tags to the same tiddler." - If tag is internally a
tiddler then 1. applies
4. Title Lists <https://tiddlywiki.com/#Title%20List> - "A title list is
a line of text that presents one or more tiddler titles" - is based on
tiddler titles
5. DataTiddlers <https://tiddlywiki.com/#DataTiddlers> - named
properties are accessed by referencing the data tiddler title again

I didn't examine any important functions (like searching etc) but so far it
is obvious that the tiddler title should not be modified not just because
of the links, but because of other building blocks as well. It is true at
the same time that there are special cases when it is desirable to change
or set the tiddler title (as Josiah stated above).
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TonyM
2018-04-18 06:40:38 UTC
Permalink
Brady et al..

I find this discussion quite interesting because this issue is never one I
am concerned about. Using the uni-link plugin also seems to solve all other
cases I can imagine. Is it because I am really good at selecting Titles or
the fact I usually establish relationships through other mechanisms such as
tagging? I can personally see applications where I would establish fields
and or tagging to handle tiddlers with a large number of related tiddlers
such as adding paragraph and chapter values so including tiddlers or
relationships uses a programmatic method which does not care about the
tiddlers title to work and thus can be renamed without damage.

Can you describe what kind of use or method you have that is making your
solution title sensitive and I may be able to suggest an alternative?

I typically only transclude in a tiddler {{tiddlername}} if it is code or
systems design where I do not care what the name is, only that I have the
correct name. If I Found my self with [[no longer appropriate title to
appear in text]] I would use [[newtitle|no longer appropriate title to
appear in text]] as Mario suggested, or I would rename the tiddler and its
reference(s). This is not a problem if it is occasional and if it was a
problem because the item was referred to in many places I would find a
programmatic way to implement it.

Lets also consider, what If I am using a large set of titles I expect may
need lots of renaming, I can use the pretty link, caption or uni-links
plugin to help (I find this hard to believe this is not enough), but if I
had this problem, then I would find a programmatic solution to this. You
could use an intermediate Glossary as an index to the original tiddler
using a unique value in a field, then use macros to insert the tiddler what
ever its name.

What I say is if and when you are inserting into a tiddler a Link or
Transclusion to another tiddler ask your self could I possibly need to
change the name, not only here but in many places then just do not do it,
find another solution.

Please define the occasions where this is occurring and let me suggest a
solution. I love these kinds of challenges, and I seem not to have the
problem you are voicing.

Regards
Tony
Post by Brady77
Post by Jed Carty
I don't really see the need for it to be immutable, so that point isn't
universally agreed upon. There are a number of things in tiddlywiki that
are done by overwriting a tiddler based on the name. Almost any time you
change a setting that has a default value in the core you create a new
tiddler that has the same name as the core tiddler.
You are right Jed. It was premature to state that.
Post by Jed Carty
While tiddlywiki can be used as a database it isn't a database. For
everything I do relationships between tiddlers are handled using tags and
other fields to generate the needed links or relationships, the names
almost never come into it.
According to the official documentation (Philosophy of Tiddlers
<https://tiddlywiki.com/#Philosophy%20of%20Tiddlers> and Structuring
TiddlyWiki <https://tiddlywiki.com/#Structuring%20TiddlyWiki>) there are
1. Tiddlers <https://tiddlywiki.com/#Structuring%20TiddlyWiki> - only
field that is required is the title field
2. TiddlerLinks <https://tiddlywiki.com/#Linking%20in%20WikiText> -
link to a tiddler by title [[Tiddler Title]]
3. Tagging <https://tiddlywiki.com/#Tagging> - "A tag is in fact just
a tiddler (or a potential tiddler), and it can have tags of its own. You
can add any number of tags to the same tiddler." - If tag is internally a
tiddler then 1. applies
4. Title Lists <https://tiddlywiki.com/#Title%20List> - "A title list
is a line of text that presents one or more tiddler titles" - is based on
tiddler titles
5. DataTiddlers <https://tiddlywiki.com/#DataTiddlers> - named
properties are accessed by referencing the data tiddler title again
I didn't examine any important functions (like searching etc) but so far
it is obvious that the tiddler title should not be modified not just
because of the links, but because of other building blocks as well. It is
true at the same time that there are special cases when it is desirable to
change or set the tiddler title (as Josiah stated above).
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Jed Carty
2018-04-17 18:02:22 UTC
Permalink
That is a good point. As someone who is no longer qualified to be a
beginner, what is the alternative being presented?

If it is just "Display something other than the title in the title field"
we can do that by a plugin easily enough, or add an option to toggle the
template between the current version and using the caption or something.

If it is to reengineer how linking works than we need an alternative that
doesn't break tiddlywiki.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-17 18:18:41 UTC
Permalink
How about ...

When a tiddler is brand new, the user can edit both the title (which will
be called title/id) and the sub-title (which will be above the title
field). The title will have a suggested, date-and-userstamped title (why
stamped? more below) After a tiddler is saved once and then subsequently
edited, the editor will only present the subtitle field for editing, though
it will present the title for copying. A user can turn off this behavior in
the configuration, will have verbiage about the consequences of changing
titles.

All of this will just impact the UI and possibly the documentation.
Internally, everything can work as before. The date-stamped title will help
prevent conflict when dragging tiddlers between TW instances (because
otherwise there are going to be lots of 'New Tiddler 1' conflicts).

Ideally the core would also offer something like uni-link, but even if it
doesn't the user can make their own pretty link with whatever title they
want.

----

Another solution would be a plugin that detects when a tiddler is being
saved with a new title. Then, just like with tag tiddlers now, it will
offer to find and change all matching tiddler links. Of course, this
wouldn't help anyone who has a link from another TW instance.

-- Mark
Post by Jed Carty
That is a good point. As someone who is no longer qualified to be a
beginner, what is the alternative being presented?
If it is just "Display something other than the title in the title field"
we can do that by a plugin easily enough, or add an option to toggle the
template between the current version and using the caption or something.
If it is to reengineer how linking works than we need an alternative that
doesn't break tiddlywiki.
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Brady77
2018-04-18 13:07:56 UTC
Permalink
@PMario:

I spent some time with the uni-link plugin to see how it works for me.
First I have to say that it is very close to be a good workaround for
"broken links" problem. I have a couple of questions.

1. In the advanced search
- Can I use caption / subtitle values in the standard search tab?
- Is it possible to display the results from the filter as a list of
captions / subtitles?
2. I tried your "stant-01" theme as well.
- Is possible in the edit mode to show the tiddler title as a field
at the bottom and hide it at the top?

@ Mark.S
Point 2 is probably close to what you have mentioned earlier as well.

@ TonyM
Thanks for offering your help as well. I'm building my personal knowledge
base to so I can be more effective at my job. I work as an network engineer
and I'm dealing with quite complex information. Partly I have to deeply
understand some networking topics, partly to remember some workflows
(tutorials, how-tos, guides etc.). This knowledge changes quite often as
the technology evolves and so I need my tiddlers to reflect those changes
as well. This is especially true while studying something new: at the
beginning I decide for a name of tiddler and later I realize that this name
is completely wrong (just becase I knew almost nothing about the topic at
the beginning). To put it simple: I need some flexibility to only at
modifying the text field, but also by naming the tiddlers. I can certainly
live with the uni-link plugin regarding the "broken-links" problem. But
there are some important functions that lack the support for captions /
subtitles (see my questions at the beginning). So we can discuss it further.

@Jeremy Ruston
Hi Jeremy!

1. Sorry I didn't get what you proposed (as well as @Miroslav Kalous).
What problem does it solve? Maybe some example will help. Thanks.
2. Can you compare the difficulty of
- preparing a new release of TiddlyWiki that deals with tiddlers (and
other building blocks) as objects that can be referenced independently on
the user text-fields? Same functionality as I mentioned above while talking
about Airtable interface.
- fixing broken links and functions (filters, lists, macros etc) on
the fly after the tiddler ID changed
3. Could you explain in more detail what is the difference between
changing tiddler title and tag name? What if I use a tiddler as a tag?

Thank you.

Petr
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-18 14:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Could you explain in more detail what is the difference between changing
tiddler title and tag name? What if I use a tiddler as a tag?
This part *has *been automated. If a tiddler title is the same as a tag
name, and you change the title, a small dialogue will appear below the
title field offering to change all the tags to reflect this change.

" Update *<MyOldTitle>* to *<MyNewTitle>* in the *tags* and *list* fields
of other tiddlers"

Of course, it won't be able to change the tag name in any macros you
previously invoked or defined with "MyOldTitle".

-- Mark
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Jeremy Ruston
2018-04-18 14:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Hi Brady
Perhaps my earlier reply helps?
Post by Brady77
Can you compare the difficulty of
preparing a new release of TiddlyWiki that deals with tiddlers (and other building blocks) as objects that can be referenced independently on the user text-fields? Same functionality as I mentioned above while talking about Airtable interface.
Are you asking about the ability to refer to a tiddler by a field other than it’s title?
Post by Brady77
fixing broken links and functions (filters, lists, macros etc) on the fly after the tiddler ID changed
Do you mean by using search and replace?
Post by Brady77
Could you explain in more detail what is the difference between changing tiddler title and tag name? What if I use a tiddler as a tag?
"Changing a tiddler title" actually means deleting it and recreating a new tiddler with the same fields but the new title. “Changing a tag name” means both:

* renaming a tiddler that is being used as a tag
* changing references to that tiddler in the “tags” field of other tiddlers

Best wishes

Jeremy
Post by Brady77
Thank you.
Petr
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Brady77
2018-04-19 11:16:53 UTC
Permalink
1. Can you compare the difficulty of
- preparing a new release of TiddlyWiki that deals with tiddlers
(and other building blocks) as objects that can be referenced independently
on the user text-fields? Same functionality as I mentioned above while
talking about Airtable interface.
Are you asking about the ability to refer to a tiddler by a field other
than it’s title?
Yes. Let me explain it by workflow. Say I start with a new TiddlyWiki:

1. Create my first tiddler with no title

1a. Hit the plus button

1b. Leave the title field empty

- by empty I mean nothing there - no prefilled title

1c. Type "My first lovely tiddler" into the textarea

1d. Save and close the tiddler

Notes:

- behind the scenes the tiddler gets some system values like an internal
unique ID, created time-stamp, modified time-stamp, owner ID, last editor
ID (you name it)



2. Want to see what I have now in my Wiki

2a. Go to right-side panel

2b. Visit the list of recent tiddlers

- there is one row on the list with title "*(empty)*"

Notes:

- the word "empty" in parentheses and italic indicates that there is no
tiddler title filled in



3. Create another tiddler with a link to the first

3a. Leave the title field empty

3b. Go to the textarea and click the link button (or Ctrl-l)

- the modal shows me input field for searching

- below the input field there is a section called "5 recent tiddlers" with
one row listed as *(empty)*

3d. Choose the row with title *(empty)*

- the textarea has now a clickable link shown as *(empty)*

3e. Type "My second lovely tiddler" on a row below the link

3f. Save and close the tiddler



4. Revisit the list of recent tiddlers

- there are two rows now

- each row has the same title *(empty)*



5. Now I want to find my first tiddler via advanced search

5a. Click the magnifier icon from the right-side panel

5b. Go to the Standard search tab and type "lovely" there

- I get two rows with title *(empty)*

- oops: what to choose? no way to distinguish between those two tiddlers
just by title *(empty)*

- have to make some corrections...



6. Want to change the title of the first tiddler

6a. Select the tiddler at the bottom of the recent tiddlers list

- should be the first one that I added to my Wiki

6b. Open the tiddler for editing and enter "First one" into the title

6e. Save and close the tiddler



7. Review the link in my second tiddler and change the title as well

7a. Select the only *(empty)* title from the recent tiddlers list

- the link title in the text area has changed already to "First one"

- clicking the link bring me to the tiddler First one - nothing is broken

7b. Open second tiddler for editing and change the title from nothing to
"Second"

7c. Save and close the second tiddler



From the user perspective the "key" field remains the tiddler title. Output
from important functions like searching are filtering remains the same: the
tiddler title. But internally (for instance links between tiddlers) the
system uses the tiddler ID for the URI. Should the interface be more geeky
while creating links to avoid the link button, there could be an autofill
function as you start typing [[.
- fixing broken links and functions (filters, lists, macros etc) on
the fly after the tiddler ID changed
Do you mean by using search and replace?
No, Jeremy, I'm referring to the auto-correction processes that must run
behind the scenes each time I decide to change the tag or tiddler title.
You said that it is very difficult to parse all the wiki tiddlers correctly
so that only relevant parts are auto-magically changed to reflect the new
title. Tags are probably much easier to change than the titles.

So I wanted to know your expert opinion: What is more difficult? 1) Change
the system so it works as described by the workflow above or 2) Try to find
the correct algorithm to auto-magically correct what is broken.

Thanks for your time, Jeremy.

Petr

PS: I'm well aware of all the workarounds that already exists (including
the uni-link plugin, special themes etc). I just want to know whether a
system change isn't more robust, user-friendly (avoiding errors and
confusions, installing special plugins), simpler, consistent and
straightforward and long-lasting than workarounds.
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Jeremy Ruston
2018-04-19 15:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Hi Brady
OK, you’re describing what I think of as the “GUID approach”. It’s a nice pattern, and definitely resonates with a lot of users. I don’t see it as requiring a major change to the TW core design, though: it’s predominantly high level UI entities that would need to change (eg the edit template). Personally, I’m not a huge fan because of the unreadability of link targets, but I’d like TW5 to support it for those that want it.
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Post by Brady77
fixing broken links and functions (filters, lists, macros etc) on the fly after the tiddler ID changed
Do you mean by using search and replace?
No, Jeremy, I'm referring to the auto-correction processes that must run behind the scenes each time I decide to change the tag or tiddler title. You said that it is very difficult to parse all the wiki tiddlers correctly so that only relevant parts are auto-magically changed to reflect the new title.
What I was driving at was that a naive search-and-replace algorithm would be insufficient in some situations. A syntax-aware search-and-replace mechanism isn’t too tricky: there’s already syntax-aware search in the form of the feature that extracts outgoing links from a tiddler. It does so by searching the tree resulting from parsing the text, rather than searching the text directly. Adding the replace part isn’t too tricky; in fact, it would probably be one of those things where the complexity isn’t in the mechanism but rather the user interface needed to drive it.
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Tags are probably much easier to change than the titles.
Yes indeed, and TW already offers the ability to relink tags when renaming a tiddler.
Post by Jeremy Ruston
So I wanted to know your expert opinion: What is more difficult? 1) Change the system so it works as described by the workflow above or 2) Try to find the correct algorithm to auto-magically correct what is broken.
This feels like a false dichotomy. “Changing the system” implies that it wouldn’t work in the way that it does currently, which would be a problem from a backwards compatibility perspective. Perhaps the option is better expressed as “augment the system so it can work as described above”.

Anyhow, these aren’t mutually exclusive options. And of course there are also other important attributes beyond difficulty of implementation: simplicity, universality, risk, robustness, security.

But if you want to focus on implementation difficulty, option (a) touches many components of the system while (b) is a self-contained subsystem with well defined inputs and outputs. My experience suggests that the complexity of a software task depends primarily on the number of entities involved, and so I would be inclined to think of option (b) as being less difficult.
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Thanks for your time, Jeremy.
No problem, thank you for the thoughtful and interesting questions. These discussions are often illuminating.

Best wishes

Jeremy.
Post by Jeremy Ruston
PS: I'm well aware of all the workarounds that already exists (including the uni-link plugin, special themes etc). I just want to know whether a system change isn't more robust, user-friendly (avoiding errors and confusions, installing special plugins), simpler, consistent and straightforward and long-lasting than workarounds.
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Brady77
2018-04-21 11:46:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jeremy again,

Jeremy Ruston wrote:

OK, you’re describing what I think of as the “GUID approach”. It’s a nice
Post by Jeremy Ruston
pattern, and definitely resonates with a lot of users. I don’t see it as
requiring a major change to the TW core design, though: it’s predominantly
high level UI entities that would need to change (eg the edit template).
Personally, I’m not a huge fan because of the unreadability of link
targets, but I’d like TW5 to support it for those that want it.
I really appreciate how you approached this issue. Part of user-base has
found ways around this and don't consider it painful at all. Nevertheless
you are still listening (to novice voices) and are open to find some
solution. I would like to kindly ask you for driving (managing) the
changes. There are many good reasons: you are the father of TiddlyWiki, the
architect, you can balance between the pros/cons and see the consequences.

This feels like a false dichotomy. “Changing the system” implies that it
Post by Jeremy Ruston
wouldn’t work in the way that it does currently, which would be a problem
from a backwards compatibility perspective. Perhaps the option is better
expressed as “augment the system so it can work as described above”.
Yes, I know. I intentionally created this high level of contrast to push
this further. Honestly, I went trough many similar discussions (as @PMario
points here as well) and get completely lost - there was no real solution,
ever. Even if many members tried their best to solve it reasonably
(including you). I felt internally (this is solely my own opinion) that it
is caused by missing support at the core - the basic building blocks lack
some functionality. In another words: all the workarounds were trying (with
some degree of success) to fix something that the core was supposed to do
by design. Once again - I have no technical knowledge - this is solely
based on what I read from discussions and what I had a chance to try as a
solution. I'm telling you this with full respect to your excellent job and
the brilliant idea that lasts for years.

But if you want to focus on implementation difficulty, option (a) touches
Post by Jeremy Ruston
many components of the system while (b) is a self-contained subsystem with
well defined inputs and outputs. My experience suggests that the complexity
of a software task depends primarily on the number of entities involved,
and so I would be inclined to think of option (b) as being less difficult.
To ease this discussion: like from a fairy-tale: "Which path you choose is
solely in your hands. We are with you, captain! The community is hanging on
your lips to follow you."

Best wishes to you, Jeremy.

Petr
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Jeremy Ruston
2018-04-21 16:51:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Petr

Thanks for the comments, much appreciated. You make a strong case for these improvements, and I take your point that it may require my attention to make them happen. I can’t promise to work on it immediately, but I’ll try to give it some time.

In the meantime, the experiments by Mario and others might help us explore some of the UI issues.

For example, link handling will need rethinking. We’d probably want [[8EBDE50D-090C-40F0-B204-7907B4B1A780]] to produce the following wikitext:

<$link to="8EBDE50D-090C-40F0-B204-7907B4B1A780">
<$view tiddler="8EBDE50D-090C-40F0-B204-7907B4B1A780" field="caption"/>
</$link>

Right now, it produces this:

<$link to="8EBDE50D-090C-40F0-B204-7907B4B1A780">
<$text text="8EBDE50D-090C-40F0-B204-7907B4B1A780"/>
</$link>

As you’ve noted, losing easily typeable links could be mitigated by providing a popup search that is triggered on double square brackets.

Best wishes

Jeremy.
Post by Brady77
Hi Jeremy again,
OK, you’re describing what I think of as the “GUID approach”. It’s a nice pattern, and definitely resonates with a lot of users. I don’t see it as requiring a major change to the TW core design, though: it’s predominantly high level UI entities that would need to change (eg the edit template). Personally, I’m not a huge fan because of the unreadability of link targets, but I’d like TW5 to support it for those that want it.
I really appreciate how you approached this issue. Part of user-base has found ways around this and don't consider it painful at all. Nevertheless you are still listening (to novice voices) and are open to find some solution. I would like to kindly ask you for driving (managing) the changes. There are many good reasons: you are the father of TiddlyWiki, the architect, you can balance between the pros/cons and see the consequences.
This feels like a false dichotomy. “Changing the system” implies that it wouldn’t work in the way that it does currently, which would be a problem from a backwards compatibility perspective. Perhaps the option is better expressed as “augment the system so it can work as described above”.
But if you want to focus on implementation difficulty, option (a) touches many components of the system while (b) is a self-contained subsystem with well defined inputs and outputs. My experience suggests that the complexity of a software task depends primarily on the number of entities involved, and so I would be inclined to think of option (b) as being less difficult.
To ease this discussion: like from a fairy-tale: "Which path you choose is solely in your hands. We are with you, captain! The community is hanging on your lips to follow you."
Best wishes to you, Jeremy.
Petr
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PMario
2018-04-21 23:45:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Ruston
For example, link handling will need rethinking. We’d probably want
Hi,

The uni-link code contains 2 macro tiddlers ... the uni-link-macro and the
aka-macro

eg: aka ... Is called if you use a link like this: [[alias-text|?]] ... So
you can basically change, the macro, to any elements you want to display.
... So if the 8EBDE50D-090C-40F0-B204-
7907B4B1A780 tiddler will contain an aliases field it should already work
out of the box. ... including alias backlinks.

https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/uni-link/#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Fwikilabs%2Funi-link%2Faka-macros:%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Fwikilabs%2Funi-link%2Faka-macros%20%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Fwikilabs%2Funi-link%2Funi-link-macro

There is some stuff missing. ... But the basics should be there for
experimenting.

have fun!
mario
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Brady77
2018-04-24 07:09:26 UTC
Permalink
@Jeremy, @PMario, @Mark S.

Thank you very much, Jeremy.

According the uni-link plugin: I was using the uni-link macro from the
bundle, only. Why? It "just" gives you more options for referencing given
tiddler. In case you change tiddler alias (for whatever reason you may
have) you end up with broken links, again. I like the idea of aliases but
only if they would allow for renaming as well. Should Jeremy come with a
"structural solution" for this topic, aliases may be considered, too.

We have now three components of current workarounds:

- uni-link plugin (PMario)
- slant-01 theme (PMario)
- some direct edits (Mark S.)

What I do miss a lot is a support for captions / subtitles while searching
or filtering. Is there anyone to help with this, too? Thanks.

Petr
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'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-02 17:49:42 UTC
Permalink
I've done some work regarding linking via the id field (along the lines of
I have talked about a couple of posts above).

The essence is that, with two clicks in a ViewToolbar (you can reduce it to
one click, if you don't mind skipping the confirmation step), you can
generate a very readable id for any given tiddler from its creation date
and title. Then you can link to this tiddler via its id. For this you need
to write tiddler's title, select it and excise (one click in the
EditorToolbar). Then you insert a macro (second click in the
EditorToolbar). The macro produces the link and is of the following form:
<<linktoid "id">>.

If you think it might be of some use, you can check the discussion thread
dedicated to this tool:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/DiowJLeoJbw .
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Brady77
2018-05-03 13:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi Vytas,

I will not comment on the 'technical' side of your solution because I'm
just an end-user. Nevertheless: in this particular case I would probably
wait for Jeremy's decision. I'm trying to avoid any direct links between
tiddlers, now. In other words I'm following Tony's recommendation to use
tags, only.

Please forgive me my openness but I think that in this phase a birds-eye
overview or high-level description of your approach to this issue (what,
why, how, pros, cons) would be more beneficial to coding something not yet
agreed upon. My reasons for posting this are as follows: not everyone in
this discussion is a coder (including me) so I/we cannot comment on it even
if the issue touches my workflow significantly. Another problem is that my
current wiki may become corrupt soon since I'm trying any proposed
solutions above (with backups, for sure) without understanding the impact
on system if combined.

Thank you for your comments and the proposal.

Petr
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'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-03 22:09:30 UTC
Permalink
Petr,

I am also not a coder. I just found the problem to be really important and
took the opportunity to learn more about the TW mark-up language by trying
to do something which seemed to be doable. With some dedicated some time
and patience, this "tool" resulted mostly from browsing the official TW
website, searching the forum, putting other peoples' code together and from
quite a lot of trial and error. If it would contribute a little bit, as
Jeremy has put it, to the "experimentation" regarding this topic, I would
be more than happy :)

If you are worried that your wiki could become corrupt as a result of
imported solutions, I would say that the approach I proposed is quite
robust, because:

The only thing I actually used was the good old ListWidget: <$list
filter=[field:id[qqu99yie1]!has[draft.of]] /> (see the first post of this
thread by Felix in 2014!). So, as long as TW supports the ListWidget and
the usage of fields, it will work. If you do not want to "pollute" your
wiki with extraneous macros, you could replace "text=<<linktoid2 $(idvar)$>>"
by "text=<<linktoid $(idvar)$>>" in the "insert-linktoid" tiddler. Then
instead of <<linktoid "tiddler's_id">> you would insert <$list
filter=[field:id[tiddler's_id]!has[draft.of]] /> (I chose to use the macro
just for a better readability) and you would be completely independent of
any extraneous macros! That is, as soon as you do not want to use the tool
anymore (for example, as soon as there is a solution in the core of TW to
incorporate UUIDs or equivalent), you could delete all of the four tiddlers
and your links would still work! Because the four tiddlers of the tool
would ONLY assist you in inserting the link <$list
filter=[field:id[tiddler's_id]]/>, and would not play any active role
afterwards.

What I personally like about this method, is that you can basically choose
how the IDs will look like: for its generation you can combine the
tiddler's creation date and its first title ("first title" means tiddler's
title just before you are about to create the first link to it) in almost
any combination you can imagine. Also, you retain great readability of the
wikitext!

For the future, I imagine TiddyWiki:

a) Retaining the enforced uniqueness of the title field.
b) Having for all practical purposes unique id field.
c) Choosing a special symbol to start ids with (e.g. #) and forbidding
starting titles with it.
d) Supporting both [[title]] and [[id]] for linking, as well as the ability
to refer to either title or id interchangeably (in any macro/widget, where
now you have to use the title as a parameter).
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TonyM
2018-05-04 05:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Vytas,

I am impressed with your solution as I understand it and your "jumping into the deep end of the pool".

I am sure your solution is effective however because I think this should be a fundimental feature of tiddlywiki I am keen to develop it further.

Personally I favor using a copy of the created date guarenteed to be unique in a field using the milliseconds to ensure this, then using the uni-link plugin to make this an alias which can always be refered to using uni-links notation. I would like to add an insert tiddler link to the editor toolbar that allows you to search tiddler titles but insert references to the unique id, that displays the current title even when it changes.

Given your expirence now what do you think?

Regards
Tony
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'Vytas' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-04 22:03:24 UTC
Permalink
Thank you, Tony!
Well, I don't see that the alias syntax would be already suitable to deal
with ids. [[8EBDE50D-090C-40F0-B204-7907B4B1A780|?]] would produce the
correct link, but you would have to click on
"8EBDE50D-090C-40F0-B204-7907B4B1A780" to get to the tiddler. So, it would
not be an "ugly" link.

I would not be very happy to see only the created date in the wikitext when
producing links. 20180504211727876 is almost as unreadable as
"8EBDE50D-090C-40F0-B204-7907B4B1A780". Here I support Jeremy's strive for
readability.

I agree, that a small search field in the EditorToolbar would be helpful.
There you could enter a part of a tiddler title, get a drop-down, where you
could select the tiddler you have looked for. This would insert a link via
the tiddler's id and everyone would be happy. Actually, the click on the
title could run a small program: if the corresponding tiddler has the id,
then the program would insert the link via the id, and if the selected
tiddler doesn't have the id yet, the program would generate the id (e.g.,
the way my tool generates IDs) and would insert the link via the id! This
would be fantastic! The patience of waiting for the right time to generate
the id would pay its dividends by producing a very readable ID made out of
the already relatively well-chosen title! Whereas in my method you have to
click four times to generate the id, confirm it, excise a precise title and
insert a linktoid, in the method I described above, you would have to click
only twice: to open a search box and to select a title. Moreover, the
search function would not require that you should remember the exact title!
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TonyM
2018-05-05 08:43:05 UTC
Permalink
Vytas,

May be my idea is not exactly like the alias plugin but similar. My idea is the id field need never be seen, however it could be displayed as a datetime and or database name.

The id field could be created for any new tiddler.

When you insert a link to a tiddler it uses the tiddlers current title to lookup the tiddlers unique id and inserts something like this;

[[UniqueId|?]]<!-- tiddler name at insertion or refresh-->

Which will always display as link to the tiddler

Current title of tiddler

What ever the tiddlers title at the time that will be displayed as its read.

My key use case is to introduce short titles or phrases I can use in multiple places how ever I can change them every where they are mentioned by changing the title.

I would also use a variant to transcluded the content of a tiddler whos name I can change that contains a snipit of text or even a macro.

A final varient will list both the changable title and that tiddlers content all by reference to the unchanging unique Id.

Finaly on hovering over said title or text it would be nice if a tooltip is displayed showing the content of the target tiddlers description field.

I see all this as providing a way to build content that can be developed over time.

Regards
Tony
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TonyM
2018-04-20 00:20:28 UTC
Permalink
Brady77,

Forgive my delayed response, although you may see additional contributions
in this thread.. Thanks for explaining what you are trying to do. I
understand what you are trying to do because networking in one of my areas
since I have being in IT for some time. I recently did some training on
BigData which would be similar to your learning curve.

I adopted TiddlyWiki Classic many years ago and still maintain a knowledge
base in it but are gradually moving features and functionality into TW5.

I am confident it is only if you use [[embedded links]] or
{{transclusions}} that you are likely to come across this problem because
you can rename titles with no loss.

A Common technique I use is the new here so lets say you have a "Security"
subject, go to the Security tiddler and go new here to add security items,
or tag them with Security. By always having a tag of the "parent" tiddler
at a minimum you will always be able to list items so tagged. Renaming them
changes nothing, except if they are listed in alphabetical order. You can
also use the list field and a drag-able list such as a dragable table of
Contents. Most of the time I access technical info I first search "titles"
and "Text" then open even a related tiddler, then use the tags to refine
the tiddlers I am looking at. Eg; I may search for Static IP Address, find
a tiddler that mentions their use and is tagged security, open the Security
tag/tiddler and review that list to find "Using Static Routes" (for
Security).

Now if you feel a title is no longer valid copy the old title into the text
so if you searched for it again you would find it, then modify the title.

Regards
Tony
Post by Brady77
I spent some time with the uni-link plugin to see how it works for me.
First I have to say that it is very close to be a good workaround for
"broken links" problem. I have a couple of questions.
1. In the advanced search
- Can I use caption / subtitle values in the standard search tab?
- Is it possible to display the results from the filter as a list
of captions / subtitles?
2. I tried your "stant-01" theme as well.
- Is possible in the edit mode to show the tiddler title as a field
at the bottom and hide it at the top?
@ Mark.S
Point 2 is probably close to what you have mentioned earlier as well.
@ TonyM
Thanks for offering your help as well. I'm building my personal knowledge
base to so I can be more effective at my job. I work as an network engineer
and I'm dealing with quite complex information. Partly I have to deeply
understand some networking topics, partly to remember some workflows
(tutorials, how-tos, guides etc.). This knowledge changes quite often as
the technology evolves and so I need my tiddlers to reflect those changes
as well. This is especially true while studying something new: at the
beginning I decide for a name of tiddler and later I realize that this name
is completely wrong (just becase I knew almost nothing about the topic at
the beginning). To put it simple: I need some flexibility to only at
modifying the text field, but also by naming the tiddlers. I can certainly
live with the uni-link plugin regarding the "broken-links" problem. But
there are some important functions that lack the support for captions /
subtitles (see my questions at the beginning). So we can discuss it further.
@Jeremy Ruston
Hi Jeremy!
What problem does it solve? Maybe some example will help. Thanks.
2. Can you compare the difficulty of
- preparing a new release of TiddlyWiki that deals with tiddlers
(and other building blocks) as objects that can be referenced independently
on the user text-fields? Same functionality as I mentioned above while
talking about Airtable interface.
- fixing broken links and functions (filters, lists, macros etc) on
the fly after the tiddler ID changed
3. Could you explain in more detail what is the difference between
changing tiddler title and tag name? What if I use a tiddler as a tag?
Thank you.
Petr
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Brady77
2018-04-21 12:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tony,

TonyM wrote:

I am confident it is only if you use [[embedded links]] or
Post by TonyM
{{transclusions}} that you are likely to come across this problem because
you can rename titles with no loss.
Yes, you are right. Those are the critical spots.
Post by TonyM
A Common technique I use is the new here so lets say you have a "Security"
subject, go to the Security tiddler and go new here to add security items,
or tag them with Security. By always having a tag of the "parent" tiddler
at a minimum you will always be able to list items so tagged. Renaming them
changes nothing, except if they are listed in alphabetical order. You can
also use the list field and a drag-able list such as a dragable table of
Contents. Most of the time I access technical info I first search "titles"
and "Text" then open even a related tiddler, then use the tags to refine
the tiddlers I am looking at. Eg; I may search for Static IP Address, find
a tiddler that mentions their use and is tagged security, open the Security
tag/tiddler and review that list to find "Using Static Routes" (for
Security).
What you proposed here is actually the main reason why I decided to open
the Faceted search
<https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/cmSaSUFT01w/discussion>
thread. We had a fruitful discussion with other members on this topic -
which will hopefully lead to some improvements as well. I feel that both
the links and tags create the best context for me. Thank you for your hints
and inspiration.

Petr
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PMario
2018-04-20 13:51:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi folks,
Very interesting discussion going on.

@Brady
Sorry for being silent even if directly mentioned. ... But I think some of
your early questions about uni-link have been answered by others, in the
same way, as I would have done it. ..

The tiddler.title discussion isn't new. If you search for UUID in this
group you'll get discussions dating back to 2011, where TiddlyWiki 5 wasn't
born yet :) (Click this link
<https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!searchin/tiddlywiki/uuid%7Csort:date>
and scroll down)

I have been involved in most of them, so I thought, I'll shut up this time
and see what's going on.

There is only one (short) thread that I want to point out: Federated wiki
and tw
<https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!searchin/tiddlywiki/uuid|sort:date/tiddlywiki/1PRWJCD2zg8/oHQRB3i6KygJ>

Especially Jeremy's last post, which I'll quote here, because I like his
consistency over the years :)
For what it's worth, my take on tiddler GUIDs is to acknowledge that
they are sometimes useful, but note that it is already possible to use
a GUID string as the title for tiddlers, and that GUIDed tiddlers can
co-exist with ordinary tiddlers. We can work around the lack of a
human readable title by, say, adopting the convention of a "display
title" field.
Cheers
Jeremy
more replies will follow.

-mario
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PMario
2018-04-20 14:24:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by PMario
...
Especially Jeremy's last post, which I'll quote here, because I like his
consistency over the years :)
... We can work around the lack of a
human readable title by, say, adopting the convention of a "display
title" field.
I used "subtitle" as a name, because I think it "naturally" fits, for this
usecase. I thought if a Wiki can have a Subtitle. A tiddler can have one
too ;)

-m
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PMario
2018-04-20 14:11:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brady77
I spent some time with the uni-link plugin to see how it works for me.
good.
Post by Brady77
First I have to say that it is very close to be a good workaround for
"broken links" problem.
It was developed and introduced
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/tiddlywiki/%5Bintro%5D%7Csort:date/tiddlywiki/pVqcVuNaTbA/BXuqQlK0CwAJ>for
this type of problems.
A bit of development history: Globally changing internal links to display
caption text if possible
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/Z7dRU3HrzSs>? (only
click it if you have time)
Post by Brady77
I have a couple of questions.
1. In the advanced search
- Can I use caption / subtitle values in the standard search tab?
Not atm. .. But it should be easy to implement. ... That's 1 reason I
wrote "partially" in my first reply. ...
Post by Brady77
- Is it possible to display the results from the filter as a list of
captions / subtitles?
Yes, ... Someone would need to create it. ... 1 more reason, why I think
uni-link plugin isn't ripe for the core .... yet ;)
Post by Brady77
1. I tried your "stant-01" theme as well.
- Is possible in the edit mode to show the tiddler title as a field
at the bottom and hide it at the top?
Sure. It's an opinionated theme already. .... You would just need to open:
the tags/EditTemplate
<https://wikilabs.github.io/#%24%3A%2Ftags%2FEditTemplate> tiddler and
modify the list field. Move the second element to the end of the list. ....
BUT ... It looks strange. IMO some more UI tweaking would be needed.

have fun!
mario
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-18 15:10:33 UTC
Permalink
If you're going to fix the problem with macros, then you could just create
your own ID field with a regular distinct pattern ("A0001","A0002",ktc)

Then use a macro like (though more sophisticated than):

\define link(id desc) <$list
filter="[search:id[$id$]limit[1]]"><$link>$desc$</$link></$list>

And make your references like <<link "A0001" "Notes re comparison Disc
World and Moby Dick">>

Of course, then you have to remember to assign a unique id to anything that
you plan to link to.

-- Mark
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TonyM
2018-04-19 22:00:42 UTC
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Mark,

I was thinking along those lines as well, I love an algorithmic challenge.

Some thoughts

In addition to your suggestion a "New Tiddler macro" or current tiddler
"set ID" that assigns an ID in an additional field at *creation time* (see
alternate below) could be used when and only when a tiddler needs to be
referenced.

An Edit toolbar helper like the current insert {{-}} or [[-]] or excise
tool that inserts the <<link ID#>> from the *selected* tiddler name would
also make this almost transparent.

I just realised we already have and almost certainly unique identifier -
creation date. On Creation, or before using as a link Extract that to the
millisecond check no other tiddler exists with the same creation date (very
unlikely with milliseconds) but if something else does just add 1
millisecond until you find a unique creation date. Creation dates as a rule
stay the same from that point forward, even when dragged to another Wiki.
We can use this as the ID for references. Simply add a field to indicate a
database name if the plan is to copy move to other wikis, and add this to
the ID

Regards
Tony
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
If you're going to fix the problem with macros, then you could just create
your own ID field with a regular distinct pattern ("A0001","A0002",ktc)
\define link(id desc) <$list
filter="[search:id[$id$]limit[1]]"><$link>$desc$</$link></$list>
And make your references like <<link "A0001" "Notes re comparison Disc
World and Moby Dick">>
Of course, then you have to remember to assign a unique id to anything
that you plan to link to.
-- Mark
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Brady77
2018-04-21 12:28:49 UTC
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@PMario
Thank you Mario for all your comments and your plugin. To add a quick note:
searching and filtering seem the most critical, now. There is no workaround
I can imagine that can help here without touching the code. Don't know
about transclusions since I don't use them yet.

Can I (as non-coder) be of any help here? I doubt, but let me know.

Petr
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