Discussion:
[tw5] [TW5] A quick question to gauge interest
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Jed Carty
2018-04-28 17:25:29 UTC
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I am going to change the name of the multiuser plugin because it outgrew
that name a few months ago and it is probably leading to more confusion
about what the plugin does than anything else.

While I am doing this I am trying to decide if I should split it up into
separate plugins or not. This is probably going to be a more involved
process than I had hoped, and since tiddlywiki doesn't have a robust plugin
dependency system in place it may be a bit of an annoyance to use because
of how the plugins would depend on each other.

So instead of just pushing forward and doing a lot of work splitting up the
plugin I am going to ask:

Does anyone who would use the plugin not want the full functionality?

At the moment it can:

- Serve multiple wikis
- Have two-way (almost) immediate updates when a tiddler is edited either
in a browser or on the server
- Support multiple people editing the same wiki at the same time
- Convert an html wiki into a new node-based wiki and export a node based
wiki as an html wiki (this function is a bit rough still, but eventually it
should let you go mostly seemlessly from a single file to node and back)

It does most of this using websockets so there is a server command that
uses the web socket adaptor and an external server command that lets you
use an external server (like an expressjs server) which makes
authentication and access controls much simpler. (I am going to have a
publicly accessible demo of the multi-user wiki setup sometime soon, shh!
it's a secret.)
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HansWobbe
2018-04-28 18:22:54 UTC
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Jed:

Personally, I am very happy with the full functionality of this excellent
plugin. I do not use all of its capabilities yet, but the overhead doe not
seem significant to me, so I prefer to know its all there for the next time
I want to expand my uses.

Thank you very much for the tiem and effort you've put into this too !!

Best regards,
Hans!
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Mat
2018-04-28 18:55:57 UTC
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@Jed,

1) You don't state what a split up would result in.
2) If there is a split up into separately parts that could be independently
(and meaningfully) used AND that don't rely on the same infrastructure,
then such a split up would make sense. For example, if some of the
functionality depends on a connected network but other functionality does
not, then that seems like a desirable split up. (E.g that last feature
doesn't seem to have anything directly to do with multiuserability.)

<:-)
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Jed Carty
2018-04-28 19:04:39 UTC
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Not much about the plugin now is about multiuserability, that is why I am
changing the name. It can be used by multiple people but my main use for it
is to have the wikis open on multiple computers and not have to worry about
losing my edits. The name seems to make people assume that it is only
worthwhile if you have multiple people using the wiki.

There were a few comments from different threads like 'if you split out the
web socket part of this I would use it', but no one said more than that. So
I could make a web socket plugin but I don't have anything other than this
that it would be used for.

Converting the wikis between single file and node versions fits with
everything else the plugin does, which is make the wikis more portable,
either in the sense of putting everything on a usb stick and carrying it
around or in the sense of being able to edit the wikis from any browser you
want or converting between single file and node versions as needed.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-28 19:29:55 UTC
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Just curious. Why did someone want to split out the web socket part?

-- Mark
Post by Jed Carty
Not much about the plugin now is about multiuserability, that is why I am
changing the name. It can be used by multiple people but my main use for it
is to have the wikis open on multiple computers and not have to worry about
losing my edits. The name seems to make people assume that it is only
worthwhile if you have multiple people using the wiki.
There were a few comments from different threads like 'if you split out
the web socket part of this I would use it', but no one said more than
that. So I could make a web socket plugin but I don't have anything other
than this that it would be used for.
Converting the wikis between single file and node versions fits with
everything else the plugin does, which is make the wikis more portable,
either in the sense of putting everything on a usb stick and carrying it
around or in the sense of being able to edit the wikis from any browser you
want or converting between single file and node versions as needed.
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Mat
2018-04-28 20:32:34 UTC
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Post by Jed Carty
Not much about the plugin now is about multiuserability, that is why I am
changing the name. It can be used by multiple people but my main use for it
is to have the wikis open on multiple computers and not have to worry about
losing my edits. The name seems to make people assume that it is only
worthwhile if you have multiple people using the wiki.
Aha... I just realized am one of those presumptuous ones! Maybe it could be
called a "Multi-computer TiddlyWiki" leaving the interpretation of the name
to the user who is likely colored by what he needs!

Converting the wikis between single file and node versions fits with
Post by Jed Carty
everything else the plugin does, which is make the wikis more portable,
either in the sense of putting everything on a usb stick and carrying it
around or in the sense of being able to edit the wikis from any browser you
want or converting between single file and node versions as needed.
Now *that *functionality does sound like a valuable stand-alone plugin
though! It would probably lower the threshold to try out the node version
because you could convert your regular (single file) TW as you try out node
and if you're not happy then you can switch back but without loosing work
you've done while in node. To name just one example.

<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-28 22:50:04 UTC
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Post by Mat
Aha... I just realized am one of those presumptuous ones! Maybe it could
be called a "Multi-computer TiddlyWiki" leaving the interpretation of the
name to the user who is likely colored by what he needs!
Or go for the gusto -- "Universal TiddlyWiki"

-- Mark
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-04-29 11:52:51 UTC
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Ciao Jed

Regarding possible modularisation via plugins.

Well, it works well as is. The performance is good.

But there is one thing that is brilliant about it that maybe could be done
a different way? At the moment you include the great feature to select
template TW to create new TW. At the moment the "libraries" for that are
inside the executable. Right?

Could the structure for that be external to the executable so that end
users could add their own without needing to compile them?

Maybe facility for that could be a plugin -- i.e. to extend function?

Best wishes
Josiah
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Jed Carty
2018-04-28 19:38:28 UTC
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I don't know, I don't remember which thread it was in but someone mentioned
being interested if I split it out.

I may have been to make a git plugin.
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Jed Carty
2018-04-28 23:17:06 UTC
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I am probably going to go with a name that isn't descriptive to just avoid
the problem. I am leaning toward TiddlyFoule because it is seems like it
could be descriptive without actually telling you anything about what it
does.

And the question about splitting it up is probably most meaningful in terms
of if there is some reason to not have all the functionality available.
Like Hans said, there is no reason to use all of it if you don't need it.
Would it be better to just have the conversion between single file and html
wikis and not immediately save your changes for some reason?
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TonyM
2018-04-29 05:18:38 UTC
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Jed,

Perhaps calling it multi-access tiddlywiki would address both multi-session
and multi-user. I have not yet driven a multi-user version out to multiple
users at once but I do believe this is a major advance of your solution and
something TiddlyWiki is crying out for. It will take time for people to
host it perhaps on "server" devices, within docker or on some internet
platforms (I plan to make my mac-mini or synology disk-station host it) but
I expect in time a lot of people will be looking for multi-user tiddlywiki
as well. Historically many have asked for such features. The key use you
point out, multi-session (browsers) is also revolutionary but also the
fastest to use "use case".

I am still trying to get the multi-wiki through your solution working
smoothly, develop a work flow for it, then I plan to migrate more than half
a dozen wikis into it.

Multi-access, even if is is a tag line you use should encourage both
multi-session and multi-user curious people to it.

On dividing it into plugins, perhaps you should plan to separate out the
websockets in the long run as it seems to be offering an infrastructure
solution for other developer solutions like messaging and inter-wiki
communications. This does not mean you need to maintain or publish the
websockets component separately from your solution, only keep it up your
sleeve for other developers or yourself to reuse. In effect I am suggesting
there is value in providing a web-sockets solution separately but no need
to divide your multi-access solution into components, perhaps only in the
distant future when multiple solutions depend on websockets.

Thanks for this work and the single file install, they are revolutionary,
and revolutions take time to play out.

Regards
Tony
Post by Jed Carty
I am probably going to go with a name that isn't descriptive to just avoid
the problem. I am leaning toward TiddlyFoule because it is seems like it
could be descriptive without actually telling you anything about what it
does.
And the question about splitting it up is probably most meaningful in
terms of if there is some reason to not have all the functionality
available. Like Hans said, there is no reason to use all of it if you don't
need it. Would it be better to just have the conversion between single file
and html wikis and not immediately save your changes for some reason?
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Mat
2018-04-29 08:34:47 UTC
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TiddlyFoule because it is seems like it could be descriptive without
actually telling you anything about what it does.
What does "foule" mean? I can't find it in the dictionaries. But I do know
what "foul" means and that would be an odd choice. (Sorry if I'm missing
some irony or joke?)

Tonys "Multi-access" suggestion is good IMO.
Would it be better to just have the conversion between single file and
html wikis and not immediately save your changes for some reason?
(Assuming you mean conversion between "single file and multi file".) Sure,
if that is possible without having to immediately save it then that is even
better!

<:-)
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PMario
2018-04-29 10:10:31 UTC
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TiddlyFoule because it is seems like it could be descriptive without
actually telling you anything about what it does.
What does "foule" mean? I can't find it in the dictionaries. But I do know
what "foul" means and that would be an odd choice. (Sorry if I'm missing
some irony or joke?)
Hi Jed,

IMO that would be a bad choice. For German speaking users the first
impression would be english: "foul" or german:"faul" or even "verfault"
which means rotten.

Both wouldn't make much sense at all.

-m
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Jed Carty
2018-04-29 09:18:40 UTC
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It is the french word for mob or crowd in the sense of a group of people.
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TonyM
2018-04-29 09:44:34 UTC
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Jed,

Foul bird or chicken or often used with the word smell. The drains smell foul.

Dont use tiddlyfoule is my firm advice, something about it is very smelly.

;-)
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BurningTreeC
2018-04-29 09:40:43 UTC
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Hi Jed,

I got a name idea:


iTW©
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Ste Wilson
2018-04-29 09:46:01 UTC
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Or.. To recycle a joke from Grand Theft Auto... iTW-@T
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Jed Carty
2018-04-29 11:51:10 UTC
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Maybe I will just go with english and call it TiddlyMob. I am feeling very
against descriptive names at the moment.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-04-29 12:11:59 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Jed
Post by Jed Carty
Maybe I will just go with english and call it TiddlyMob. I am feeling very
against descriptive names at the moment.
IMO French is great for words that evoke aspects of creative endeavour with
more than mechanical resonance. That hint at scope rather than at
description. Its unfortunate that "foule" ("crowd" / "a variety of things")
can't work in English because the look of it and sound of it. But many
superb French words do work in English too.

I commented before that "Bricolage" & "Bricoleur" (roughly = "DIY" &
"DIY-er", though in French it has much deeper resonances) are a very good
fit for what TW is in general. In some cases "Glanant" & "Glaneur" (gleaner
& gleaning) also applies.

In general, to avoid the issues of descriptive "blobs" in English, one can
often use activity rather than statis -- so its not TW, its TW-ing. You get
the idea?

I'll write separately about how I myself think about "Multi-user" et al.

Just thoughts
Josiah
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-04-29 12:51:18 UTC
Permalink
Quick note ...

I would not use "Mob" because of its strong association with smart-phone
only use ... as in Flash-Mobs

Just a thought
Josiah
Post by Jed Carty
Maybe I will just go with english and call it TiddlyMob. I am feeling very
against descriptive names at the moment.
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Jed Carty
2018-04-29 12:06:53 UTC
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At the moment I am talking about the plugin, packaging everything into a
single file is a different part. And it can be setup to point to editions
somewhere else. That is just a configuration option.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-04-29 12:39:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jed Carty
At the moment I am talking about the plugin, packaging everything into a
single file is a different part. And it can be setup to point to editions
somewhere else. That is just a configuration option.
Ciao Jed

Thanks for that. FYI I truly have no grasp of what is under the hood or how
the scope of a plugin is decided. But I think its better I say something
than nothing. I don't mind being an idiot :-).

Josiah
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-04-29 13:09:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jed Carty
I am going to change the name of the multiuser plugin because it outgrew
that name a few months ago and it is probably leading to more confusion
about what the plugin does than anything else.
Its a wonderful thing you made.

I'm using it. What do I find critically useful?

-- Proper Portability

-- Wrap-ability (meaning, I can install it, add TW that are portably
addressed, re-wrap it in a zip and send it to another knowing it will work
exactly the same. I have done that & it worked.)

-- Honed scripting??? Though I don't understand how you do it its apparent
to me that you are using some internal scripting that normally you'd type
that a console? IF so that opens many doors for end-users who don't want to
know about node commands.

-- Reliability. Its been dead stable.

-- Networkable. (I'm assuming this is the central bit of what was called
"multi-user"). It works. I have it available in the kitchen on a tablet and
in the computer room on a desktop. It works.

If you ask me to say what overall I think its features are ... Portable,
Networkable TW.

Best wishes
Josiah
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Jed Carty
2018-04-29 13:53:06 UTC
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Ok, the new name may just be Bob.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-04-29 13:55:06 UTC
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Lol. I think "Bob" might work :-).
Post by Jed Carty
Ok, the new name may just be Bob.
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Birthe C
2018-04-29 14:16:21 UTC
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You made it sound so great. Maybe you could explain to me in simple words,
please, what I need to use it and how?

Birthe
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Lol. I think "Bob" might work :-).
Post by Jed Carty
Ok, the new name may just be Bob.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-04-29 14:25:35 UTC
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Birthe

This as much for Jed as for you. Your question is a good one.

Outstanding for me is its an Easy Self-Contained Solution.

Its easy to install. Its easy over network. Its easy to make portable.
Saving in it is built in. Once you make the install you are ready to get on
with things. How do you get that in one word?
Post by Birthe C
You made it sound so great. Maybe you could explain to me in simple words,
please, what I need to use it and how?
Birthe
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Lol. I think "Bob" might work :-).
Post by Jed Carty
Ok, the new name may just be Bob.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-04-29 15:17:58 UTC
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Is this a reference to "We Are Legion (We Are Bob)" ?

That would make sense -- Bob is/was the ultimate example of a
multi-instance entity.

-- Mark
Post by Jed Carty
Ok, the new name may just be Bob.
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Mat
2018-04-29 15:27:44 UTC
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Post by Jed Carty
Ok, the new name may just be Bob.
Why it's Jeds *Foul Bob Mob* plugin. It should be obvious what this plugin
does.

<:-)
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Jed Carty
2018-04-29 15:59:46 UTC
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Bob because it is completely non-descriptive.

But I like Mat's idea of Foul Bob Mob.
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Mat
2018-04-29 21:34:37 UTC
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@Jed, how - if at all - can your creation be used by the whole community to
collectively edit a TW? What would be required for this?

(sorry if hijacking your thread but I didn't know what to call your
creation so figured it might be OK in this thread after all)

<:-)
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Jed Carty
2018-04-29 22:31:59 UTC
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@Mat

I am working on it. I have had this working on a digital ocean droplet for
the past few weeks that we have been using. The last line from the original
post about a publicly accessible demo is the first step toward what you are
talking about. It uses custom server code that takes care of the
authentication and login instead of the tiddlywiki server, but it should be
scalable.

It would need a server that can run node and a certificate for the https,
something like a digital ocean droplet would probably work.
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HansWobbe
2018-04-30 21:25:34 UTC
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Jed:

Can you estimate what level our community would need to start at with
https://www.digitalocean.com/pricing/ ?

For that matter, can I (as an individual) set up a $5/month account tnad
then easily interact with other individuals?

I'm currently managing a large Azure platform and the complexity is
daunting. If this is easier, I may at least be able to seed it.


Cheers,
Hans
Post by Jed Carty
@Mat
I am working on it. I have had this working on a digital ocean droplet for
the past few weeks that we have been using. The last line from the original
post about a publicly accessible demo is the first step toward what you are
talking about. It uses custom server code that takes care of the
authentication and login instead of the tiddlywiki server, but it should be
scalable.
It would need a server that can run node and a certificate for the https,
something like a digital ocean droplet would probably work.
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Jed Carty
2018-05-01 07:58:54 UTC
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I don't have anything concrete to base an estimate on.

I have my little pie server on a raspberry pi 3 that has no trouble serving
15 or 20 wikis for just me running along side a git server and some other
custom things.

The server that we are using for the OokTech wikis (not the ones hosted on
ooktech.com, it isn't publicly available) is about equivalent to the
$5/month tier and it has been working fine, but it hasn't gotten any heavy
use.

If the shared wiki system got about the same use as the google group than
it would probably fit onto the smallest server but I am not certain.

The biggest piece that is currently missing is management tools. The
built-in tiddlywiki webserver has no access or authentication controls.

The server I made for ooktech has authentication controls for login and
different access levels so you can set which wikis a person can see and for
individual levels you can set if a person can edit the wiki or just view it
and if a person can do administrative tasks like adding new people or new
wikis. But so far the interface for all setting that up is editing json
files directly. I have been trying to improve it when I have time.
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Ed
2018-05-02 11:28:31 UTC
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Hi Jed,

Since your introduction of your special TW I havve been reading about it
and yesterday
I decided to try it out.

(Low whistle) Marvelous piece of programming! I used tiddlyWin.exe. Within
split-second
a TW opened on my screen. it took some experimenting and correcting some
mistake
I made with the adress characters and it wasn''t at first clear to me how
the ports worked,
but I can now access the stuff via another computer.

That is great as I have been pushing (to no vail so far) some colleagues to
try out TW5.
The whole FireFox apocalypse made it impossible, as these solutions seem a
bridge to
far for them, but now it is easy as pie, just type in the series of numbers
and presto
there it is.

So thank you so much for programming this!!
Salut! Edm.
BTW
Great walk with Robbie autour du Basilica Sainte Clotilde in Paris (with
that famous organ)!
Post by Jed Carty
I am going to change the name of the multiuser plugin because it outgrew
that name a few months ago and it is probably leading to more confusion
about what the plugin does than anything else.
While I am doing this I am trying to decide if I should split it up into
separate plugins or not. This is probably going to be a more involved
process than I had hoped, and since tiddlywiki doesn't have a robust plugin
dependency system in place it may be a bit of an annoyance to use because
of how the plugins would depend on each other.
So instead of just pushing forward and doing a lot of work splitting up
Does anyone who would use the plugin not want the full functionality?
- Serve multiple wikis
- Have two-way (almost) immediate updates when a tiddler is edited either
in a browser or on the server
- Support multiple people editing the same wiki at the same time
- Convert an html wiki into a new node-based wiki and export a node based
wiki as an html wiki (this function is a bit rough still, but eventually it
should let you go mostly seemlessly from a single file to node and back)
It does most of this using websockets so there is a server command that
uses the web socket adaptor and an external server command that lets you
use an external server (like an expressjs server) which makes
authentication and access controls much simpler. (I am going to have a
publicly accessible demo of the multi-user wiki setup sometime soon, shh!
it's a secret.)
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