Discussion:
[tw] Conveying: Moans about poor documentation
Josiah
2016-11-30 16:36:44 UTC
Permalink
Ciao tutti

In the last two weeks I've had extensive private correspondence with three
folk over on Twitter who want to know where to find the "real
documentation" for TiddlyWiki. After pointing to what documentation there
is I suggested they ask in the group on specific things they want to do.

If I hadn't engaged in that discussion with them I would never have know
there are potential users who are likely passing on from not being able to
grasp enough quickly enough to be able to utilise TW well.

I think its a problem (for them at least) as is.

Just saying ...
Josiah
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2016-11-30 17:56:14 UTC
Permalink
What were they trying to do?

The documentation for basic functionality seems to be right there. But it
does require people understand a bit about downloading, file structure (to
find the downloaded file), and browser plugins. Web-based solutions don't
require that knowledge, but then they can't operate off-line either.

The documentation for more advanced topics, on the other hand, is scattered
throughout TiddlyWiki.com and not nearly as accessible.

Mark
Post by Josiah
Ciao tutti
In the last two weeks I've had extensive private correspondence with three
folk over on Twitter who want to know where to find the "real
documentation" for TiddlyWiki. After pointing to what documentation there
is I suggested they ask in the group on specific things they want to do.
If I hadn't engaged in that discussion with them I would never have know
there are potential users who are likely passing on from not being able to
grasp enough quickly enough to be able to utilise TW well.
I think its a problem (for them at least) as is.
Just saying ...
Josiah
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Josiah
2016-11-30 18:24:44 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Mark

The queries fell between two stools. On the one hand they have looked at
the basic docs, on the other finding the Google Group a bit too much. Given
that majority of people looking on Twitter for #TiddlyWiki are mostly
techies, these 3 were no exception. I think that is interesting in itself.
To give an example of a question I could not answer without referring to
here: "How do you append to a list a title with spaces using a text
reference?"

Obviously their question needs to be opened up more but its pretty good IMO
to construct that question when you have no documentation at that level to
refer to.

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
What were they trying to do?
The documentation for basic functionality seems to be right there. But it
does require people understand a bit about downloading, file structure (to
find the downloaded file), and browser plugins. Web-based solutions don't
require that knowledge, but then they can't operate off-line either.
The documentation for more advanced topics, on the other hand, is
scattered throughout TiddlyWiki.com and not nearly as accessible.
Mark
Post by Josiah
Ciao tutti
In the last two weeks I've had extensive private correspondence with
three folk over on Twitter who want to know where to find the "real
documentation" for TiddlyWiki. After pointing to what documentation there
is I suggested they ask in the group on specific things they want to do.
If I hadn't engaged in that discussion with them I would never have know
there are potential users who are likely passing on from not being able to
grasp enough quickly enough to be able to utilise TW well.
I think its a problem (for them at least) as is.
Just saying ...
Josiah
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2016-11-30 18:44:07 UTC
Permalink
That's not a basic question -- somebody that's been working with lists and
filters for awhile would have to cook up a response. It's not something
someone would even consider asking in say, MediaWiki or Evernote.

It's like buying a book on first aid and complaining that there's no
chapter on removing kidneys.

Mark
Post by Josiah
Ciao Mark
The queries fell between two stools. On the one hand they have looked at
the basic docs, on the other finding the Google Group a bit too much. Given
that majority of people looking on Twitter for #TiddlyWiki are mostly
techies, these 3 were no exception. I think that is interesting in itself.
To give an example of a question I could not answer without referring to
here: "How do you append to a list a title with spaces using a text
reference?"
Obviously their question needs to be opened up more but its pretty good
IMO to construct that question when you have no documentation at that level
to refer to.
Best wishes
Josiah
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
What were they trying to do?
The documentation for basic functionality seems to be right there. But it
does require people understand a bit about downloading, file structure (to
find the downloaded file), and browser plugins. Web-based solutions don't
require that knowledge, but then they can't operate off-line either.
The documentation for more advanced topics, on the other hand, is
scattered throughout TiddlyWiki.com and not nearly as accessible.
Mark
Post by Josiah
Ciao tutti
In the last two weeks I've had extensive private correspondence with
three folk over on Twitter who want to know where to find the "real
documentation" for TiddlyWiki. After pointing to what documentation there
is I suggested they ask in the group on specific things they want to do.
If I hadn't engaged in that discussion with them I would never have know
there are potential users who are likely passing on from not being able to
grasp enough quickly enough to be able to utilise TW well.
I think its a problem (for them at least) as is.
Just saying ...
Josiah
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Josiah
2016-11-30 19:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Mark

You are right, its NOT a basic question. That is the point. But it is a
question. A question that is falling between two stools from lack of
documentation IMO.

Its NOT like complaining the first aid book lacks kidney removals. Its much
more like it lacked advice on basic suturing.

IMO these cases are illuminative, not to be dismissed so quickly.

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
That's not a basic question -- somebody that's been working with lists and
filters for awhile would have to cook up a response. It's not something
someone would even consider asking in say, MediaWiki or Evernote.
It's like buying a book on first aid and complaining that there's no
chapter on removing kidneys.
Mark
Post by Josiah
Ciao Mark
The queries fell between two stools. On the one hand they have looked at
the basic docs, on the other finding the Google Group a bit too much. Given
that majority of people looking on Twitter for #TiddlyWiki are mostly
techies, these 3 were no exception. I think that is interesting in itself.
To give an example of a question I could not answer without referring to
here: "How do you append to a list a title with spaces using a text
reference?"
Obviously their question needs to be opened up more but its pretty good
IMO to construct that question when you have no documentation at that level
to refer to.
Best wishes
Josiah
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
What were they trying to do?
The documentation for basic functionality seems to be right there. But
it does require people understand a bit about downloading, file structure
(to find the downloaded file), and browser plugins. Web-based solutions
don't require that knowledge, but then they can't operate off-line either.
The documentation for more advanced topics, on the other hand, is
scattered throughout TiddlyWiki.com and not nearly as accessible.
Mark
Post by Josiah
Ciao tutti
In the last two weeks I've had extensive private correspondence with
three folk over on Twitter who want to know where to find the "real
documentation" for TiddlyWiki. After pointing to what documentation there
is I suggested they ask in the group on specific things they want to do.
If I hadn't engaged in that discussion with them I would never have
know there are potential users who are likely passing on from not being
able to grasp enough quickly enough to be able to utilise TW well.
I think its a problem (for them at least) as is.
Just saying ...
Josiah
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PMario
2016-11-30 22:52:16 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 at 7:24:44 PM UTC+1, Josiah wrote:

.. To give an example of a question I could not answer without referring to
Post by Josiah
here: "How do you append to a list a title with spaces using a text
reference?"
If they did as for text reference. IMO a search would have told them:
http://tiddlywiki.com/#TextReference

-m
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Riz
2016-11-30 17:59:07 UTC
Permalink
+1 for the question.
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Riz
2016-12-01 07:28:57 UTC
Permalink
Ok, so this is a post I have been planning to make for long. Wear your
seat-belts.

Obligatory warning: The following comments are made out of a sincere desire
to see this platform getting better and appealing to more people. Remember
that I have no personal gains from writing this.

The thread is missing the point of Josiah's post. The need for a
co-ordinated effort to create community documentation.

| It's like buying a book on first aid and complaining that there's no
chapter on removing kidneys.

TW5's competition is not evernote. People look for Tiddlywiki when they
already left behind evernote and are looking for alternatives. So from the
scores of alternatives available, why would one choose TW5?

TW5 as a first aid solution is not the main part of its charm. We have to
admit its limitations compared to the competing solutions. Saving for one.
Telling people you can use this as a single page html anywhere is
wonderful, as long as you have firefox and a plugin is not equally so. The
impending death of Tiddlychrome will be effectively ruling out SPA use in
Chrome unless you are game to put up with a less pleasing user experience.

Also to be mentioned is the inability to use javascript. I understand that
there are hurdles wrt security (not really, but for the sake of this post,
let us pretend that I understand.). Nevertheless this is a disadvantage a
lot of other wikis do not have. [Meanwhile if I use a TW just in my
computer in the HTML format without having to worry about security, can I
enable the js scripts? There are a lot of awesome js scripts out there and
waiting for someone to adapt those to TW undermines the whole
standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants approach. Enablejs plugin is not
working,:-( ]

If people wanted a simple note taking wiki, they could use zim or Raneto
or even wordpress, and for extensive purposes there are bigger projects
like foswiki or Xwiki or Twiki.

As someone who spend quite some time testing several solutions listed in
wikimatrix.com, I can say this with a level of confidence that the
advantage of TW5 is its flexibility. It gives you a scalpel that can cut
out a make a simple slash or remove the kidney (enough with the medical
analogies. That would be the last one.)

However, while TW5 shows you the sky, it currently fails you give you
enough wings (told you, no more medical analogies). The other day I was
looking for a solution to export a list to a text file. The text file would
show up with the content <$list filter="[tag[HelloThere]]"/> - which is
obviously not what I wanted. I am not ego-centric enough to believe that I
am the first one to have this question. Someone might have, and he would
have found a solution. It might be even in this group, I just have to spend
20-25 mins trying to sift through the chaff and get to the solution. Of
course you can ask the group, you people will graciously put in time and
effort to answer. Nevertheless, having to ask such a possibly simple
question, over and over again is a dehumanizing experience. Not a whole lot
will subscribe to that.

This is the point where I have this question: Why is Tiddlyverse so averse
to the idea of setting up an organized community documentation?

Jeremy Ruston is a single human being who has as much time as any of us.
Besides being the main developer of TW5 which he does not use to earn his
bread, expecting him to take point on documentation and creating tutorials
is seriously unfair.
It has been quite some time since Erwan outlined a commendable model for
TW5 documentation and Mat raised the issue in an earnest manner. Has there
been much progress since then? The Wikidocs group is dead and dry as, well,
whatever is dead and dry.

Now here is a couple of proposals.
1. Create a mediawiki to document TW5. (gasp, audible murmurs and
chattering of pitchforks). TW5 is not supporting collaborative editing and
user approval as of now. It was not intended for such an aim if I
understand it correctly. That being so, there is no harm or shame in using
other services. The approved users can create documentation which will
remove the burden from a single person. There are services that will host a
mediawiki for free.
2. Create something of the nature of Tiddlydrive where users can simply
submit a plain text write-up which will be incorporated to the wiki after
being reviewed by a subgroup of moderators. This actually is more demanding
than the first option, but it has the advantage that people does not have
to learn to clone-commit-push-and-pull.

Documentation is tough to come by. Demanding that a user should learn the
ways of github which is not the most user-friendly solutions, is akin to
actively discouraging the user submissions except from a niche. There are
scores of cases, examples, tweaks and customisations that has no place in
the official website. Nor is its place scattered in a 100 different TWs or
1000 different posts.

sincerely
Someone who took 2 months to realize that you can actually change the color
of site title.

PS: For those who put up with the long read, here is a JSON. It will set
your sidebar search field to only activate the search upon pressing enter
key. Will help if you have a large wiki and do not want to reload the
search with every keystroke.
--
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2016-12-01 15:45:49 UTC
Permalink
I think a MediaWiki or similar solution would be a great thing. MediaWiki
has a listing of MW sites available, including at least one that says its
free and add-free (but who knows what the details are?). Other sites are
fairly inexpensive if data can be kept under 10G.

The question is, is all the stuff currently in TiddlyWiki now technically
copyrighted, or can it be ported to another working environment?

The current system of documentation discourages participation. I've written
documentation and tutorials for other products, and wouldn't mind doing so
for TW, but not tethered the way the current system is.

Mark
Post by Riz
Ok, so this is a post I have been planning to make for long. Wear your
seat-belts.
Obligatory warning: The following comments are made out of a sincere
desire to see this platform getting better and appealing to more people.
Remember that I have no personal gains from writing this.
The thread is missing the point of Josiah's post. The need for a
co-ordinated effort to create community documentation.
| It's like buying a book on first aid and complaining that there's no
chapter on removing kidneys.
TW5's competition is not evernote. People look for Tiddlywiki when they
already left behind evernote and are looking for alternatives. So from the
scores of alternatives available, why would one choose TW5?
TW5 as a first aid solution is not the main part of its charm. We have to
admit its limitations compared to the competing solutions. Saving for one.
Telling people you can use this as a single page html anywhere is
wonderful, as long as you have firefox and a plugin is not equally so. The
impending death of Tiddlychrome will be effectively ruling out SPA use in
Chrome unless you are game to put up with a less pleasing user experience.
Also to be mentioned is the inability to use javascript. I understand that
there are hurdles wrt security (not really, but for the sake of this post,
let us pretend that I understand.). Nevertheless this is a disadvantage a
lot of other wikis do not have. [Meanwhile if I use a TW just in my
computer in the HTML format without having to worry about security, can I
enable the js scripts? There are a lot of awesome js scripts out there and
waiting for someone to adapt those to TW undermines the whole
standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants approach. Enablejs plugin is not
working,:-( ]
If people wanted a simple note taking wiki, they could use zim or Raneto
or even wordpress, and for extensive purposes there are bigger projects
like foswiki or Xwiki or Twiki.
As someone who spend quite some time testing several solutions listed in
wikimatrix.com, I can say this with a level of confidence that the
advantage of TW5 is its flexibility. It gives you a scalpel that can cut
out a make a simple slash or remove the kidney (enough with the medical
analogies. That would be the last one.)
However, while TW5 shows you the sky, it currently fails you give you
enough wings (told you, no more medical analogies). The other day I was
looking for a solution to export a list to a text file. The text file would
show up with the content <$list filter="[tag[HelloThere]]"/> - which is
obviously not what I wanted. I am not ego-centric enough to believe that I
am the first one to have this question. Someone might have, and he would
have found a solution. It might be even in this group, I just have to spend
20-25 mins trying to sift through the chaff and get to the solution. Of
course you can ask the group, you people will graciously put in time and
effort to answer. Nevertheless, having to ask such a possibly simple
question, over and over again is a dehumanizing experience. Not a whole lot
will subscribe to that.
This is the point where I have this question: Why is Tiddlyverse so
averse to the idea of setting up an organized community documentation?
Jeremy Ruston is a single human being who has as much time as any of us.
Besides being the main developer of TW5 which he does not use to earn his
bread, expecting him to take point on documentation and creating tutorials
is seriously unfair.
It has been quite some time since Erwan outlined a commendable model for
TW5 documentation and Mat raised the issue in an earnest manner. Has there
been much progress since then? The Wikidocs group is dead and dry as, well,
whatever is dead and dry.
Now here is a couple of proposals.
1. Create a mediawiki to document TW5. (gasp, audible murmurs and
chattering of pitchforks). TW5 is not supporting collaborative editing and
user approval as of now. It was not intended for such an aim if I
understand it correctly. That being so, there is no harm or shame in using
other services. The approved users can create documentation which will
remove the burden from a single person. There are services that will host a
mediawiki for free.
2. Create something of the nature of Tiddlydrive where users can simply
submit a plain text write-up which will be incorporated to the wiki after
being reviewed by a subgroup of moderators. This actually is more demanding
than the first option, but it has the advantage that people does not have
to learn to clone-commit-push-and-pull.
Documentation is tough to come by. Demanding that a user should learn the
ways of github which is not the most user-friendly solutions, is akin to
actively discouraging the user submissions except from a niche. There are
scores of cases, examples, tweaks and customisations that has no place in
the official website. Nor is its place scattered in a 100 different TWs or
1000 different posts.
sincerely
Someone who took 2 months to realize that you can actually change the
color of site title.
PS: For those who put up with the long read, here is a JSON. It will set
your sidebar search field to only activate the search upon pressing enter
key. Will help if you have a large wiki and do not want to reload the
search with every keystroke.
--
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David Gifford
2016-12-01 21:38:04 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mark

Thanks for your comments. I agree Mediawiki would be a good option, and
like the idea of dividing into the three audiences you mentioned (I did
something somewhat similar for TW for the rest of us), though I think some
items like list filters and customization should be for both end users and
non-developer power users.

Dave

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:45 AM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I think a MediaWiki or similar solution would be a great thing. MediaWiki
has a listing of MW sites available, including at least one that says its
free and add-free (but who knows what the details are?). Other sites are
fairly inexpensive if data can be kept under 10G.
The question is, is all the stuff currently in TiddlyWiki now technically
copyrighted, or can it be ported to another working environment?
The current system of documentation discourages participation. I've
written documentation and tutorials for other products, and wouldn't mind
doing so for TW, but not tethered the way the current system is.
Mark
Post by Riz
Ok, so this is a post I have been planning to make for long. Wear your
seat-belts.
Obligatory warning: The following comments are made out of a sincere
desire to see this platform getting better and appealing to more people.
Remember that I have no personal gains from writing this.
The thread is missing the point of Josiah's post. The need for a
co-ordinated effort to create community documentation.
| It's like buying a book on first aid and complaining that there's no
chapter on removing kidneys.
TW5's competition is not evernote. People look for Tiddlywiki when they
already left behind evernote and are looking for alternatives. So from the
scores of alternatives available, why would one choose TW5?
TW5 as a first aid solution is not the main part of its charm. We have to
admit its limitations compared to the competing solutions. Saving for one.
Telling people you can use this as a single page html anywhere is
wonderful, as long as you have firefox and a plugin is not equally so. The
impending death of Tiddlychrome will be effectively ruling out SPA use in
Chrome unless you are game to put up with a less pleasing user experience.
Also to be mentioned is the inability to use javascript. I understand
that there are hurdles wrt security (not really, but for the sake of this
post, let us pretend that I understand.). Nevertheless this is a
disadvantage a lot of other wikis do not have. [Meanwhile if I use a TW
just in my computer in the HTML format without having to worry about
security, can I enable the js scripts? There are a lot of awesome js
scripts out there and waiting for someone to adapt those to TW undermines
the whole standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants approach. Enablejs plugin
is not working,:-( ]
If people wanted a simple note taking wiki, they could use zim or Raneto
or even wordpress, and for extensive purposes there are bigger projects
like foswiki or Xwiki or Twiki.
As someone who spend quite some time testing several solutions listed in
wikimatrix.com, I can say this with a level of confidence that the
advantage of TW5 is its flexibility. It gives you a scalpel that can cut
out a make a simple slash or remove the kidney (enough with the medical
analogies. That would be the last one.)
However, while TW5 shows you the sky, it currently fails you give you
enough wings (told you, no more medical analogies). The other day I was
looking for a solution to export a list to a text file. The text file would
show up with the content <$list filter="[tag[HelloThere]]"/> - which is
obviously not what I wanted. I am not ego-centric enough to believe that I
am the first one to have this question. Someone might have, and he would
have found a solution. It might be even in this group, I just have to spend
20-25 mins trying to sift through the chaff and get to the solution. Of
course you can ask the group, you people will graciously put in time and
effort to answer. Nevertheless, having to ask such a possibly simple
question, over and over again is a dehumanizing experience. Not a whole lot
will subscribe to that.
This is the point where I have this question: Why is Tiddlyverse so
averse to the idea of setting up an organized community documentation?
Jeremy Ruston is a single human being who has as much time as any of us.
Besides being the main developer of TW5 which he does not use to earn his
bread, expecting him to take point on documentation and creating tutorials
is seriously unfair.
It has been quite some time since Erwan outlined a commendable model for
TW5 documentation and Mat raised the issue in an earnest manner. Has there
been much progress since then? The Wikidocs group is dead and dry as, well,
whatever is dead and dry.
Now here is a couple of proposals.
1. Create a mediawiki to document TW5. (gasp, audible murmurs and
chattering of pitchforks). TW5 is not supporting collaborative editing and
user approval as of now. It was not intended for such an aim if I
understand it correctly. That being so, there is no harm or shame in using
other services. The approved users can create documentation which will
remove the burden from a single person. There are services that will host a
mediawiki for free.
2. Create something of the nature of Tiddlydrive where users can simply
submit a plain text write-up which will be incorporated to the wiki after
being reviewed by a subgroup of moderators. This actually is more demanding
than the first option, but it has the advantage that people does not have
to learn to clone-commit-push-and-pull.
Documentation is tough to come by. Demanding that a user should learn the
ways of github which is not the most user-friendly solutions, is akin to
actively discouraging the user submissions except from a niche. There are
scores of cases, examples, tweaks and customisations that has no place in
the official website. Nor is its place scattered in a 100 different TWs or
1000 different posts.
sincerely
Someone who took 2 months to realize that you can actually change the
color of site title.
PS: For those who put up with the long read, here is a JSON. It will set
your sidebar search field to only activate the search upon pressing enter
key. Will help if you have a large wiki and do not want to reload the
search with every keystroke.
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Eneko Gotzon
2016-12-02 04:27:04 UTC
Permalink
dividing into the three audiences

​+1.

For me, humble user, it is hard to understand what this skilled​
(wonderful) group communicates about.
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David Gifford
2016-12-01 14:56:02 UTC
Permalink
I want to affirm Josiah and Riz's frustration, from someone who has done
introductory documentation for TW classic (TiddlyWiki for the rest of us)
and the current TiddlyWiki (which you can still find on tiddlywiki.com, via
Github, and Github was a miserable experience for me. I still don't get it).

Six things to try to explain (and defend, but not excuse) the current lack
of documentation:

One problem is really a blessing: there is seemingly a limitless amount of
things you can do with TiddlyWiki, and limitless ways to customize it. So
to imagine a documentation site that could cover all those possibilities
seems too great. The possibilities are so many that is even hard to know
how best to structure or organize a documentation site for TW, which I know
from experience. For example, Jeremy and I had very differing opinions at
one point because Jeremy prefers noun and definition-based categories for
documentation (this is what a macro *is*, and this is the machinery behind
it), whereas I prefer verb and illustration-based categories (this is what
a user wants to *do*, how can she do it?). As you can see, that distinction
alone would result in two very different ways of organizing the
documentation, like a car mechanic's manual vs a driver's manual.

Another problem is that TiddlyWiki is a moving target. Updates have slowed
down, but for a while the new versions were coming out every 2-4 weeks, and
doing documentation would require extensive monitoring and rewrites. Not
much of an incentive to do documentation.

Another problem is that many of the users are not writers and find it hard
to understand and communicate with less technically savvy end users like
me. Much of the documentation lacks use case examples, and after many of
the answers I have received here, I have had to ask them to explain it
another way because I didn't have a clue what they were saying. This is not
a criticism of the community, more of a defense of them - writing tutorials
or explanations would not be their gift or passion, so it is too much to
expect from them. Whereas they show time and time again that they will
generously help people when given questions that are stated specifically
and clearly enough. So the Google Groups format works.

Another issue is GitHub. Using what to me is a system with a very
complicated learning curve to document another complex system. Too much
work.

Another issue is that development of TiddlyWiki goes in random spurts based
on the limited attention span of key players. Things that get mentioned on
Hangouts, in conversation, or in the GitHub issues list, at first are given
a lot of attention, but if something else that is interesting comes along,
the first item gets left hanging and even forgotten because the attention
is now on the second item. I remember when list fields were the big thing,
and I was confidently told there would be a UI for rearranging list items
with drag and drop, etc. Never happened. There was also discussion on a
hangout of doing a flexible table format where each cell is on a different
line and could be formatted. When I asked about it some time later, I was
told, "Why would anyone need that? Just use an html table" as if I was
talking about something out of the blue. Could multiply examples of what
almost sounded like promises of what would be in TW but that never
materialized. So I tend to now take things with a grain of salt.

Another issue is that the minute things stabilize, a web browser decides to
change things around completely. Now I am hearing that Tiddlyfox will not
work in an upcoming version of Firefox. Not only does this mean I have no
idea how I will use TW after that happens, but it requires fixes that then
require changes in the documentation.

On another fairly separate note, one thing that bugs me, not so much about
documentation as about learning TW, is that there are too many things that
are similar to each other that you really have to learn them well or create
cheatsheets to keep it straight. For example, widgets and macros. In some
cases they do the same thing but the syntax is different: <<list-links
filter:"[tagging[bob]]">> and <$list filter="[tagging[bob]]"/> What I don't
understand is why the one has : after the word filter and the other has =.
A little standardization there would have helped a lot. And the distinction
between [tags[ [tag[ tagging[ is not clear, and sometimes the syntax is
the opposite of what the function is. ([tagged[ would have been preferable
to [tagging[, I think) I turn to Tobias Beer's list filter reference page
often, and even then I struggle to combine lists within lists or add CSS to
one part of a list. And @@. @@ isn't always as flexible as <span class=""/>
so they are not synonymous ways of wrapping with CSS. (eg you can't put
@@.@@ inside of another @@. @@ as you can with spans). And for indenting
there is : and > and I think two other ways. Great that we have so many
options and so much flexibility! But it makes it difficult to conceive of
documentation when there are ten ways of doing each thing. And more to my
point, it is really hard to learn all this stuff when it all looks so
similar but really is not.

Anyway, this is not a rant. Just some comments on documentation and
learning to take into consideration. Hopefully someone will find them
helpful. Dave
Post by Josiah
Ciao tutti
In the last two weeks I've had extensive private correspondence with three
folk over on Twitter who want to know where to find the "real
documentation" for TiddlyWiki. After pointing to what documentation there
is I suggested they ask in the group on specific things they want to do.
If I hadn't engaged in that discussion with them I would never have know
there are potential users who are likely passing on from not being able to
grasp enough quickly enough to be able to utilise TW well.
I think its a problem (for them at least) as is.
Just saying ...
Josiah
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2016-12-01 16:09:15 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dave,

Responses to various points --

There probably need to be 3 document paths: User, Advanced User, Developer.

Each bit of documentation could include the version it was written for.
Then the reader could decide if what they're reading is applicable.

Adding better use-cases would be much more tempting with a MediaWiki (or
some other Wiki/Blogging tool).

Github is a pain, but not as much as waiting 6 to 12 weeks to see your
stuff submitted.

A MediaWiki type solution would allow people to get stuff out there while
attention spans are still focused. Then no one could deny they said
(promised?) it.

When TiddlyFox stops working, you should be able to save with the fall-back
mechanism, which operates as a series of downloads. For any one session it
feels just like it does now. But when you start a new session, you need to
copy over the last TW you saved to your starting folder/site. I can imagine
a script of some type helping to automate the process.

Probably coming up with a good workflow will be important for beginners
when the changes occur. The thing to understand is that, since the very
beginning, TW has been doing something that's considered a no-no in the
security world: Saving copies of itself to the hard drive. In the past it
used various loop-holes, developer's backdoors, java code and extensions.
Over time the browser developers have become more serious about security
and having been closing the loop-holes.

I doubt the confusing code elements are going to change, because too much
of the system has been built on them. But having documentation that
highlights these ambiguities would allow users to more readily thread their
way through DIY solutions.

Pax,
Mark
Post by David Gifford
I want to affirm Josiah and Riz's frustration, from someone who has done
introductory documentation for TW classic (TiddlyWiki for the rest of us)
and the current TiddlyWiki (which you can still find on tiddlywiki.com,
and which I added via Github, and Github was a miserable experience for me.
I still don't get it).
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Jeremy Ruston
2016-12-01 16:11:35 UTC
Permalink
Just jumping in on the TiddlyFox issue, there will be an update to TiddlyFox that works with the new architecture. It’s an update I prepared last year but pulled at the last minute because it doesn’t work on Firefox for Android; those users will be able to stick with the current version.

Best wishes

Jeremy.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Hi Dave,
Responses to various points --
There probably need to be 3 document paths: User, Advanced User, Developer.
Each bit of documentation could include the version it was written for. Then the reader could decide if what they're reading is applicable.
Adding better use-cases would be much more tempting with a MediaWiki (or some other Wiki/Blogging tool).
Github is a pain, but not as much as waiting 6 to 12 weeks to see your stuff submitted.
A MediaWiki type solution would allow people to get stuff out there while attention spans are still focused. Then no one could deny they said (promised?) it.
When TiddlyFox stops working, you should be able to save with the fall-back mechanism, which operates as a series of downloads. For any one session it feels just like it does now. But when you start a new session, you need to copy over the last TW you saved to your starting folder/site. I can imagine a script of some type helping to automate the process.
Probably coming up with a good workflow will be important for beginners when the changes occur. The thing to understand is that, since the very beginning, TW has been doing something that's considered a no-no in the security world: Saving copies of itself to the hard drive. In the past it used various loop-holes, developer's backdoors, java code and extensions. Over time the browser developers have become more serious about security and having been closing the loop-holes.
I doubt the confusing code elements are going to change, because too much of the system has been built on them. But having documentation that highlights these ambiguities would allow users to more readily thread their way through DIY solutions.
Pax,
Mark
I want to affirm Josiah and Riz's frustration, from someone who has done introductory documentation for TW classic (TiddlyWiki for the rest of us) and the current TiddlyWiki (which you can still find on tiddlywiki.com <http://tiddlywiki.com/>, and which I added via Github, and Github was a miserable experience for me. I still don't get it).
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2016-12-03 19:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Jeremy,

Can you clarify? If we wanted to use material from TiddlyWiki.com for an
alternate documentation system, is the material copy-right free?

Thanks!
Mark
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Riz
2016-12-01 17:03:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Hi Dave,
Responses to various points --
There probably need to be 3 document paths: User, Advanced User, Developer.
Each bit of documentation could include the version it was written for.
Then the reader could decide if what they're reading is applicable.
Adding better use-cases would be much more tempting with a MediaWiki (or
some other Wiki/Blogging tool).
So what are we waiting for? Jeremy's green signal?
Miraheze sounds like a it is not having much strings attached to it. Free,
no ads and I did not read about a space limitation. We can always have
backups. People back up entire wikipedia at times.
We would need a board of moderators just to review the submissions. In
addition to Mark, I nominate Mat, being the mod of WikiDocs, if he is
willing.
A style guide should be specified for the submissions. Within the outline
Mark just said -User, Advanced User and Developer, there should be both
noun based (what is this and what is its syntax) and verb based submissions
(how to achieve "this" using "that"), interlinking to each other.

Last but not least, being someone who has very little trust in sustained
enthusiasm of human kind for anything that will not immediately profit them
or entertain them, I suggest that people who ask for help in the group, if
they found a satisfactory solution, should be asked to document it and
submit. A little give back to the community and it will ensure steady flow
of submissions.
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Arlen Beiler
2016-12-01 18:01:31 UTC
Permalink
I want to put my voice in here. The capabilities of the NodeJS
--server are totally underestimated. While you guys worry about single
tiddlywikis and huge tiddlywikis and all kinds of browser plugin
problems, I've been typing http://localhost:3000/ into my browser and
it works no matter what. Most of you don't store your files on Dropbox
or anywhere else that syncs and so you would have no problem carting
around a folder. Furthermore, many of those files can be combined into
one file. Literally one file for each file in the system tab of
TiddlyWiki, plus a few extra.

The reason no one knows about this is that it is hardly documented.
And yet, many of the scenarios that people ask for could be solved
beautifully using the server version. Inherited wikis, different
plugins on different wikis, etc. I'm not there yet, but it is possible
to host an unlimited number of wikis on the server. Until that
happens, however, it is not hard to use express to load ten
tiddlywikis on ten different folders (http://myexample.com/wiki1,
/wiki2, etc). And those tiddlywikis can inherit from each other.

That being said, I currently use single file TiddlyWikis that I have
stored on dropbox, and then modify them using
http://tiny.cc/tw5inthesky which uploads the file using the Dropbox
API.

My 2 cents,
-Arlen
Post by Riz
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Hi Dave,
Responses to various points --
There probably need to be 3 document paths: User, Advanced User, Developer.
Each bit of documentation could include the version it was written for.
Then the reader could decide if what they're reading is applicable.
Adding better use-cases would be much more tempting with a MediaWiki (or
some other Wiki/Blogging tool).
So what are we waiting for? Jeremy's green signal?
Miraheze sounds like a it is not having much strings attached to it. Free,
no ads and I did not read about a space limitation. We can always have
backups. People back up entire wikipedia at times.
We would need a board of moderators just to review the submissions. In
addition to Mark, I nominate Mat, being the mod of WikiDocs, if he is
willing.
A style guide should be specified for the submissions. Within the outline
Mark just said -User, Advanced User and Developer, there should be both noun
based (what is this and what is its syntax) and verb based submissions (how
to achieve "this" using "that"), interlinking to each other.
Last but not least, being someone who has very little trust in sustained
enthusiasm of human kind for anything that will not immediately profit them
or entertain them, I suggest that people who ask for help in the group, if
they found a satisfactory solution, should be asked to document it and
submit. A little give back to the community and it will ensure steady flow
of submissions.
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Josiah
2016-12-02 18:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Mark S

You make great points.

IMO USE CASES are seriously currently UNDERDONE compared to other software.

I guess in back of my mind are questions about USAGE.

I think a VERY good example is how to post to social networks. Something I
consider basic. In theory everything is there in TW that allows posting via
the URI mechanisms. Actually doing it with properly URI formatted URLS is
another story. I tried. I failed. I'm lacking the documentation I'd need.

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Hi Dave,
Responses to various points --
There probably need to be 3 document paths: User, Advanced User, Developer.
Each bit of documentation could include the version it was written for.
Then the reader could decide if what they're reading is applicable.
Adding better use-cases would be much more tempting with a MediaWiki (or
some other Wiki/Blogging tool).
Github is a pain, but not as much as waiting 6 to 12 weeks to see your
stuff submitted.
A MediaWiki type solution would allow people to get stuff out there while
attention spans are still focused. Then no one could deny they said
(promised?) it.
When TiddlyFox stops working, you should be able to save with the
fall-back mechanism, which operates as a series of downloads. For any one
session it feels just like it does now. But when you start a new session,
you need to copy over the last TW you saved to your starting folder/site. I
can imagine a script of some type helping to automate the process.
Probably coming up with a good workflow will be important for beginners
when the changes occur. The thing to understand is that, since the very
beginning, TW has been doing something that's considered a no-no in the
security world: Saving copies of itself to the hard drive. In the past it
used various loop-holes, developer's backdoors, java code and extensions.
Over time the browser developers have become more serious about security
and having been closing the loop-holes.
I doubt the confusing code elements are going to change, because too much
of the system has been built on them. But having documentation that
highlights these ambiguities would allow users to more readily thread their
way through DIY solutions.
Pax,
Mark
Post by David Gifford
I want to affirm Josiah and Riz's frustration, from someone who has done
introductory documentation for TW classic (TiddlyWiki for the rest of us)
and the current TiddlyWiki (which you can still find on tiddlywiki.com,
and which I added via Github, and Github was a miserable experience for me.
I still don't get it).
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2016-12-03 20:05:56 UTC
Permalink
Hello Josiah,

So, do you think the MAIN problem with tiddlywiki.com is lack of use-cases?

In that case, perhaps you could help identify areas that need better
use-cases, and then we could add them ... and ta-dah! Done.

However, I don't think the one case you pointed out, "How do you append to
a list a title with spaces using a text reference?" is a typical or general
use-case. A creative person could probably think of a hundred such special
cases, and they wouldn't be in any documentation just as "How do I paint
the Mona Lisa?" would not be included with the documentation for a
beginner's paint set.

However, once someone has figured out the solution to "How do you append to
a list a title with spaces using a text reference?" then I suppose it could
be added to TiddlyWiki.com? Perhaps in the How-To section?

But, if just adding a new entry is suitable, then maybe what we really need
is a documentation group or documentation thread. People can nominate
topics and solutions they have found that they would like added to the
documentation. Others can grab the topics, indicate that they will be
submitting the items to github (like calling "dibs"), and then make the
submissions.

Have fun,
Mark
Post by Josiah
Ciao Mark S
You make great points.
IMO USE CASES are seriously currently UNDERDONE compared to other software.
I guess in back of my mind are questions about USAGE.
I think a VERY good example is how to post to social networks. Something I
consider basic. In theory everything is there in TW that allows posting via
the URI mechanisms. Actually doing it with properly URI formatted URLS is
another story. I tried. I failed. I'm lacking the documentation I'd need.
Best wishes
Josiah
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Hi Dave,
Responses to various points --
There probably need to be 3 document paths: User, Advanced User, Developer.
Each bit of documentation could include the version it was written for.
Then the reader could decide if what they're reading is applicable.
Adding better use-cases would be much more tempting with a MediaWiki (or
some other Wiki/Blogging tool).
Github is a pain, but not as much as waiting 6 to 12 weeks to see your
stuff submitted.
A MediaWiki type solution would allow people to get stuff out there while
attention spans are still focused. Then no one could deny they said
(promised?) it.
When TiddlyFox stops working, you should be able to save with the
fall-back mechanism, which operates as a series of downloads. For any one
session it feels just like it does now. But when you start a new session,
you need to copy over the last TW you saved to your starting folder/site. I
can imagine a script of some type helping to automate the process.
Probably coming up with a good workflow will be important for beginners
when the changes occur. The thing to understand is that, since the very
beginning, TW has been doing something that's considered a no-no in the
security world: Saving copies of itself to the hard drive. In the past it
used various loop-holes, developer's backdoors, java code and extensions.
Over time the browser developers have become more serious about security
and having been closing the loop-holes.
I doubt the confusing code elements are going to change, because too much
of the system has been built on them. But having documentation that
highlights these ambiguities would allow users to more readily thread their
way through DIY solutions.
Pax,
Mark
Post by David Gifford
I want to affirm Josiah and Riz's frustration, from someone who has done
introductory documentation for TW classic (TiddlyWiki for the rest of us)
and the current TiddlyWiki (which you can still find on tiddlywiki.com,
and which I added via Github, and Github was a miserable experience for me.
I still don't get it).
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Philippe Le Toquin
2016-12-03 21:21:00 UTC
Permalink
Hello Mark,

"How do you append to a list a title with spaces using a text reference?"
may not be a typical use-case (I am not even sure I understand what it
means!!) but I think that as the use-case list grows then people will be
saying "Wow you can do all that with Tw5!"

I personally used what was TW classic years ago and was mainly using it to
keep some notes. I stopped because I lost my file due to no backup and
couldn't not be bothered to start again.

More recently I rediscovered TW5 and decided to use it again. Reading some
of the documentations (which is great for the most part!), I realised that
it is more than a note keeping tool and that one can do a lot of things
with it if you know how to "program" it. My own TW file that I use to
manage my bakery was created because of some of the use-case I found and
thought well that could be useful for what I would ideally want to do.

May be we should use the term Cookbook rather that use-case.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Hello Josiah,
So, do you think the MAIN problem with tiddlywiki.com is lack of use-cases?
In that case, perhaps you could help identify areas that need better
use-cases, and then we could add them ... and ta-dah! Done.
However, I don't think the one case you pointed out, "How do you append to
a list a title with spaces using a text reference?" is a typical or general
use-case. A creative person could probably think of a hundred such special
cases, and they wouldn't be in any documentation just as "How do I paint
the Mona Lisa?" would not be included with the documentation for a
beginner's paint set.
However, once someone has figured out the solution to "How do you append
to a list a title with spaces using a text reference?" then I suppose it
could be added to TiddlyWiki.com? Perhaps in the How-To section?
If just adding a new entry is suitable, then maybe what we really need is
a documentation group or documentation thread. People can nominate topics
and solutions they have found that they would like added to the
documentation. Others can grab the topics, indicate that they will be
submitting the items to github (like calling "dibs"), and then make the
submissions.
Have fun,
Mark
Post by Josiah
Ciao Mark S
You make great points.
IMO USE CASES are seriously currently UNDERDONE compared to other software.
I guess in back of my mind are questions about USAGE.
I think a VERY good example is how to post to social networks. Something
I consider basic. In theory everything is there in TW that allows posting
via the URI mechanisms. Actually doing it with properly URI formatted URLS
is another story. I tried. I failed. I'm lacking the documentation I'd need.
Best wishes
Josiah
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Hi Dave,
Responses to various points --
There probably need to be 3 document paths: User, Advanced User, Developer.
Each bit of documentation could include the version it was written for.
Then the reader could decide if what they're reading is applicable.
Adding better use-cases would be much more tempting with a MediaWiki (or
some other Wiki/Blogging tool).
Github is a pain, but not as much as waiting 6 to 12 weeks to see your
stuff submitted.
A MediaWiki type solution would allow people to get stuff out there
while attention spans are still focused. Then no one could deny they said
(promised?) it.
When TiddlyFox stops working, you should be able to save with the
fall-back mechanism, which operates as a series of downloads. For any one
session it feels just like it does now. But when you start a new session,
you need to copy over the last TW you saved to your starting folder/site. I
can imagine a script of some type helping to automate the process.
Probably coming up with a good workflow will be important for beginners
when the changes occur. The thing to understand is that, since the very
beginning, TW has been doing something that's considered a no-no in the
security world: Saving copies of itself to the hard drive. In the past it
used various loop-holes, developer's backdoors, java code and extensions.
Over time the browser developers have become more serious about security
and having been closing the loop-holes.
I doubt the confusing code elements are going to change, because too
much of the system has been built on them. But having documentation that
highlights these ambiguities would allow users to more readily thread their
way through DIY solutions.
Pax,
Mark
Post by David Gifford
I want to affirm Josiah and Riz's frustration, from someone who has
done introductory documentation for TW classic (TiddlyWiki for the rest of
us) and the current TiddlyWiki (which you can still find on
tiddlywiki.com, and which I added via Github, and Github was a
miserable experience for me. I still don't get it).
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Josiah
2016-12-05 15:03:18 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Philippe

I think you hit on a central point. The SEEING of "WOW, you can do THAT!"

IMO we are selling ourselves short in NOT showing enough USE CASES to make
clear HOW FLEXIBLE TiddlyWiki is. Or rather, they do get shown/mentioned in
the Google Group BUT because of the way it works once the thread is old you
have no way to easily find them.

Overall I think we make life harder for beginners than it should be.

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Philippe Le Toquin
Hello Mark,
"How do you append to a list a title with spaces using a text reference?"
may not be a typical use-case (I am not even sure I understand what it
means!!) but I think that as the use-case list grows then people will be
saying "Wow you can do all that with Tw5!"
I personally used what was TW classic years ago and was mainly using it to
keep some notes. I stopped because I lost my file due to no backup and
couldn't not be bothered to start again.
More recently I rediscovered TW5 and decided to use it again. Reading some
of the documentations (which is great for the most part!), I realised that
it is more than a note keeping tool and that one can do a lot of things
with it if you know how to "program" it. My own TW file that I use to
manage my bakery was created because of some of the use-case I found and
thought well that could be useful for what I would ideally want to do.
May be we should use the term Cookbook rather that use-case.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Hello Josiah,
So, do you think the MAIN problem with tiddlywiki.com is lack of use-cases?
In that case, perhaps you could help identify areas that need better
use-cases, and then we could add them ... and ta-dah! Done.
However, I don't think the one case you pointed out, "How do you append
to a list a title with spaces using a text reference?" is a typical or
general use-case. A creative person could probably think of a hundred such
special cases, and they wouldn't be in any documentation just as "How do I
paint the Mona Lisa?" would not be included with the documentation for a
beginner's paint set.
However, once someone has figured out the solution to "How do you append
to a list a title with spaces using a text reference?" then I suppose it
could be added to TiddlyWiki.com? Perhaps in the How-To section?
If just adding a new entry is suitable, then maybe what we really need is
a documentation group or documentation thread. People can nominate topics
and solutions they have found that they would like added to the
documentation. Others can grab the topics, indicate that they will be
submitting the items to github (like calling "dibs"), and then make the
submissions.
Have fun,
Mark
Post by Josiah
Ciao Mark S
You make great points.
IMO USE CASES are seriously currently UNDERDONE compared to other software.
I guess in back of my mind are questions about USAGE.
I think a VERY good example is how to post to social networks. Something
I consider basic. In theory everything is there in TW that allows posting
via the URI mechanisms. Actually doing it with properly URI formatted URLS
is another story. I tried. I failed. I'm lacking the documentation I'd need.
Best wishes
Josiah
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Hi Dave,
Responses to various points --
There probably need to be 3 document paths: User, Advanced User, Developer.
Each bit of documentation could include the version it was written for.
Then the reader could decide if what they're reading is applicable.
Adding better use-cases would be much more tempting with a MediaWiki
(or some other Wiki/Blogging tool).
Github is a pain, but not as much as waiting 6 to 12 weeks to see your
stuff submitted.
A MediaWiki type solution would allow people to get stuff out there
while attention spans are still focused. Then no one could deny they said
(promised?) it.
When TiddlyFox stops working, you should be able to save with the
fall-back mechanism, which operates as a series of downloads. For any one
session it feels just like it does now. But when you start a new session,
you need to copy over the last TW you saved to your starting folder/site. I
can imagine a script of some type helping to automate the process.
Probably coming up with a good workflow will be important for beginners
when the changes occur. The thing to understand is that, since the very
beginning, TW has been doing something that's considered a no-no in the
security world: Saving copies of itself to the hard drive. In the past it
used various loop-holes, developer's backdoors, java code and extensions.
Over time the browser developers have become more serious about security
and having been closing the loop-holes.
I doubt the confusing code elements are going to change, because too
much of the system has been built on them. But having documentation that
highlights these ambiguities would allow users to more readily thread their
way through DIY solutions.
Pax,
Mark
Post by David Gifford
I want to affirm Josiah and Riz's frustration, from someone who has
done introductory documentation for TW classic (TiddlyWiki for the rest of
us) and the current TiddlyWiki (which you can still find on
tiddlywiki.com, and which I added via Github, and Github was a
miserable experience for me. I still don't get it).
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Rizwan Ishak
2016-12-05 15:20:17 UTC
Permalink
Even if there is a general agreement or community rule that people will
update their posts with answers to their own questions, I offer to set up a
wiki and copy and paste them under appropriate topics. But one person
cannot be expected to prepare the entire documentation.

On 05-Dec-2016 8:33 PM, "Josiah" <***@assays.tv> wrote:

Ciao Philippe

I think you hit on a central point. The SEEING of "WOW, you can do THAT!"

IMO we are selling ourselves short in NOT showing enough USE CASES to make
clear HOW FLEXIBLE TiddlyWiki is. Or rather, they do get shown/mentioned in
the Google Group BUT because of the way it works once the thread is old you
have no way to easily find them.

Overall I think we make life harder for beginners than it should be.

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Philippe Le Toquin
Hello Mark,
"How do you append to a list a title with spaces using a text reference?"
may not be a typical use-case (I am not even sure I understand what it
means!!) but I think that as the use-case list grows then people will be
saying "Wow you can do all that with Tw5!"
I personally used what was TW classic years ago and was mainly using it to
keep some notes. I stopped because I lost my file due to no backup and
couldn't not be bothered to start again.
More recently I rediscovered TW5 and decided to use it again. Reading some
of the documentations (which is great for the most part!), I realised that
it is more than a note keeping tool and that one can do a lot of things
with it if you know how to "program" it. My own TW file that I use to
manage my bakery was created because of some of the use-case I found and
thought well that could be useful for what I would ideally want to do.
May be we should use the term Cookbook rather that use-case.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Hello Josiah,
So, do you think the MAIN problem with tiddlywiki.com is lack of use-cases?
In that case, perhaps you could help identify areas that need better
use-cases, and then we could add them ... and ta-dah! Done.
However, I don't think the one case you pointed out, "How do you append
to a list a title with spaces using a text reference?" is a typical or
general use-case. A creative person could probably think of a hundred such
special cases, and they wouldn't be in any documentation just as "How do I
paint the Mona Lisa?" would not be included with the documentation for a
beginner's paint set.
However, once someone has figured out the solution to "How do you append
to a list a title with spaces using a text reference?" then I suppose it
could be added to TiddlyWiki.com? Perhaps in the How-To section?
If just adding a new entry is suitable, then maybe what we really need is
a documentation group or documentation thread. People can nominate topics
and solutions they have found that they would like added to the
documentation. Others can grab the topics, indicate that they will be
submitting the items to github (like calling "dibs"), and then make the
submissions.
Have fun,
Mark
Post by Josiah
Ciao Mark S
You make great points.
IMO USE CASES are seriously currently UNDERDONE compared to other software.
I guess in back of my mind are questions about USAGE.
I think a VERY good example is how to post to social networks. Something
I consider basic. In theory everything is there in TW that allows posting
via the URI mechanisms. Actually doing it with properly URI formatted URLS
is another story. I tried. I failed. I'm lacking the documentation I'd need.
Best wishes
Josiah
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Hi Dave,
Responses to various points --
There probably need to be 3 document paths: User, Advanced User, Developer.
Each bit of documentation could include the version it was written for.
Then the reader could decide if what they're reading is applicable.
Adding better use-cases would be much more tempting with a MediaWiki
(or some other Wiki/Blogging tool).
Github is a pain, but not as much as waiting 6 to 12 weeks to see your
stuff submitted.
A MediaWiki type solution would allow people to get stuff out there
while attention spans are still focused. Then no one could deny they said
(promised?) it.
When TiddlyFox stops working, you should be able to save with the
fall-back mechanism, which operates as a series of downloads. For any one
session it feels just like it does now. But when you start a new session,
you need to copy over the last TW you saved to your starting folder/site. I
can imagine a script of some type helping to automate the process.
Probably coming up with a good workflow will be important for beginners
when the changes occur. The thing to understand is that, since the very
beginning, TW has been doing something that's considered a no-no in the
security world: Saving copies of itself to the hard drive. In the past it
used various loop-holes, developer's backdoors, java code and extensions.
Over time the browser developers have become more serious about security
and having been closing the loop-holes.
I doubt the confusing code elements are going to change, because too
much of the system has been built on them. But having documentation that
highlights these ambiguities would allow users to more readily thread their
way through DIY solutions.
Pax,
Mark
Post by David Gifford
I want to affirm Josiah and Riz's frustration, from someone who has
done introductory documentation for TW classic (TiddlyWiki for the rest of
us) and the current TiddlyWiki (which you can still find on
tiddlywiki.com, and which I added via Github, and Github was a
miserable experience for me. I still don't get it).
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Josiah
2016-12-02 16:00:18 UTC
Permalink
David

That is a really excellent, detailed, and IMO, very accurate, balanced,
description of the situation.

You penultimate paragraph is absolutely spot on IMO. Very often, as a naive
user, I follow the docs only to find out I missed something that is some
kinda semi-documented something--but where the range of its application is
very context dependent and where there seem to be no exact rules. Life is
too short to test the 62 variants to find out what the rule actually is!

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by David Gifford
I want to affirm Josiah and Riz's frustration, from someone who has done
introductory documentation for TW classic (TiddlyWiki for the rest of us)
and the current TiddlyWiki (which you can still find on tiddlywiki.com,
and which I added via Github, and Github was a miserable experience for me.
I still don't get it).
Six things to try to explain (and defend, but not excuse) the current lack
One problem is really a blessing: there is seemingly a limitless amount of
things you can do with TiddlyWiki, and limitless ways to customize it. So
to imagine a documentation site that could cover all those possibilities
seems too great. The possibilities are so many that is even hard to know
how best to structure or organize a documentation site for TW, which I know
from experience. For example, Jeremy and I had very differing opinions at
one point because Jeremy prefers noun and definition-based categories for
documentation (this is what a macro *is*, and this is the machinery
behind it), whereas I prefer verb and illustration-based categories (this
is what a user wants to *do*, how can she do it?). As you can see, that
distinction alone would result in two very different ways of organizing the
documentation, like a car mechanic's manual vs a driver's manual.
Another problem is that TiddlyWiki is a moving target. Updates have slowed
down, but for a while the new versions were coming out every 2-4 weeks, and
doing documentation would require extensive monitoring and rewrites. Not
much of an incentive to do documentation.
Another problem is that many of the users are not writers and find it hard
to understand and communicate with less technically savvy end users like
me. Much of the documentation lacks use case examples, and after many of
the answers I have received here, I have had to ask them to explain it
another way because I didn't have a clue what they were saying. This is not
a criticism of the community, more of a defense of them - writing tutorials
or explanations would not be their gift or passion, so it is too much to
expect from them. Whereas they show time and time again that they will
generously help people when given questions that are stated specifically
and clearly enough. So the Google Groups format works.
Another issue is GitHub. Using what to me is a system with a very
complicated learning curve to document another complex system. Too much
work.
Another issue is that development of TiddlyWiki goes in random spurts
based on the limited attention span of key players. Things that get
mentioned on Hangouts, in conversation, or in the GitHub issues list, at
first are given a lot of attention, but if something else that is
interesting comes along, the first item gets left hanging and even
forgotten because the attention is now on the second item. I remember when
list fields were the big thing, and I was confidently told there would be a
UI for rearranging list items with drag and drop, etc. Never happened.
There was also discussion on a hangout of doing a flexible table format
where each cell is on a different line and could be formatted. When I asked
about it some time later, I was told, "Why would anyone need that? Just use
an html table" as if I was talking about something out of the blue. Could
multiply examples of what almost sounded like promises of what would be in
TW but that never materialized. So I tend to now take things with a grain
of salt.
Another issue is that the minute things stabilize, a web browser decides
to change things around completely. Now I am hearing that Tiddlyfox will
not work in an upcoming version of Firefox. Not only does this mean I have
no idea how I will use TW after that happens, but it requires fixes that
then require changes in the documentation.
On another fairly separate note, one thing that bugs me, not so much about
documentation as about learning TW, is that there are too many things that
are similar to each other that you really have to learn them well or create
cheatsheets to keep it straight. For example, widgets and macros. In some
cases they do the same thing but the syntax is different: <<list-links
filter:"[tagging[bob]]">> and <$list filter="[tagging[bob]]"/> What I don't
understand is why the one has : after the word filter and the other has =.
A little standardization there would have helped a lot. And the distinction
between [tags[ [tag[ tagging[ is not clear, and sometimes the syntax is
the opposite of what the function is. ([tagged[ would have been preferable
to [tagging[, I think) I turn to Tobias Beer's list filter reference page
often, and even then I struggle to combine lists within lists or add CSS to
so they are not synonymous ways of wrapping with CSS. (eg you can't put
@@.@@ inside of another @@. @@ as you can with spans). And for indenting
there is : and > and I think two other ways. Great that we have so many
options and so much flexibility! But it makes it difficult to conceive of
documentation when there are ten ways of doing each thing. And more to my
point, it is really hard to learn all this stuff when it all looks so
similar but really is not.
Anyway, this is not a rant. Just some comments on documentation and
learning to take into consideration. Hopefully someone will find them
helpful. Dave
Post by Josiah
Ciao tutti
In the last two weeks I've had extensive private correspondence with
three folk over on Twitter who want to know where to find the "real
documentation" for TiddlyWiki. After pointing to what documentation there
is I suggested they ask in the group on specific things they want to do.
If I hadn't engaged in that discussion with them I would never have know
there are potential users who are likely passing on from not being able to
grasp enough quickly enough to be able to utilise TW well.
I think its a problem (for them at least) as is.
Just saying ...
Josiah
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Riz
2016-12-02 15:55:40 UTC
Permalink
https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/comments/5g12vp/feel_free_to_ask_friday_a_thread_for_questions/dap5obv/?st=iw7z0lj9&sh=e485fceb

Case in point.
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Josiah
2016-12-02 16:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Riz

Right. The devil is in the details. Cases of user experience are very
important.

Josiah
Post by Riz
https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/comments/5g12vp/feel_free_to_ask_friday_a_thread_for_questions/dap5obv/?st=iw7z0lj9&sh=e485fceb
Case in point.
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Philippe Le Toquin
2016-12-02 22:25:09 UTC
Permalink
I think the idea of a separate wiki that would collect all kind of typical
user case would be a great idea. I asked the question that Rix mentioned on
reddit and the answer I got (from you Riz?) was spot on.

I don't consider myself an expert in programming but I can still normally
get my way around writing applications when I need to. With TW I often find
myself stuck with no way of knowing how to proceed.
At the moment I do ask on this group and must say that the help is just
wonderful but as it has been pointed it must be tiring after a while to
always answer the same question again and again.

As TW5 becomes more and more popular (because it will!) you will get more
and more of these "simple" questions. The forum is great but it can be
difficult to find the answers to your problem.

All that to say that a wiki would be a good way of gathering these use
case.

Philippe
Post by Josiah
Ciao Riz
Right. The devil is in the details. Cases of user experience are very
important.
Josiah
Post by Riz
https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/comments/5g12vp/feel_free_to_ask_friday_a_thread_for_questions/dap5obv/?st=iw7z0lj9&sh=e485fceb
Case in point.
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Mat
2016-12-02 23:39:06 UTC
Permalink
Documentation - I will explain the only realistic solution below but let me
start by saying what does NOT work (...if you're impatient you can jump
down to the headline "The solution").

There are two main routes that might seem reasonable great but are really
cul-de-saqs:

"The lonesome cowboy" whom well-intentioned attempts to write, create or
assemble comprehensive "how to use TW", "plugin collections" or
one-stop-shops to cover it all. This works for limited matters, such as an
intro for beginners or docs for some particular tw-application or "my own
plugins", but not for TW at large because it is too big and changes
continually. Heartfelt attempts have been made, in the TW community* for a
decade*, and they have all been lovely for a short while and soon
thereafter withered and failed.

"Manual community efforts"; The main attempt is/was probably tiddlywiki.
*org* <http://tiddlywiki.org>. There you have an actual wiki that anyone
can edit. I think it was either Daniel or Simon Baird who started it many
years ago and Tobias Beer gave it a substantial face-lift a few years ago.
Really wonderful attempts - but, still, it never took off. This is a strong
indication why something like a Mediawiki is NOT a good enough idea. The
exact *reason *for why it doesn't work is another matter.

tiddlywiki.com is a bit of a combo of the above; one lonesome cowboy taking
responsibility and with occasional help from fellow community members. The
result is by far the best we've got and IMO very impressive - but still, as
evidenced by this thread, it is not enough.

So... what CAN work?

Take a look at Erwans Community Search
<http://erwanm.github.io/tw-community-search/>. This is not intended for
aggregating documentation but for listing available plugins and finding
tiddlers with some specific characteristic - and only from TW's where their
authors have given approval for listing. The Community Aggregator says
(scroll down on default tid) it was updated "2nd December 2016 at 4:48 (15
hours ago)." ...which I guess would mean that non of the TW's it's fetching
from has been updated since August (tab Recent). This tool has assembled
10.000+ tiddlers and keeps on making sure they're updated - and here comes
my main point in bringing this up in our discussion: It would be impossible
to manually do the job that Erwans tool is doing. It demands automation.

If we want documentation that is comprehensive and up to date, this is
impossible by such very manual means. Even Wikipedia, with it's *many *contributors
is not without errors and stumps. And while docs for TW is a much smaller
project, it still relies on those knowledgeable enough to write the docs
(technically and linguistically) so this means we're down to... well, not
many people.

*The solution*... IMO ;-)

...is what we've already taken the first steps with, namely: TWederation /
Federation / Linked TW's, whatever you want to call it. This could be an
infrastructure where you "aggregate" documentation from other TW's, on
topics that concern you, and very easily add your own public notes to -
even just comments, ratings or other meta data. This can then, in turn, be
fetched by others. And you could have the fetched documentation
automatically filtered such as by prioritizing certain authors, or
later/more updated posts, or even if the post was authored in a TW with the
same version number as yours. Even super small contributions like *tagging *a
post, for your own benefit, will be of value for others and there could be
a global directory of tags (topics).

Actually, on an individual level it is not even necessary with a
comprehensive documentation. The only important topics are the ones you
care about. So you only fetch those, (perhaps by filtering on tags). And,
because this particular documentation will more likely be shared with
like-minded individuals, there should be more specialization of particular
areas of knowledge, which I believe is a more encouraging context to share
notes/docs in.

BTW, we can probably even design it so that you can add to the
documentation by asking questions in it!

I could go on and on about TWederation because I really think it is the
most realistic way that we can solve this ongoing difficulty with
documentation (...and much more). I hope to get back working on it soon but
the basic bricks are already in place and anyone is welcome to join in.
Development of it is not easy, yet, because this is uncharted territory.

<:-)
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Riz
2016-12-03 17:30:11 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mat and Jed
Your work is one of the most expected works. However here are my concerns

1. Organization: Having documentation alone will not do. It must be
organized under titles and subtitles and so and so. Orgnanization will
provide answers for the questions you have, as well as serve to showcase
the other possibilites and alternate methods in the same tree of questions,
from different sources and users.

2. Scalability. If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that the
scalability of an effort like Twederation will be difficult beyond a point.
Shouldn't we opt for a solution that has the ability to expand?

3. Learning curve. For someone who is new to TW5, Twederation will be yet
another thing he will have to learn, however simple it is being made into.
This introduces the same hurdle that makes github not ideal. While we might
not be able to make the process of creating documentation completely
familiar, we should atleast provide a way to access the documentation on a
familiar UI.

4. What if someone deletes his TW5? Will a copy of the documentation
persist somewhere or will it be lost? Since twederation is not a
client-server type setting, I guess not? If it will not persist, it means
the whole structure of documentation becomes volatile. If it does, where
will it stored?

5. Asking people to submit documentation is one thing, asking them to give
access to a file that resides in their hard-drive is another. Call me
paranoid.

6. The whole system depends on current browser security I assume. If they
become stringent tomorrow, what will happen?

7. Yours is a voluntary effort. I am not in anyway questioning you guys'
commitment to the project of Twederation, but what if at a point tomorrow
life makes it hardly possible to maintain the project of Twederation?

I understand that people will not submit documentation eagerly. Hence the
suggestion to make it a community agreement that if users get a
satisfactory solution for their problem from the group, they will simply
write it up and file it under the appropriate heading.

A lot of questions have very simple answers. It is quite sad that such an
effort requires this much push.

I want to remind the group in general in no uncertain terms - there is a
dearth of documentation. Unless we do that, in a world full of easy
solutions, people will not get a chance to know TW. One of you veterans, if
they take any kind of steps to set up such a community documentation, they
will have my whole hearted support and I offer any kind of help I can
provide.

Yours sincerely
Someone who realised yesterday that changes made to tiddlers starting with
$:/state will not make TW dirty.
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Ákos Szederjei
2016-12-03 18:45:34 UTC
Permalink
I think it is great that the additional possibilities of TW are organised and
made easily available for the general public.

Yet, I am not sure that we should replace the current TW file. As it is written
on the TW homepage it is a "unique non-linear notebook for capturing,
organising and sharing complex information". I think for that, the current
homepage is more than sufficient.
I am not against expanding the options, but I like the simplicity.

Also I like MediaWiki, but using for TW feels.....wrong. :) But again, maybe
it is a better option, I have no empirical reason against it.

Whatever you do, thanks for the work!

Ákos
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2016-12-03 19:44:09 UTC
Permalink
I can respond to points 4-7. I concur with points 1-3.

4. In theory, if dozens of sites have some portion of the documentation,
then there will always be a backup copy somewhere.

5. Any active participant will need to post his TW federation on a public
host. So nothing on his/her hard drive will be endangered.

6. The twederation system involves a web site pulling (effectively
"browsing") another web-site. So no special security concerns should be
raised. It's just an automated method of browsing Site B from within your
own site A. Nothing gets saved to the original web-site except through
standard web-server technologies (e.g. store.php).

7. In theory, if all the technical difficulties of Twederation can be
hammered out, the mechanism itself would never need to be maintained
(unless there is a significant change to TW5 itself). In theory (I'm saying
that a lot) there is no central TW and anyone could take up the mantle and
continue to maintain documentation.

IN PRACTICE, issues 1-3 kind of override issues 4-7. You really need
someone(s) to organize stuff. Otherwise what you have is cluttered beyond
utility. You need an on-ramp to the Twederation system, or you have to go
hat-in-hand to someone who's already in the system to alert them to your
presence and desire to be part of the network. Pulling from dozens
(hundreds?) of sites is not practicable. So there needs to be one or 2
sites that have most of the documentation most of the time.

About pt. 5, most people do not run their own host, so almost everyone will
probably end up using tiddlyspot. Which begs the issue, if everyone is on
the same server anyway, why not have everyone on the same wikimedia site
where things can be organized?

The last time I was active in testing, there were concerns about versioning
(can you edit an existing tiddler, can anyone edit someone else's existing
tiddler) and authentication (how do you know who really said what?) What
happens to older versions? There's not enough functional space in TW to
keep everything (that is, the more you keep, the slower it gets).

Twederation suffers from the same limitation as TW, which is that (unless
you're running node.js) when you open a TW up you have to pull the entire
thing across the net. This means that as accumulated documentation hits 6
megs or so people are going to be experiencing serious lags. Pulling from
other Twederation sites will have the same kind of speed limitation. This
is why even though "hubs" aren't supposed to be part of a federation
system, they will probably be required for a practical Twederation approach.

Enough rambling,
HTH
Mark
Post by Riz
Hi Mat and Jed
Your work is one of the most expected works. However here are my concerns
5. Asking people to submit documentation is one thing, asking them to give
access to a file that resides in their hard-drive is another. Call me
paranoid.
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Mat
2016-12-04 14:22:52 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
Riz
2016-12-04 15:24:55 UTC
Permalink
I disagree; consider any internet search engine for example. The idea to
Post by Mat
put everything in a pretty tree structure was abandoned decades ago.
Well here is the first link to the google search "Examples of Best
Documentation".
https://documentor.in/2148/best-examples-product-documentation-guides/
What all of the have in common, is organization.

If you "know TW" then the learning curve to "know TWederation" should
Post by Mat
probably not be that tricky.
Know TW being the keyword.

Fetching means to copy what you want. At least in curren implementation.
Post by Mat
There can also be a community aggregation for someting as important as
docs, i.e it can be an aggregating place much like tiddlywiki.com.
<http://tiddlywiki.com>
Here is a situation. I made a write-up on something. It is now part of the
documentation. UserB fetched it. Now I delete it. Tomorrow another person
is coming along looking for the write up. Will he be able to find the write
from UserB's copy? Remember UserB has not shared it from his wiki nor is he
aware of the fact that I have deleted it.


What else will happen tomorrow?
I am going to disagree with your tone here. Should I file it under "Wits
and Sarcasm from Internet strangers?"
Here is what might actually happen tomorrow. TW5 is depending on the
immense generosty of two individuals for Tiddlyspot, which they are running
solely for the sake of this group. Have anyone considered what happens when
they reach a point when they can no longer afford to? While demise of a
free service can happen to virtually anything, which one is more probable -
a hosting solution aimed at a single group or a hosting solution that is
depended by several?
If and when that happens, the whole tiddlyspace cycle will have to be
repeated. We have to count on every person who ever contributed to TW5 to
shift his contribution and link up again.

let me save you sime time: Ain't gonna happen. Not that I wouldn't want it
Post by Mat
to happen but it has proven to simply not work, for several reasons.
Has such an effort where people are asked to submit documentation in return
for the help from this group already tried? Can you show a part where it
was tested?


Besides, if people did already get the solution "from the group" i.e here
Post by Mat
on the boards(!) ...then it is already here and you can find it here.
Then pray tell me, how come this group begets several questions a day. How
come people still come up empty when they look for -say - how to add a
border to a tiddler? or how to hide a single field? I do not think it is
the first time anyone wanted to have a button that moves a tiddler up the
story-river. It is an easy solution. Jed answered it beautifully and
demonstrated several methods to achieve the same. Now try and search for
"Move tiddler up" or "Move tiddler up the sory-river." How deep do you have
to go to find Jed's answer?

What you ask for is already being done!
Well I guess my whole write ups has failed to convey what I want then.
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Mat
2016-12-04 16:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi again Riz

First of all; I appreciate your questions. I tried to answer them the best
I could, which included questioning some of them because some were based on
misunderstandings or assumptions that didn't make sense to me. Another
option would be to not reply but I think that is less constructive.


I disagree; consider any internet search engine for example. The idea to
Post by Riz
Post by Mat
put everything in a pretty tree structure was abandoned decades ago.
Well here is the first link to the google search "Examples of Best
Documentation".
https://documentor.in/2148/best-examples-product-documentation-guides/
What all of the have in common, is organization.
Well, my point was that even something as huge as the web can be searchable
by using a different approach. Documentation does not have to be put under
hierarchical titles in the traditional sense, to be useful. And,
especially, it wouldn't necessarily have to be *manually* organized in such
a way. TW provides us with rather powerful tools to organize stuff.


If you "know TW" then the learning curve to "know TWederation" should
Post by Riz
Post by Mat
probably not be that tricky.
Know TW being the keyword.
True.


Fetching means to copy what you want. At least in curren implementation.
Post by Riz
Post by Mat
There can also be a community aggregation for someting as important as
docs, i.e it can be an aggregating place much like tiddlywiki.com.
<http://tiddlywiki.com>
Here is a situation. I made a write-up on something. It is now part of the
documentation. UserB fetched it. Now I delete it. Tomorrow another person
is coming along looking for the write up. Will he be able to find the write
from UserB's copy? Remember UserB has not shared it from his wiki nor is he
aware of the fact that I have deleted it.
In the current(!!) implementation of TWederation, if UserB is not sharing
it well then he can't find it, there. If it is an important piece of
documentation, why was it only shared with UserB? Why not to a community
doc aggregation?


What else will happen tomorrow?
Post by Riz
I am going to disagree with your tone here. Should I file it under "Wits
and Sarcasm from Internet strangers?"
[ + ...what if Tiddlyspot closes down ]
First of all; no offense meant. My point is just that; Yes, what *will*
happen? Will there be a backup system? Will browsers start blocking some
key feature that TW itself relies on, not just TWedreation? We don't know
and it is hard to work preemptively on this. And who should work on this?
Nobody is getting paid here. We don't even have resources to have
documentation that people find sufficient. So it is probably better to deal
with these very-hard-to-predict-matters when/if they occur. You're right,
TiddlySpot won't last forever. Especially considering how much people like
you and I are paying them for their service. The risk of it closing down is
very much part of the whole system and we can only e joy it while it lasts,
just like free browsers and other free or paid services.


let me save you sime time: Ain't gonna happen. Not that I wouldn't want it
Post by Riz
Post by Mat
to happen but it has proven to simply not work, for several reasons.
Has such an effort where people are asked to submit documentation in
return for the help from this group already tried? Can you show a part
where it was tested?
Yes; tiddlywiki.org is one such attempt. One of the most successful ones, I
might add, and still not a success. But don't take my word for it; please
do go ahead. I'd add an article or two because I would want it to work. I
just "know" it won't. No offense.
Post by Riz
Besides, if people did already get the solution "from the group" i.e here
Post by Mat
on the boards(!) ...then it is already here and you can find it here.
Then pray tell me, how come this group begets several questions a day.
Yes, ironic, but I'd say it is because we're dealing with a very complex
product. Or perhaps very "unlimited" product and the community consists of
people with a wide variety of needs and levels of skill.
Post by Riz
How come people still come up empty when they look for -say - how to add a
border to a tiddler? or how to hide a single field? I do not think it is
the first time anyone wanted to have a button that moves a tiddler up the
story-river. It is an easy solution. Jed answered it beautifully and
demonstrated several methods to achieve the same. Now try and search for
"Move tiddler up" or "Move tiddler up the sory-river." How deep do you have
to go to find Jed's answer?
Yes, the search in Google groups is astonishingly poor considering it's
google.


Ok, hope this clarifies a bit.

Thanks for your thoughts, Riz.

<:-)
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Riz
2016-12-04 16:52:09 UTC
Permalink
I am ending with this post. I feel I am taking up a crusade nobody is
bothered about.

We can go to and fro for long time debating hypotheticals. An easy way for
refutation and clarification is actually setting up the documentation using
whatever platform you deem fit.
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Mat
2016-12-04 18:36:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riz
I am ending with this post. I feel I am taking up a crusade nobody is
bothered about.
We can go to and fro for long time debating hypotheticals. An easy way for
refutation and clarification is actually setting up the documentation using
whatever platform you deem fit.
I think many are bothered but it's a tricky one. There have been many ideas
over the years (including ideas about mediawiki, probably even myself
suggesting it) but it is a complex issue. I sincerely hope someone will
prove my pessimism wrong.

BTW, here is an idea <http://tiddlynodes.tiddlyspace.com/> I had some years
ago, for documentation. The idea, if I recall, was to scrape the google
group posts and convert them into tiddler chains that reflected the
discussion threads here, initially. But then they'd be editable and
taggable and because it is/was tiddlyspace people could include the wiki
and refine stuff. Like the absolute majority of my ideas, it went nowhere.
I didn't tell anyone about this particular idea except Eric, and I think I
only recently may have referred to it somewhere. Some ideas from it still
linger in my mind to be implemented in TWederation.

<:-)
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David Gifford
2016-12-04 22:27:25 UTC
Permalink
Wow it has been fun getting the back and forth from this thread in my
inbox. All I want to say is, wheels have a right to a little recreation,
too. Why would Josiah want to end their recreation? :-)

I hope something is worked out. My vote would be for twederation, but my
own contributions would most likely be on a TW of my own, and then if
anyone wants to copy and paste tiddlers from that into the twederation,
they could do that.
Post by Mat
Post by Riz
I am ending with this post. I feel I am taking up a crusade nobody is
bothered about.
We can go to and fro for long time debating hypotheticals. An easy way
for refutation and clarification is actually setting up the documentation
using whatever platform you deem fit.
I think many are bothered but it's a tricky one. There have been many
ideas over the years (including ideas about mediawiki, probably even myself
suggesting it) but it is a complex issue. I sincerely hope someone will
prove my pessimism wrong.
BTW, here is an idea <http://tiddlynodes.tiddlyspace.com/> I had some
years ago, for documentation. The idea, if I recall, was to scrape the
google group posts and convert them into tiddler chains that reflected the
discussion threads here, initially. But then they'd be editable and
taggable and because it is/was tiddlyspace people could include the wiki
and refine stuff. Like the absolute majority of my ideas, it went nowhere.
I didn't tell anyone about this particular idea except Eric, and I think I
only recently may have referred to it somewhere. Some ideas from it still
linger in my mind to be implemented in TWederation.
<:-)
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David Gifford
2016-12-04 22:28:06 UTC
Permalink
I should say, though, that I would be completely fine with it being
MediaWiki.
Post by David Gifford
Wow it has been fun getting the back and forth from this thread in my
inbox. All I want to say is, wheels have a right to a little recreation,
too. Why would Josiah want to end their recreation? :-)
I hope something is worked out. My vote would be for twederation, but my
own contributions would most likely be on a TW of my own, and then if
anyone wants to copy and paste tiddlers from that into the twederation,
they could do that.
Post by Mat
Post by Riz
I am ending with this post. I feel I am taking up a crusade nobody is
bothered about.
We can go to and fro for long time debating hypotheticals. An easy way
for refutation and clarification is actually setting up the documentation
using whatever platform you deem fit.
I think many are bothered but it's a tricky one. There have been many
ideas over the years (including ideas about mediawiki, probably even myself
suggesting it) but it is a complex issue. I sincerely hope someone will
prove my pessimism wrong.
BTW, here is an idea <http://tiddlynodes.tiddlyspace.com/> I had some
years ago, for documentation. The idea, if I recall, was to scrape the
google group posts and convert them into tiddler chains that reflected the
discussion threads here, initially. But then they'd be editable and
taggable and because it is/was tiddlyspace people could include the wiki
and refine stuff. Like the absolute majority of my ideas, it went nowhere.
I didn't tell anyone about this particular idea except Eric, and I think I
only recently may have referred to it somewhere. Some ideas from it still
linger in my mind to be implemented in TWederation.
<:-)
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Josiah
2016-12-05 11:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Mat

That idea of leveraging off Google Groups via scraping posts is a neat one.
But, I think it would be unworkable retrospectively without the scraper
TAGGING them and doing that accurately for what sounds like swathes of
history. It looks to me far too complex & time consuming.

A more modest proposal would be to do that CONTEMPORANEOUSLY, or near
contemporaneously, knowing that re-presenting the GG threads in some kind
of ordered way would build, over time, a very useful resource.

That was a major theme that I & Riz reflected in our different ways too.

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Mat
BTW, here is an idea <http://tiddlynodes.tiddlyspace.com/> I had some
years ago, for documentation. The idea, if I recall, was to scrape the
google group posts and convert them into tiddler chains that reflected the
discussion threads here, initially. But then they'd be editable and
taggable and because it is/was tiddlyspace people could include the wiki
and refine stuff. Like the absolute majority of my ideas, it went nowhere.
I didn't tell anyone about this particular idea except Eric, and I think I
only recently may have referred to it somewhere. Some ideas from it still
linger in my mind to be implemented in TWederation.
<:-)
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Josiah
2016-12-04 16:38:25 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Mat

Two points. Organisation is not necessarily hierarchy. Modest hierarchies
are ubiquitously used on the internet to organise stuff.

In my understanding, Riz isn't aspiring to a system of systems. He's
sensibly pointing out that right now finding (past) solutions is UNWIELDY &
largely unworkable in this Group. Like me he's particularly looking at a
central forum for emergent potential documentation, which is THIS Google
Group. I just wrote at some length about that and think his proposed
solution is as good as I have seen to date.

IMO, THIS group is itself THE instance of the issue & the solution. The
problem is not the people, its the way Google Groups works that is
magnifying the problem.

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Riz
1. Organization: Having documentation alone will not do. It must be
Post by Riz
organized under titles and subtitles and so and so.
I disagree; consider any internet search engine for example. The idea to
put everything in a pretty tree structure was abandoned decades ago. In the
latest hangout we even discussed the problems with a structure for the TW
controlpanel.
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Jed Carty
2016-12-03 10:27:36 UTC
Permalink
I agree with Mat that a shared distributed documentation effort is the only
real way for a community like this to create the sort of documentation we
want. Although I may be more than a little biased since I made twederation.
Hopefully I will be getting back to it very soon. I am excited about the
new TiddlyServer work that was just released, that may be sufficient
motivation for me to get back into everything.
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Jed Carty
2016-12-03 20:09:56 UTC
Permalink
For the learning curve at least, if we have things set up with the
federated wikis than all that would be required is for someone to make
tiddlers, tag them with the appropriate tags and send a message. The idea
is that if you want to contribute to the documentation than you put a wiki
online (using tiddlyspot will be just fine for this), install the
federation plugin and a plugin that has the tools for making documentation,
create the tiddlers and then click a button that is part of the
documentation creation plugin. The button will send a message to some
non-tiddlywiki service, currently we have integration with google forms,
and that will alert whoever is gathering the documentation that there is a
new submission.

The person or people who are collecting the documentation will have plugins
that check for new messages and then using the information stored in the
messages fetch the new tiddlers from whoever submitted them. If you can
make put a wiki on tiddlyspot and install a plugin than you should be able
to contribute to the documentation. A lot of the problems are going to be
from the UI, but Mat is pretty good at making UIs.

Scalibility is another problem. The completely serverless version
TWederation uses gets unwieldy when you have a lot of wikis to check, but
there are other projects that are using other methods of storing tiddlers
and we could just integrate them into the federated wikis. It is a
technical problem but it is one that I am looking forward to working on it.

As far as organization goes, this isn't going to have any problems we don't
already have, and it is going to let anyone work on improving it so it may
even be better.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2016-12-03 20:45:57 UTC
Permalink
For organization, it will be necessary to overwrite/rewrite an existing
tiddler that someone else originated. It will also be necessary to delete
tiddlers that someone else originated. How does Twederation currently deal
with those scenarios?

Thanks,
Mark
Post by Jed Carty
As far as organization goes, this isn't going to have any problems we
don't already have, and it is going to let anyone work on improving it so
it may even be better.
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Riz
2016-12-04 03:26:38 UTC
Permalink
Philip actually worded it better - the realization of a non-technical user
"Wow you can do all that!!"

So let us summarize the discussion up until this point. Pending Jeremy's
clarification whether we are permitted to undertake such an effort at all,
we are considering two main options

1. Create a mediawiki
2. Twederation



a. As Mark said - The size of an organized TW file. Assuming the userbase
of TW5 is gonna grow, the use-cases and alternative methods are going to
grow into hundreds - for each widget or common task.

b. The work flow Jed outlined is not a exactly keeping it simple. Here is a
hypothetical case. A user is working on a project using TW for overview of
his shop. He asks the group a question and gets an answer. If we are asking
him to document it, the steps he will have to go through will be.
1. Create a tiddlyspot account and login
2. Download a new tiddlywiki, host it on tiddlyspot, and write the
documentation tiddlers.
3. Install the federation plugin and the proposed documentation plugin
that will alert the person who is collecting the documentation?
4. Finally there should be one or several people who is supposed to
actually add it to documentation ?

What is the advantage of Twederation here? We can as well ask the person to
email it to the person collecting documentation, right?

I was hoping to avoid the "person collecting documentation" part. The user
should be able to add it to the organized collection himself. The
moderaters should only be burdened with overview of "is it okey."

yours sincerely
Riz.
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Sylvain Naudin
2016-12-05 12:14:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riz
So let us summarize the discussion up until this point. Pending Jeremy's
clarification whether we are permitted to undertake such an effort at all,
we are considering two main options
1. Create a mediawiki
2. Twederation
Bonjour :)

I would add two options :

3. write on http://flossmanuals.net/ wich is a great collaborative place to
write documentation for open source projects

4. migrate from Google Groups to a real forum tools, like Discourse (I use
it for french community even if it cost me a little, it's my contribution
to promote TW). We can have most of all Google Groups fonctionality (like
email post) and even more, and there is a wiki inside, so it is really fast
and easy to convert a thread to a wiki format.

Best regards,
Sylvain
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Rizwan Ishak
2016-12-05 12:39:10 UTC
Permalink
That is a really good suggestion - a proper forum. Even reddit would have
been a good alternative. Last time someone suggested this, the objection
raised was that the amount of data in this group cannot be migrated. But
that is sunken cost fallacy, we have created a non-ideal past doesn't mean
we can't change.
Post by Riz
So let us summarize the discussion up until this point. Pending Jeremy's
clarification whether we are permitted to undertake such an effort at all,
we are considering two main options
1. Create a mediawiki
2. Twederation
Bonjour :)

I would add two options :

3. write on http://flossmanuals.net/ wich is a great collaborative place to
write documentation for open source projects

4. migrate from Google Groups to a real forum tools, like Discourse (I use
it for french community even if it cost me a little, it's my contribution
to promote TW). We can have most of all Google Groups fonctionality (like
email post) and even more, and there is a wiki inside, so it is really fast
and easy to convert a thread to a wiki format.

Best regards,
Sylvain
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Josiah
2016-12-05 13:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Riz & Sylvian

Since Google Groups does not have any organised history at all, in practice
past learning is just dropping off the cliff into a void once a thread is
completed.

A forum that had tagging and proper search/filter mechanisms would be a
huge step in the right direction IMO. I think the point is we need to Tag
and otherwise index stuff AS IT HAPPENS. From that would grow meaningful
structure which could be leveraged further. As is everything is the same
once sunk in the Google Group swamp.

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Rizwan Ishak
That is a really good suggestion - a proper forum. Even reddit would have
been a good alternative. Last time someone suggested this, the objection
raised was that the amount of data in this group cannot be migrated. But
that is sunken cost fallacy, we have created a non-ideal past doesn't mean
we can't change.
Post by Riz
So let us summarize the discussion up until this point. Pending Jeremy's
clarification whether we are permitted to undertake such an effort at all,
we are considering two main options
1. Create a mediawiki
2. Twederation
Bonjour :)
3. write on http://flossmanuals.net/ wich is a great collaborative place
to write documentation for open source projects
4. migrate from Google Groups to a real forum tools, like Discourse (I use
it for french community even if it cost me a little, it's my contribution
to promote TW). We can have most of all Google Groups fonctionality (like
email post) and even more, and there is a wiki inside, so it is really fast
and easy to convert a thread to a wiki format.
Best regards,
Sylvain
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Jed Carty
2016-12-03 20:14:34 UTC
Permalink
As far as giving someone access to something on your harddrive, no part of
how the federation is set up does that. If you are running a webserver from
your computer than they can have read access to it, but it is impossible to
use what I made to affect any wiki other than the one you own. Any danger
from that would have to come from how you are serving the file and is
independent of tiddlywiki or how they are federated.

Everything that is done is done in the browser or by whatever saver is
normally used by a wiki, you actually have less access through what I made
for federating the wikis than you do if you load a tiddlyspot page that you
don't have the password for.
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Jed Carty
2016-12-03 21:47:01 UTC
Permalink
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Jed Carty
2016-12-04 08:14:32 UTC
Permalink
In my case you wouldn't necessarily have to have the person who received
the answer write it up. It would mean that anyone who has one of the
tiddlyspot wikis already could easily contribute to the documentation
without having to do more than add to their existing wiki. There are a
number of us who already have wikis on tiddlyspot for documentation, this
is just a method to make sharing updates easier.

Like I said, a lot of this will be social.
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Riz
2016-12-04 12:41:04 UTC
Permalink
It would mean that anyone who has one of the tiddlyspot wikis already
could easily contribute to the documentation without having to do more than
add to their existing wiki.
That undermines the very need of this thread. If one or a group of people
are ready to scan each and every post in this group and document it, the
existing github method would do too.

The idea is to widen the net of document contributers and ensuring steady
flow of documentation by making everyone a contributor. For that the steps
need to be as simple as possible.
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Jed Carty
2016-12-04 14:04:54 UTC
Permalink
But if we do it through github than it would have to be on the main site
and Jeremy would have to update tiddlywiki.com to add anything, and we
would be restricted to what should be on the main site, which would mean we
wouldn't be able to have the wide base of small examples and everything
that we want to have. I was collecting things from the group for a while
and Tobias has been very good about making examples out of everything, but
recently both of busy with other things. So if we can make a system where
we can have more people do that and make the results available to everyone
instead of just on a few more well known sites than it will be a much
better system than what we have now.
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Josiah
2016-12-04 14:14:12 UTC
Permalink
Ciao all

There are parts of this that are also responses to Riz, Matt, Jed & Mark. S.

I'll make a few comments that have bearing on this discussion ... and,
hopefully, next steps.This repeats a lot of themes that will be obvious to
many on TW but think its useful to especially keep the context very clear:
Namely, a HUGE issue is simply the DYSFUNCTIONAL nature of GOOGLE GROUPS.

1 - RIZ is accurate in highlighting that many threads within this group are
ALREADY (implicit) steps to documentation and that LEVERAGEING off that by
getting those existing worthy threads compacted (explicitly) into...

(a) statement of the ISSUE to solve;
(b) the SOLUTION;
(c) archived in an ORDERED way you can find them
= One economical, time sparing, way forward.

IMO, THIS approach makes intuitive sense and perhaps has more chance of
working than previous documentation efforts.

2a - PART of the issue at (1) is that this GOOGLE GROUP, though good for
ongoing discussions, is SERIOUSLY DEFICIENT as an archive. Its EXTREMELY
difficult to find relevant posts from the past because there is NO TAGGING
of posts used (at the moment) and the search mechanism is VERY CRUDE...

2b - ... further, take this discussion we are having... In the months I
have been in this group I have read and commented in several extensive
discussions of DOCUMENTATION ISSUES. I have seen people come and go with
attempts at addressing them. I have seen people create TW's aimed at
helping beginners that then disappear from any awareness they existed.
Sustained TRACTION did not happen. I think a large part of that is the
MEDIUM for documentation needs to be...

(a) sustainable;
(b) uses one location / mechanism;
(c) exists independent of any one writer;
(d) is designed optimally for documentation;
(e) is easy for beginners to use.

2c - NOTE: WE, right now, in this very discussion, have not gone back and
looked at previous discussions of this topic and cite them because the way
the Google Group archive works is TOO UNWIELDY. OUR behaviour also
instances the issue--NOT leveraging off what is already discussed and
known. Result: Danger of re-creating the wheel.

Documentation is the OPPOSITE of this behaviour, its meant to end
unnecessary going round things again & again. The medium you are in MATTERS
to the outcome. Fact is Google Groups is CRAP at cumulative ORDERED
knowledge. I believe that is a BIG part of the cause of the problems TW's
users face over "missing documentation". Its not so much it has not been
created (missing, as in "never existed"), more that is in BURIED fragments
lost & dispersed in Google Group history.

3 - END the RECREATION OF THE WHEEL. The enthusiastic energy that people
put into asking questions and replying to them is huge in this group. The
good will to help is unrivaled.

BUT I see enormous redundancy over time where many questions & issues are
VARIATIONS of something asked a ZILLION times before. In short, Google
Groups eat their own history. SO documenting what is useful needs, to be
sustainable, to be CONTEMPORANEOUS with resolution of issues in the Group,
and needs to be saved elsewhere in a well indexed/tagged way.

Re-read (1) above.

4 - TWEDERATION. MATT, JED & MARK S. There has been discussion of whether
Twederation is an appropriate medium for documentation. Whilst I think it
could be eventually be a vehicle to shared documentation I'm very skeptical
if it should be the first stop on this. Why?

(a) for beginner users, who most need documentation, TWED is not yet
integrated enough into basic TW. It's in danger of being CATCH-22 ... "...
you can't get to the documentation until you have read the documentation on
how to get to it.";
(b) it would have to work transparently; such that the new user would need
to do virtually nothing to set it up;
(c) As far as I understand it, Twederation is not dedicated to
documentation alone and all the issues of how you "document documentation"
(vital to usage; you must be able to find what relevantly answers ones'
queries) are not touched on at all yet. In short there are ...
(i) TOO MANY UNKOWNS right now;
(ii) It NOT OPTIMAL for beginners as is.

So, my conclusion: Though TWED is a really great innovation it's a thing of
the far future as far as the documentation issue goes IMO.

I feel bringing TWED into this debate without a finished product demoing
how it could optimize documentation is muddying the waters.


Riz's suggestion of using extant systems like MediaWiki still seems in the
right kinda direction. A properly designed TiddlyWiki could also do the job
though it would need an update mechanism for contributions and people to
maintain it to be sustainable. And that has proven a big issue in the past.

I will comment on the USE CASE points that MARK.S raised in a later email.

Best wishes
Josiah
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Thomas Elmiger
2016-12-04 22:33:19 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Josiah & Co.

Josiah, you had me at 2c – it strikes me, that one big advantage of
MediaWiki is it’s versioning: you have the last summary for a topic on one
page while it’s history and possibly a discussion are just one click away.
For me as a simple user they live on the same page. As we all know, TW5
does not have (built in) versioning, neither does Google Groups.

As TW5 content can be shared as text or JSON, solutions could be attached
to and imported from any documentation system and thus become independent
from the availability of private wikis. So I do not see a TW system as the
only practical solution.

On the other hand: Who should manage a central documentation for the
community? This task should not be underestimated 
 I am afraid there is no
easy solution here.

Cheers
Thomas
Post by Josiah
2c - NOTE: WE, right now, in this very discussion, have not gone back and
looked at previous discussions of this topic and cite them because the way
the Google Group archive works is TOO UNWIELDY. OUR behaviour also
instances the issue--NOT leveraging off what is already discussed and
known. Result: Danger of re-creating the wheel.
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Hiru Yoru
2016-12-04 14:26:12 UTC
Permalink
Has anybody considered making an official Wikipedia-esque page where
anybody can come along and add documentation, edit, or expand it if they
feel like it? I mean, it worked for Wikipedia. They have a whole world full
of people contributing to it, and all they had to do was set the site up
and allow people to edit it. This isn't just the case with Wikipedia, but
with plenty of other wiki sites, some topic-specific like Wikia.

There could even be a section for plugins and extensions where people could
add code to their own plugins/extensions, which would help those learning
about the inner-workings of TiddlyWiki, by example.

I don't know if anyone's proposed this, but it seems very workable to me.
It also doesn't require some vast organizational paradigm shift to happen
in order to implement. No groups need to be formed, people don't need to
meet up or chat or take meeting minutes. You just set up the wiki and then
let everybody do whatever work they can. Have two sections -- one for
Classic and one for TW5 (because *both* are still in use). Then, just let
people contribute.

I mean, you need the hosting space, but after that, the community will take
over.

That's my thinking, anyway,
Hiru
Post by Jed Carty
But if we do it through github than it would have to be on the main site
and Jeremy would have to update tiddlywiki.com to add anything, and we
would be restricted to what should be on the main site, which would mean we
wouldn't be able to have the wide base of small examples and everything
that we want to have. I was collecting things from the group for a while
and Tobias has been very good about making examples out of everything, but
recently both of busy with other things. So if we can make a system where
we can have more people do that and make the results available to everyone
instead of just on a few more well known sites than it will be a much
better system than what we have now.
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Stacy Cunningham
2016-12-06 06:45:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi everyone,

I say, why does it have to be one way or the other? Why not both?
TWederation and something like a MediaWiki?

They both have their benefits and approach the problems differently. The
former seems to be more of a search engine of different ideas while the
latter is a more orderly instructional guide.

Find who wants to do what and let them go at it.


All the best,
Stacy
Post by Josiah
Ciao tutti
In the last two weeks I've had extensive private correspondence with three
folk over on Twitter who want to know where to find the "real
documentation" for TiddlyWiki. After pointing to what documentation there
is I suggested they ask in the group on specific things they want to do.
If I hadn't engaged in that discussion with them I would never have know
there are potential users who are likely passing on from not being able to
grasp enough quickly enough to be able to utilise TW well.
I think its a problem (for them at least) as is.
Just saying ...
Josiah
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Raymond McDowell
2016-12-06 08:57:12 UTC
Permalink
Just a thought after having an exchange with former ShadowPlan users who
are uncomfortable moving to TiddlyWiki.

Would it be workable to have an empty TW5 with a set of plug-ins and macros
set up to provide ready made and intuitive experience for new users? Why
can't the download (perhaps a zip file) already have tiddlyfox included, a
checklist macro that uses fields to designate the tag the list is based on,
the rename macro and a comprehensive set of functions that do not initially
require digging under the hood?

The key is making the initial experience intuitive and easy to use

Ray
Post by Josiah
Ciao tutti
In the last two weeks I've had extensive private correspondence with three
folk over on Twitter who want to know where to find the "real
documentation" for TiddlyWiki. After pointing to what documentation there
is I suggested they ask in the group on specific things they want to do.
If I hadn't engaged in that discussion with them I would never have know
there are potential users who are likely passing on from not being able to
grasp enough quickly enough to be able to utilise TW well.
I think its a problem (for them at least) as is.
Just saying ...
Josiah
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PMario
2016-12-06 11:14:31 UTC
Permalink
Hi Folks,
Following the thread with interest. ... Just didn't have time to respond,
because it will be a "wall of text" - warning :)
Post by Raymond McDowell
Just a thought after having an exchange with former ShadowPlan users who
are uncomfortable moving to TiddlyWiki.
ShadowPlan? .. Do you have a link?
Post by Raymond McDowell
Would it be workable to have an empty TW5 with a set of plug-ins and
macros set up to provide ready made and intuitive experience for new users?
As Jed pointed out. That's what editions are for.
Post by Raymond McDowell
Why can't the download (perhaps a zip file) already have tiddlyfox
included,
TiddlyFox is a browser plugin. So it should be installed from the Mozilla
addOn platform. Installing browser addOns from untrusted sources is a big
security risk!
Post by Raymond McDowell
a checklist macro that uses fields to designate the tag the list is based
on, the rename macro and a comprehensive set of functions that do not
initially require digging under the hood?
--- OT --- @Raymond This response is OffTopic and I don't want to hijack
the thread. So you should open a new thread if you want to respond to the
following section.

IMO this "one" liner seems to be simple to implement but it doesn't contain
enough information to create something that you want. eg:

- there is no "rename macro" in the core. Are you talking about "search
and replace" functionality?

- checklist macro ... is simple .. but .. "checklist macro that uses
fields to designate the tag the list is based on" is too vague, to know
what you want since "fields" and "tags" are 2 slightly different things in
TW.

- "a comprehensive set of functions .." can be anything and everything,
depending on who you talk to.

------------ end OT

have fun!
mario
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2016-12-06 15:20:08 UTC
Permalink
What is shadowplan? Link? My google search only wanted to find "shadowplay".

Mark
Post by Raymond McDowell
Just a thought after having an exchange with former ShadowPlan users who
are uncomfortable moving to TiddlyWiki.
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David Gifford
2016-12-06 15:22:57 UTC
Permalink
http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/about.html

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 9:20 AM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
What is shadowplan? Link? My google search only wanted to find
"shadowplay".
Mark
Post by Raymond McDowell
Just a thought after having an exchange with former ShadowPlan users who
are uncomfortable moving to TiddlyWiki.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2016-12-06 15:59:11 UTC
Permalink
Oh, I probably used that more than a decade ago before my palm died.

Seems like shadowplan works a lot like WorkFlowy, which could be emulated
with view templates and the TOC macro. See attached.

Mark
Post by David Gifford
http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/about.html
On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 9:20 AM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
What is shadowplan? Link? My google search only wanted to find "shadowplay".
Mark
Post by Raymond McDowell
Just a thought after having an exchange with former ShadowPlan users who
are uncomfortable moving to TiddlyWiki.
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Jed Carty
2016-12-06 09:26:35 UTC
Permalink
Raymond,

That is the idea behind having different editions. Unfortunately there
aren't many editions created or supported. So if you have something you
want put together a wiki for an edition and we can see about getting it
listed. As far as tiddlyfox goes, you generally get it from within the
browser interface so including it in a zip would be a bit weird.

I made this a while ago to address what you are talking about but never
received any feedback about it so I haven't bothered with it in a long
time. http://nolearningrequired-full.tiddlyspot.com
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Josiah
2016-12-06 19:27:09 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Jed, Mark S. & tutti

Seeing FULL WORKING TIDDLYWIKIS that exemplify different aspects of what TW
can do is, in my case, the single biggest HELP.

I am not good with "in principle" minimalist demos or "foo-bar" stuff.
That's my cognitive limitation, I think, and its a bit more extreme than
normal. Though maybe not a million miles away from some beginner's
experiences.

I have learnt the MOST from FULL CONTENT TW's that do things I need to do.
In these cases I can grasp the underlying code much more easily BECAUSE I
can see SUBSTANTIVE OUTPUT.

IMO, a simple GALLERY of extant full TW's solving different issues would
help. Of course there are ALREADY pointers to exemplars within the core
documentation. And well as galleries that exist, but really not on TW5 and
not up to date.

Its just a fact that many of the most exiciting TW's I will never get to
see because their authors are creating them (a) offline; (b) or if online
then not specifically identified or linked to to look at. You have to catch
them as you go along reading the Goggle Group when they come up in
discussion.

In fact we don't even really know what exists. TW does not track anything.

This is NOT a complaint. It's an observation. But it has some bearing on
documentation. Why?

Because seeing finished, functional, replete TW's is likely one of the MOST
important routes to understanding USE CASES. It certainly is for me.

SO ... perhaps PART of concerns about documentation could be encouragement
of more people to upload their TW's so that people can look at them. IMO
that might solve a LOT of issues to do with HOW to use TW for DIFFERENT
purposes (i.e. USE CASES).

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Jed Carty
Raymond,
That is the idea behind having different editions. Unfortunately there
aren't many editions created or supported. So if you have something you
want put together a wiki for an edition and we can see about getting it
listed. As far as tiddlyfox goes, you generally get it from within the
browser interface so including it in a zip would be a bit weird.
I made this a while ago to address what you are talking about but never
received any feedback about it so I haven't bothered with it in a long
time. http://nolearningrequired-full.tiddlyspot.com
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2016-12-06 20:00:02 UTC
Permalink
If that's what you want, just submit a write-up to Jeremy/github about any
new sites you find, and encourage others to do the same. There's already a
short list at tiddlywiki.com/Community/Examples.

We could have a sticky thread (Gallery) in this forum nominating sites as
they are discovered, and whoever wants to could do the github submission.

Mark
Post by Josiah
Ciao Jed, Mark S. & tutti
Seeing FULL WORKING TIDDLYWIKIS that exemplify different aspects of what
TW can do is, in my case, the single biggest HELP.
I am not good with "in principle" minimalist demos or "foo-bar" stuff.
That's my cognitive limitation, I think, and its a bit more extreme than
normal. Though maybe not a million miles away from some beginner's
experiences.
I have learnt the MOST from FULL CONTENT TW's that do things I need to do.
In these cases I can grasp the underlying code much more easily BECAUSE I
can see SUBSTANTIVE OUTPUT.
IMO, a simple GALLERY of extant full TW's solving different issues would
help. Of course there are ALREADY pointers to exemplars within the core
documentation. And well as galleries that exist, but really not on TW5 and
not up to date.
Its just a fact that many of the most exiciting TW's I will never get to
see because their authors are creating them (a) offline; (b) or if online
then not specifically identified or linked to to look at. You have to catch
them as you go along reading the Goggle Group when they come up in
discussion.
In fact we don't even really know what exists. TW does not track anything.
This is NOT a complaint. It's an observation. But it has some bearing on
documentation. Why?
Because seeing finished, functional, replete TW's is likely one of the
MOST important routes to understanding USE CASES. It certainly is for me.
SO ... perhaps PART of concerns about documentation could be encouragement
of more people to upload their TW's so that people can look at them. IMO
that might solve a LOT of issues to do with HOW to use TW for DIFFERENT
purposes (i.e. USE CASES).
Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Jed Carty
Raymond,
That is the idea behind having different editions. Unfortunately there
aren't many editions created or supported. So if you have something you
want put together a wiki for an edition and we can see about getting it
listed. As far as tiddlyfox goes, you generally get it from within the
browser interface so including it in a zip would be a bit weird.
I made this a while ago to address what you are talking about but never
received any feedback about it so I haven't bothered with it in a long
time. http://nolearningrequired-full.tiddlyspot.com
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Jeremy Ruston
2016-12-10 13:37:59 UTC
Permalink
My apologies for being quiet on this thread so far. It’s mainly due to being insanely busy with day job work, punctuated by a bad cold. Thank you to everyone for taking the trouble to contribute. I’ve read all the messages with great interest. It’s wonderful that there are so many people who feel passionately about the issue, and are prepared to help, and frustrating that we’ve been less than stellar at harnessing that energy.

First, I agree strongly with the consensus that:

* The existing documentation isn’t serving the needs of our users
* The update cycle for content changes to tiddlywiki.com is unacceptably slow
* GitHub presents a huge psychological burden for would-be contributors
* Google Groups is pretty poor

I have always believed that my own primary focus should be on building and maintaining the authoritative core reference documentation. As discussed in this thread, such documentation cannot meet the needs of all users, but it is an essential bedrock on which all other documentation needs to be based.

Beyond that reference material, we need multiple different tutorials to meet the needs of different users. The most useful material should be on tiddlywiki.com (such as the material that Dave contributed), and the rest should be easy to find from there.

Related, we also sorely lack a convenient place to share snippets of TW wikitext.

Beyond that, I generally think:

a) TiddlyWiki is both powerful and complex: by any reasonable dimensions, it is several orders of magnitude more complex than something like Workflowy. With that level of complexity, for many users, just learning the vocabulary that enables them to use documentation is a huge barrier — in fact, even if we had great, complete documentation, I believe that we would find that many users still wouldn’t read it (that is a common experience for other projects). As Josiah has highlighted, just getting saving to work is a barrier for many users. Even if we reduce the number of clicks, the process is conceptually too far away from familiar paradigms to be intuitive for most users. The solution is simple: switch to using TiddlyWiki in a server-based configuration, but you lose the offline capability. That’s the trade-off: conventional usability vs. the ability to do something that no mainstream web application can support

b) GitHub isn’t the only barrier to contributing documentation on tiddlywiki.com. It may not look like it, but a lot of effort over the years has been taken by several people to try to standardise the formatting and presentation. For example, there are a bunch of macros and templates that thread together the filter documentation. There’s a level of complexity to those macros that will never be intuitive to a casual user, but are needed in order to help us maintain consistency

c) Ultimately and ideally, we should base TiddlyWiki documentation efforts on TiddlyWiki itself

d) I struggle with the expectation that the documentation can or should directly address a question like "How do you append to a list a title with spaces using a text reference”. It’s both complex and specific, and it lacks enough information for a definitive answer (I loved Mark’s response about buying a book on first aid and complaining that there's no chapter on removing kidneys). Anyhow, responding to that question involves several different mechanisms, and thus would be very hard to anticipate as something to be answered directly in the documentation. Put another way, I see TiddlyWiki as being made up of a relatively small number of parts that can be combined in lots of different ways. It’s reasonable for us to document those parts exhaustively, but we will never be able to directly document every way in which they can be combined

I’d also add a few clarifications:

* The current TWederation work by Jed, Mat and others is primarily focussed on peer-to-peer federation. That’s a fundamentally tricky thing. Like TiddlyWiki saving itself in the browser, it goes beyond what browsers are designed to do. But it works, and opens up some fascinating use cases. Meanwhile, we can also do federation on the server under Node.js, where the technical difficulties melt away. That’s how the threaded discussion on http://tiddlywiki.com/tiddlywiki-eu-meetup-2016/ was built; the result is a simple HTML file that downloads swiftly.

* Riz mentions the problem that off-the-shelf JavaScripts are hard to integrate with TiddlyWiki. Again that’s a trade-off; partly related to security, but also architectural concerns: TW5 could have stuck with the 10-year old jQuery style architecture, or it could have adopted the newer virtual DOM style architecture that’s now been adopted by Angular, React and all the other leading web frameworks of the last few years — many of them have the same difficulties with integrating older-style scripts. TW5’s choices mean that we get serverside rendering which I think is generally worth it. I should also mention that it’s pretty easy for a developer to integrate non-DOM-oriented 3rd party libraries. There are nearly a dozen 3rd party libraries already packaged as plugins in the core library, and many more elsewhere.

* To answer another question posed by Riz, I don’t think that the Tiddlyverse is at all averse to the idea of setting up an organized community documentation.

* Mark asks whether the stuff currently in TiddlyWiki now technically copyrighted, or can it be ported to another working environment. This is a good example of something that should be crystal clear from the existing documentation: all of TiddlyWiki's documentation is made available under the same BSD license as the code. I’ve no idea what the copyright position is on the Google Group posts, mind you.

Thinking about some specific proposals from this thread:

* I’m not averse to evaluating Discourse as an interim solution. I’m not sure whether it would be better to replace or augment the existing Google Group

* I do not favour adopting MediaWiki, mainly because TW’s wiki syntax is confusing enough without burdening authors with an additional syntax (people will long memories will recall that tiddlywiki.org was based on mediawiki in 2008/9)

Please let me know if I’ve missed any points in the thread,

Best wishes

Jeremy
If that's what you want, just submit a write-up to Jeremy/github about any new sites you find, and encourage others to do the same. There's already a short list at tiddlywiki.com/Community/Examples <http://tiddlywiki.com/Community/Examples>.
We could have a sticky thread (Gallery) in this forum nominating sites as they are discovered, and whoever wants to could do the github submission.
Mark
Ciao Jed, Mark S. & tutti
Seeing FULL WORKING TIDDLYWIKIS that exemplify different aspects of what TW can do is, in my case, the single biggest HELP.
I am not good with "in principle" minimalist demos or "foo-bar" stuff. That's my cognitive limitation, I think, and its a bit more extreme than normal. Though maybe not a million miles away from some beginner's experiences.
I have learnt the MOST from FULL CONTENT TW's that do things I need to do. In these cases I can grasp the underlying code much more easily BECAUSE I can see SUBSTANTIVE OUTPUT.
IMO, a simple GALLERY of extant full TW's solving different issues would help. Of course there are ALREADY pointers to exemplars within the core documentation. And well as galleries that exist, but really not on TW5 and not up to date.
Its just a fact that many of the most exiciting TW's I will never get to see because their authors are creating them (a) offline; (b) or if online then not specifically identified or linked to to look at. You have to catch them as you go along reading the Goggle Group when they come up in discussion.
In fact we don't even really know what exists. TW does not track anything.
This is NOT a complaint. It's an observation. But it has some bearing on documentation. Why?
Because seeing finished, functional, replete TW's is likely one of the MOST important routes to understanding USE CASES. It certainly is for me.
SO ... perhaps PART of concerns about documentation could be encouragement of more people to upload their TW's so that people can look at them. IMO that might solve a LOT of issues to do with HOW to use TW for DIFFERENT purposes (i.e. USE CASES).
Best wishes
Josiah
Raymond,
That is the idea behind having different editions. Unfortunately there aren't many editions created or supported. So if you have something you want put together a wiki for an edition and we can see about getting it listed. As far as tiddlyfox goes, you generally get it from within the browser interface so including it in a zip would be a bit weird.
I made this a while ago to address what you are talking about but never received any feedback about it so I haven't bothered with it in a long time. http://nolearningrequired-full.tiddlyspot.com <http://nolearningrequired-full.tiddlyspot.com/>
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Riz
2016-12-10 15:56:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jeremy

First of all, I did not intent to cast doubts upon the intend of the group
when I asked why are we averse to the idea of community documentation, was
merely pointing out inability to deliver an easy system.

2 points.

1. The platform of choice pending to be agreed upon, how about the
suggestion to ask the users to update their posts with a summary of their
answers?As I said already in a previous post, here is how I see it.

1. Pin to the top of the group, at least for some time, a set of
formatting and styling instructions.
2. When a user asks a question and he gets an answer, he should simply
edit his question and add the answer according to the format.

This workflow provides some advantages. One is the obvious delegation
of work. Whoever is collecting documentation wherever he wishes to, won't
it be easier if he can simply copy and paste these rather than writing it
up himself?
I understand the documentation macros and all, but community
documentation can be held to a different, simpler standards, right? Users
who asks questions and are able to follow instructions to resolve it, can
obviously write that up too. The only hurdle is it should be a binding
agreement in the community.

2. If you are strongly considering DISCOURSE, I would like to propose
reddit as a contender. Here is my points to consider reddit

1. It provides a forum free of cost.
2. Creating an account is just a matter of creating a username and
password. If you do not plan to amass reddit points, you can have a
different reddit account literally everytime you log in.
3. It has an inbuilt Wiki too. As a matter of fact we are collecting a
comprehensive list of plugins for TW5 in reddit wiki here
https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/wiki/pluginsandresources. Currently
it has more than 200 plugins listed.
4. You can opt-in for other options too, like email notifications.
5. Provisions for Automoderation. You can set it to automatically tag
posts based on keywords, create weekly posts and stick it to the top of
thread etc. This would help with organizing the posts at a later point as
you can list posts based on tags.
6. Last but not least, a casual internet user is much more likely to
come across TiddlyWiki in reddit over Discourse or google groups. Reddit
promotes its active and upcoming subreddits. Reddit userbase spans far and
wide.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2016-12-10 18:17:30 UTC
Permalink
How about a thread that gets pinned to the top where new documentation
entries can be posted?

People who ask questions aren't necessarily good at documentation, and it
might be pouring cold water on the whole discourse thing to demand it of
them. But collecting finished responses into one thread, thus making it
easy(ier) to incorporate into the main tiddlywiki, seems doable.

Mark
Post by Riz
Hi Jeremy
First of all, I did not intent to cast doubts upon the intend of the group
when I asked why are we averse to the idea of community documentation, was
merely pointing out inability to deliver an easy system.
2 points.
1. The platform of choice pending to be agreed upon, how about the
suggestion to ask the users to update their posts with a summary of their
answers?As I said already in a previous post, here is how I see it.
1. Pin to the top of the group, at least for some time, a set of
formatting and styling instructions.
2. When a user asks a question and he gets an answer, he should
simply edit his question and add the answer according to the format.
This workflow provides some advantages. One is the obvious delegation
of work. Whoever is collecting documentation wherever he wishes to, won't
it be easier if he can simply copy and paste these rather than writing it
up himself?
I understand the documentation macros and all, but community
documentation can be held to a different, simpler standards, right? Users
who asks questions and are able to follow instructions to resolve it, can
obviously write that up too. The only hurdle is it should be a binding
agreement in the community.
2. If you are strongly considering DISCOURSE, I would like to propose
reddit as a contender. Here is my points to consider reddit
1. It provides a forum free of cost.
2. Creating an account is just a matter of creating a username and
password. If you do not plan to amass reddit points, you can have a
different reddit account literally everytime you log in.
3. It has an inbuilt Wiki too. As a matter of fact we are collecting a
comprehensive list of plugins for TW5 in reddit wiki here
https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/wiki/pluginsandresources.
Currently it has more than 200 plugins listed.
4. You can opt-in for other options too, like email notifications.
5. Provisions for Automoderation. You can set it to automatically tag
posts based on keywords, create weekly posts and stick it to the top of
thread etc. This would help with organizing the posts at a later point as
you can list posts based on tags.
6. Last but not least, a casual internet user is much more likely to
come across TiddlyWiki in reddit over Discourse or google groups. Reddit
promotes its active and upcoming subreddits. Reddit userbase spans far and
wide.
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Ákos Szederjei
2016-12-10 18:47:58 UTC
Permalink
I can only ad my opinion from a user's point of view, so I skip the
technical parts.
* The existing documentation isn’t serving the needs of our users
Despite that, I found the current documentation a very good for quick
starter info. After that the requirements diverge for each users,
depending on the purpose of the TW.
* GitHub presents a huge psychological burden for would-be contributors
Definitely. I made a GitHub account recently, and found it very "geeky",
both in good and bad way.
* Google Groups is pretty poor
Yes, I agree!
* I’m not averse to evaluating Discourse as an interim solution. I’m not
sure whether it would be better to replace or augment the existing
Google Group
Some projects I am watching / contributing as a user / translator
switched to Discourse. While it has some shiny parts, like scrolling
discussions, dynamic quotes, etc, I found most of them unnecessary. The
tag only approach it is not very transparent to use. But I personally
prefer hierarchical structures myself, so I maybe biased.
I do not think it is so much better for an interim solution as Google
Groups.
* I do not favour adopting MediaWiki, mainly because TW’s wiki syntax is
confusing enough without burdening authors with an additional syntax
(people will long memories will recall that tiddlywiki.org was based on
mediawiki in 2008/9)
I checked MediaWiki out of curiosity and syntax is different enough to
get frustrated. :) Also one could use MediaWiki, but it feel wrong to
use a different wiki for our wiki....

My 2 cents.

Ákos, who is getting the cold too...
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2016-12-10 19:05:06 UTC
Permalink
This seems to be a common thought, but there is a bit of a disconnect.
TiddlyWiki is a *single-user* application *not* made for concurrent
activities. MediaWiki was made for mult-user collaborative work.

Just because they share the word "wiki" doesn't mean they can both be used
for the same job! A Mac truck and a Ford Escort are both vehicles, but you
wouldn't use the Escort to carry 10 tons of oranges to market and you
wouldn't use the Mac to shop at the mall.

Projects like WikiPedia have tens of thousands of contributors, so I'm sure
it can't be that difficult to navigate. I'm absolutely sure it is easier
than Git-Hub.

Mark
Post by Ákos Szederjei
I checked MediaWiki out of curiosity and syntax is different enough to
get frustrated. :) Also one could use MediaWiki, but it feel wrong to
use a different wiki for our wiki....
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Ákos Szederjei
2016-12-10 19:16:45 UTC
Permalink
Principally, I am not against MW. Having 24 hours in a day, I simply
have no time to learn it's syntax. But this is my priority and if others
go for it, it is fine.

If potential Mac truck users can only reach the Mac truck user manual
with a Ford Escort, it does raise the question why not use an Ford Escort?
I am not talking about MW vs TW, just pointing out that despite their
different user case, which most people won't even know about, is not
exactly a good advertisement.

As written above, my musings are just pointers with good intentions. As
my contributions are limited, those who will use the new system should
feel home in it, not me.

Ákos
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Mat
2016-12-11 19:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Jeremy wrote

Ultimately and ideally, we should base TiddlyWiki documentation efforts on
Post by Jeremy Ruston
TiddlyWiki itself
Agree 100% and - (talking to everybody now.) - this is why I'm against
distracting interim solutions or parallel solutions of other kinds. ANY
other system would mean people would have to e.g register for yet another
thing, learn new UI's and more lingo and it would scatter and fragment the
docs and info (or repeat it) and I strongly fear this would split the
community and be confusing. If the idea is to ultimately have TW be
sufficient in itself, then... why shouldn't we just focus on creating that!?

The big problem is that "we creating that" is, implementation-wise, limited
to very few knowledgeable individuals. However, the first step is still to
define how we (all) would like for it to function. So maybe that's the best
start? This makes sense even if you insist on some non-TW solution - i.e
defining what a system should fulfill and what it should feature.


The solution is simple: switch to using TiddlyWiki in a
Post by Jeremy Ruston
server-based configuration, but you lose the offline capability. [...]
federation on the server under Node.js, where the technical difficulties
melt away. That’s how the threaded discussion on
http://tiddlywiki.com/tiddlywiki-eu-meetup-2016/ was built; the result is
a simple HTML file that downloads swiftly.
None of the alternative solutions (github, mediawiki, reddit, discourse,
etc) work offline either AFAICT ..but, with a server-based TW one could (as
pointed out) download the result and probably have it integrate well with
ones own TW if that is desired.

@Jeremy - would it not be possible with a symbiotic solution including both
a server-based node.js configuration and the vanilla version? Those
inclined could host server based solutions used as exchange hubs for e.g
documentation to/from which others could "post" or download documentation.

"Posting" would, perhaps, be done in a workflow similar to how the
TWederation experiments are approaching it; Server-wikis would, from wikis
they're following, *fetch *specified tiddlers (e.g tiddlers tagged "docs").
Because "Docs" is of interest to many people, it is likely to be
redundantly hosted by multiple server wikis, thus protecting accessibility.

Not thought through: but how about a twitteresque system with UUIDs as
hashtags (with potential aliases) for original issues and replies/whatever
to such issues can be tagged with these UUIDs to associate it with the
original issue.

<:-)
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Josiah
2016-12-12 12:49:11 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Mat

I'd like to reply to this bit-by-bit ...

Mat wrote:

I'm against distracting interim solutions or parallel solutions of other
kinds. ANY other system would mean people would have to e.g register for
yet another thing, learn new UI's and more lingo and it would scatter and
fragment the docs and info (or repeat it) and I strongly fear this would
split the community and be confusing.
I agree AND disagree.

I AGREE that interim solutions that are not in a core central solution add
to fragmentation.

I guess the question is whether fragmentation is worth the upsides that
better ways of helping people NOW help enough. Its a trade-off and one
worth considering.

I DISAGREE mainly about TIMING (hence the NOW, above). This thread, perhaps
more than many previous on documentation issues, is closer to a clearer
consensual outcome than any before. I love what you guys are doing with
TWED. But, as you say, you are small in number and many, many issues needs
to be sorted AND implemented. Do you have the time? When will it happen?
THAT should be a factor in this. Because otherwise we are just gonna go
round this loop again in a few months.

Best wishes
Josiah
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Josiah
2016-12-12 13:25:30 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Mat & all

In the space of a short time Riz, a guy who likes to do, has created a
Reddit for TW5 that has discussion (http://tinyurl.com/h884qlj) that has
six resource libraries (http://tinyurl.com/zmuplqp), that is developing a
post labelling system based on tiddlywiki.com tags so you can find things.

It looks like its answering needs.

Take a look and ask yourself whether Google Groups, which is what we have,
is anywhere near as good a format?

Call it "fragmentation" if you want. In a way it is. But so would be any
innovation.

Personally I want to congratulate him. And, lacking any other solution
right now, say yes. Its pretty damn good.

IF he continues with it he will need co-moderators to help it be
sustainable.

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Ultimately and ideally, we should base TiddlyWiki documentation efforts on
Post by Jeremy Ruston
TiddlyWiki itself
Agree 100% and - (talking to everybody now.) - this is why I'm against
distracting interim solutions or parallel solutions of other kinds. ANY
other system would mean people would have to e.g register for yet another
thing, learn new UI's and more lingo and it would scatter and fragment the
docs and info (or repeat it) and I strongly fear this would split the
community and be confusing. If the idea is to ultimately have TW be
sufficient in itself, then... why shouldn't we just focus on creating that!?
The big problem is that "we creating that" is, implementation-wise,
limited to very few knowledgeable individuals. However, the first step is
still to define how we (all) would like for it to function. So maybe that's
the best start? This makes sense even if you insist on some non-TW solution
- i.e defining what a system should fulfill and what it should feature.
The solution is simple: switch to using TiddlyWiki in a
Post by Jeremy Ruston
server-based configuration, but you lose the offline capability. [...]
federation on the server under Node.js, where the technical difficulties
melt away. That’s how the threaded discussion on
http://tiddlywiki.com/tiddlywiki-eu-meetup-2016/ was built; the result
is a simple HTML file that downloads swiftly.
None of the alternative solutions (github, mediawiki, reddit, discourse,
etc) work offline either AFAICT ..but, with a server-based TW one could (as
pointed out) download the result and probably have it integrate well with
ones own TW if that is desired.
@Jeremy - would it not be possible with a symbiotic solution including
both a server-based node.js configuration and the vanilla version? Those
inclined could host server based solutions used as exchange hubs for e.g
documentation to/from which others could "post" or download documentation.
"Posting" would, perhaps, be done in a workflow similar to how the
TWederation experiments are approaching it; Server-wikis would, from wikis
they're following, *fetch *specified tiddlers (e.g tiddlers tagged
"docs"). Because "Docs" is of interest to many people, it is likely to be
redundantly hosted by multiple server wikis, thus protecting accessibility.
Not thought through: but how about a twitteresque system with UUIDs as
hashtags (with potential aliases) for original issues and replies/whatever
to such issues can be tagged with these UUIDs to associate it with the
original issue.
<:-)
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Mat
2016-12-12 17:33:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Josiah
In the space of a short time Riz, a guy who likes to do, has created a
Reddit for TW5 that has discussion (http://tinyurl.com/h884qlj)
Riz is doing great stuff! (Thanks Riz!)

So, if I understand, Reddit is a substitute for the boards but with
"voting" on answers, right?


IF he continues with it he will need co-moderators to help it be
Post by Josiah
sustainable.
Yeah.. no small task!

<:-)
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Josiah
2016-12-12 17:49:51 UTC
Permalink
It has up-voting. It has tagging (not sure if only moderators can do
that?). It has any number of supplemental wikis needed.
Post by Mat
Post by Josiah
In the space of a short time Riz, a guy who likes to do, has created a
Reddit for TW5 that has discussion (http://tinyurl.com/h884qlj)
Riz is doing great stuff! (Thanks Riz!)
So, if I understand, Reddit is a substitute for the boards but with
"voting" on answers, right?
IF he continues with it he will need co-moderators to help it be
Post by Josiah
sustainable.
Yeah.. no small task!
<:-)
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Riz
2016-12-12 18:06:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mat
Riz is doing great stuff! (Thanks Riz!)
So, if I understand, Reddit is a substitute for the boards but with
"voting" on answers, right?
My pleasure.

Reddit is more than that. Leaving aside my bias because reddit is an
open-source undertaking, it has more features that meets the eye.

1. As Josiah mentioned, it has an inbuilt wiki which any approved submitter
can edit. I plan to add major posts of the week on sundays for easy
reference later.
2. Again, as Josiah mentioned - it has tagging. User can choose to view
just the tagged posts by clicking on a tag. This is in addition to the
default views in which user can sort the posts by most upvoted of
all-time/last year/last month/last 24 hours, latest, hot and so on.
3. Auto-moderation. Even if a user forgets to tag, we can set it such that
tags will be added automatically based on keywords. Same kind of rules can
be defined to many other purposes - including sending a welcome message to
a someone who posts/comments in the group for the first to make him feel
welcome or posting weekiy posts. Eg: Our feel free friday is an automated
post.
4. Reddit is a social network beyond all. If our community grows and one of
our posts reaches a certain amount of posts - that post will be featured in
the reddit front page. Reddit is a website with nearly one million unique
hits (based on askreddit threads alone) and five times that amount page
views - imagine being featured in the front-page of such a site.
5. Last but not least - reddit is more structured, you can filter out
contents you do not like even within a subreddit and so on. Yeah, there is
voting system to indicate the helpfulness of a post too -which doesn't hurt
either.
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Josiah
2016-12-12 13:37:40 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Mat & all

A footnote on Google Groups ...

I'm not sure if everyone is aware that Google Groups does support TAGS. The
moderator has to create them. And, as far as I understand it, you have have
apply at least one when you post. I'm unclear how that works with people
who work through email. Maybe it doesn't?

Its worth noting a MAJOR theme is the discussion was we are losing valuable
documentation all the time by not having an organised way to look at past
threads. TAGs might help, at least as an interim.

Best wishes
Josiah
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Tobias Beer
2016-12-12 18:49:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi Josiah,
Post by Josiah
Its worth noting a MAJOR theme is the discussion was we are losing
valuable documentation all the time by not having an organised way to look
at past threads. TAGs might help, at least as an interim.
Please keep in mind that discussing a subject matter and responding with
answers to highly specific requests is not at all the same as
"documentation". From what I see, reddit does not provide a knowledge base,
whereas TiddlyWiki.com very well has a splash of that.

I think it is crucial for documentation to be curated, not just accrued.
You can argue that there's a learning curve to both contributing as well as
a latency to updates to tiddlywiki.com, but I would argue the quality and
consistency that brings are very much of need. A more or less lose
community built around another platform will quickly evolve into something
that may or may not actually be so much about TiddlyWiki.

You see, Google groups does one thing and it does that good: provide a
platform for timely discussion. That is its purpose and it fulfills it. To
me, extracting documentation for presentation and consumption elsewhere is
an entirely different, ideally curated process.

Best wishes,

Tobias.
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Josiah
2016-12-16 18:56:50 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Tobias

Sorry for the delay. I been busy. I wish I had replied before because this
thread looks like its gone "off the boil". Which, from my point of view, is
unfortunate.

Like many of the other posts in this discussion I find myself both agreeing
& disagreeing .

I AGREE with you on TWO core things ...

1 - Some of the best DOCUMENTATION is written or curated by people
dedicated to that task, not mixed up with anything else. YOUR work is an
outstanding example of that. In no way do I want to detract from that fact.

2 - Google Groups as an ongoing DISCUSSION FORUM is as good as any other.
The fact it supports both web & email, & that it is reliable, gives it a
real "bedrock".

Where I DIFFER somewhat is as follows ...

A - Google Groups loses its own history constantly. Its best at
transient knowledge, very good for the thread at hand. Then, basically, its
past.

B - Multiple forums across the net instantiate what I should probably
properly call "proto-documentation", rather than "Documentation" with a big
"D". But not here. This type of documentation is accessible ONLY where
there is ORGANISATION for longevity.

To give an example from THIS group where GG fails badly.
TWEDERATION orientation & documentation exists as much in the Google Group
archive as it does on TW sites. And BOTH of them are REFRACTORY TO FINDING
because the way GG works makes it extremely cumbersome. Even if you KNOW to
look for them. Which you WON'T unless you have been reading everything.
That goes for BOTH the docu-discussion AND the site addresses for the
plugin. Pinning & Tagging would better enable that. A supplementary wiki on
critical developments directly connected to such threads even more so.

C - What Riz has been doing on Reddit, just as one person with limited
technical scope & time, has really impressed upon me that we could be doing
MUCH BETTER. That is a lot to do with Reddit having searchable tagging of
posts, & posters. AND supplementary wikis built in.

That is NOT so unusual. What is unusual is we persist with GG even
though its CHOPPING OFF emergent directions everyday because it has NO
interest in valuing history.

All this is perhaps not about "documentation" in the stricter sense you
meant it. But, from a practical point of view its still highly relevant.

Best wishes
Josiah



Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Tobias Beer
Hi Josiah,
Post by Josiah
Its worth noting a MAJOR theme is the discussion was we are losing
valuable documentation all the time by not having an organised way to look
at past threads. TAGs might help, at least as an interim.
Please keep in mind that discussing a subject matter and responding with
answers to highly specific requests is not at all the same as
"documentation". From what I see, reddit does not provide a knowledge base,
whereas TiddlyWiki.com very well has a splash of that.
I think it is crucial for documentation to be curated, not just accrued.
You can argue that there's a learning curve to both contributing as well as
a latency to updates to tiddlywiki.com, but I would argue the quality and
consistency that brings are very much of need. A more or less lose
community built around another platform will quickly evolve into something
that may or may not actually be so much about TiddlyWiki.
You see, Google groups does one thing and it does that good: provide a
platform for timely discussion. That is its purpose and it fulfills it. To
me, extracting documentation for presentation and consumption elsewhere is
an entirely different, ideally curated process.
Best wishes,
Tobias.
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Arlen Beiler
2016-12-16 19:47:21 UTC
Permalink
I would like to propose using WikiBooks. I think it is suited for
documentation of this kind. We could have a community area on there, and we
could make use of some bots and scripts which turn the static text pages of
the Wikimedia system into a dynamic, automated system of notifications,
discussions, and feeds.

It is work, yes, but if we have enough MediaWiki editors on here, we could
give it a go. For those who don't want to learn the syntax, that's fine. I
would think we could make a TW <-> MW syntax comparison sheet to ease the
headache, as well. But there are probably quite a few people here who know
both.

That being said, what??? is preventing us from making it multi-user? :)

-Arlen
Post by Josiah
Ciao Tobias
Sorry for the delay. I been busy. I wish I had replied before because this
thread looks like its gone "off the boil". Which, from my point of view, is
unfortunate.
Like many of the other posts in this discussion I find myself both
agreeing & disagreeing .
I AGREE with you on TWO core things ...
1 - Some of the best DOCUMENTATION is written or curated by people
dedicated to that task, not mixed up with anything else. YOUR work is an
outstanding example of that. In no way do I want to detract from that fact.
2 - Google Groups as an ongoing DISCUSSION FORUM is as good as any
other. The fact it supports both web & email, & that it is reliable, gives
it a real "bedrock".
Where I DIFFER somewhat is as follows ...
A - Google Groups loses its own history constantly. Its best at
transient knowledge, very good for the thread at hand. Then, basically, its
past.
B - Multiple forums across the net instantiate what I should probably
properly call "proto-documentation", rather than "Documentation" with a big
"D". But not here. This type of documentation is accessible ONLY where
there is ORGANISATION for longevity.
To give an example from THIS group where GG fails badly.
TWEDERATION orientation & documentation exists as much in the Google Group
archive as it does on TW sites. And BOTH of them are REFRACTORY TO FINDING
because the way GG works makes it extremely cumbersome. Even if you KNOW to
look for them. Which you WON'T unless you have been reading everything.
That goes for BOTH the docu-discussion AND the site addresses for the
plugin. Pinning & Tagging would better enable that. A supplementary wiki on
critical developments directly connected to such threads even more so.
C - What Riz has been doing on Reddit, just as one person with limited
technical scope & time, has really impressed upon me that we could be doing
MUCH BETTER. That is a lot to do with Reddit having searchable tagging of
posts, & posters. AND supplementary wikis built in.
That is NOT so unusual. What is unusual is we persist with GG even
though its CHOPPING OFF emergent directions everyday because it has NO
interest in valuing history.
All this is perhaps not about "documentation" in the stricter sense you
meant it. But, from a practical point of view its still highly relevant.
Best wishes
Josiah
Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Tobias Beer
Hi Josiah,
Post by Josiah
Its worth noting a MAJOR theme is the discussion was we are losing
valuable documentation all the time by not having an organised way to look
at past threads. TAGs might help, at least as an interim.
Please keep in mind that discussing a subject matter and responding with
answers to highly specific requests is not at all the same as
"documentation". From what I see, reddit does not provide a knowledge base,
whereas TiddlyWiki.com very well has a splash of that.
I think it is crucial for documentation to be curated, not just accrued.
You can argue that there's a learning curve to both contributing as well as
a latency to updates to tiddlywiki.com, but I would argue the quality
and consistency that brings are very much of need. A more or less lose
community built around another platform will quickly evolve into something
that may or may not actually be so much about TiddlyWiki.
You see, Google groups does one thing and it does that good: provide a
platform for timely discussion. That is its purpose and it fulfills it. To
me, extracting documentation for presentation and consumption elsewhere is
an entirely different, ideally curated process.
Best wishes,
Tobias.
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Tobias Beer
2016-12-17 07:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Hi Josiah,

You brought up TWEderation as an example for let's say "more scattered"
information than you'd like that somehow doesn't organize nearly as good as
you wish and where you believe reddit could provide a better environment to
more efficiently bring the lose pieces together.

The first point I would make is that TWEderation is a community effort (one
which I have hardly been involved in due to a new job I've been working for
the better part of this year now, sry about that, Jed & Mat). However, much
more so than for the TiddlyWiki core, if you have something emerge out of a
community effort, of course you'll be looking at a highly organic project
with goals and ideas being addressed and discussed and tested that perhaps
feel a bit like moving goalposts and so you may find it difficult to get to
the bottom of it or whatever you try to do with it or find out.

However, I would not project this kind of project-/-plugin-motivated effort
onto the TiddlyWiki project as the underlying foundation, even though the
core may as well present a wide range of topics that beg addressing and
leave you on a quest to figuring out the right entry point to get things
moving or just be able to simply "use" something, you know, do as others
did.

Although perhaps cumbersome, the process to contribute to improving the
core documentation is quite established, from my point of view... while
sure leaving room for improvement here and there.

Sure, bringing community documentation together and wrapping all that up in
a more unified searchable tagable folksonomy is an entirely different
thing. So, perhaps, with all the efforts on (that) reddit, perhaps the best
focus for it would be to establishing a kind of "knowledge-base" that does
not itself hold the information you're looking for, but only abstracts for
it, but mostly providing an environment for gathering pointers... to all
the bits of information out there that may help you answer a question or
achieve a goal... while leaving lengthy, at times philosophical ponderings
as well as "please help me" requests in the groups and efforts for a solid
core documentation to the more github oriented workflow.

So, from a practical point of view, maybe we should discuss separation of
concerns rather than try to figure out the best environment for everything.

*Google Groups*: whatever you want to discuss (in context)
*TiddlyWiki on GitHub*: if you wish to improve the core (docs)
*Reddit*: if you wish to tie otherwise lose ends together in terms of bits
of information pointing elsewhere

maybe even a dedicated...

*StackOverflow:* for figuring things out regarding the core, plugins,
themes from a developer / designer point of view

...something along these lines.

Best wishes,

Tobias.
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Jeremy Ruston
2016-12-17 14:43:19 UTC
Permalink
Many thanks for the interesting discussion. Just a few points relating to recent posts:

* The Reddit experiment looks pretty promising, and I’d welcome other opinions as to its suitability to replace Google Groups for casual discussion (or indeed as a way of gathering links for the front page of tw.com <http://tw.com/>)
* As Tobias points out, post-Google Groups, StackOverflow might be a natural place for developer Q&A that doesn’t fit GitHub

I should emphasise again that I’m aware that the slow update cycle for tiddlywiki.com <http://tiddlywiki.com/> is a significant hold up to making improvements, and hope to pay attention to the problem in 2017,

Best wishes

Jeremy.
Post by Tobias Beer
Hi Josiah,
You brought up TWEderation as an example for let's say "more scattered" information than you'd like that somehow doesn't organize nearly as good as you wish and where you believe reddit could provide a better environment to more efficiently bring the lose pieces together.
The first point I would make is that TWEderation is a community effort (one which I have hardly been involved in due to a new job I've been working for the better part of this year now, sry about that, Jed & Mat). However, much more so than for the TiddlyWiki core, if you have something emerge out of a community effort, of course you'll be looking at a highly organic project with goals and ideas being addressed and discussed and tested that perhaps feel a bit like moving goalposts and so you may find it difficult to get to the bottom of it or whatever you try to do with it or find out.
However, I would not project this kind of project-/-plugin-motivated effort onto the TiddlyWiki project as the underlying foundation, even though the core may as well present a wide range of topics that beg addressing and leave you on a quest to figuring out the right entry point to get things moving or just be able to simply "use" something, you know, do as others did.
Although perhaps cumbersome, the process to contribute to improving the core documentation is quite established, from my point of view... while sure leaving room for improvement here and there.
Sure, bringing community documentation together and wrapping all that up in a more unified searchable tagable folksonomy is an entirely different thing. So, perhaps, with all the efforts on (that) reddit, perhaps the best focus for it would be to establishing a kind of "knowledge-base" that does not itself hold the information you're looking for, but only abstracts for it, but mostly providing an environment for gathering pointers... to all the bits of information out there that may help you answer a question or achieve a goal... while leaving lengthy, at times philosophical ponderings as well as "please help me" requests in the groups and efforts for a solid core documentation to the more github oriented workflow.
So, from a practical point of view, maybe we should discuss separation of concerns rather than try to figure out the best environment for everything.
Google Groups: whatever you want to discuss (in context)
TiddlyWiki on GitHub: if you wish to improve the core (docs)
Reddit: if you wish to tie otherwise lose ends together in terms of bits of information pointing elsewhere
maybe even a dedicated...
StackOverflow: for figuring things out regarding the core, plugins, themes from a developer / designer point of view
...something along these lines.
Best wishes,
Tobias.
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Marica Odagaki
2016-12-18 03:40:08 UTC
Permalink
Re: StackOverflow..

I don't know if Tobias originally meant this with "dedicated" (though
guessing yes), but it's possible to create a whole new StackOverflow-style
Q&A site under the stackexchange.com domain: something like
http://tiddlywiki.stackexchange.com/, if we go through a multi-phase
proposal and acceptance process.

Proposal example: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/86758/django-cms
Q&A site example: http://drupal.stackexchange.com/

Benefits over stackoverflow.com:
- We can build up a tagging taxonomy within the context of TiddlyWiki
- We can welcome non-coding questions as well as coding questions

Benefits of a StackOverflow-style Q&A site in general:
- The most useful answer is shown at the top, which isn't the case with
Google Groups; past Q&As can serve as a useful resource for future visitors
- Comes with moderation tooling like closing as off-topic, voting to
indicate usefulness of questions and answers, and ability to mark an answer
as "correct" / "helpful"
- Tags can each have an associated documentation page (not to say it should
be the home of documentation of all things TiddlyWiki)
- Comes with real-time chat rooms

I believe this won't be a good place for announcements of new plugins and
such; Reddit or Google Groups seem more suitable as a place for content
bound to a specific time.

In any case, if there's interest, we can make it happen. The process
involves defining the scope of the site (this seems straightforward), and
having at least two hundred people sign up and say "I commit to be active
in this site" (there's a bit more to the acceptance criteria though).

(Personal context: I've been using TiddlyWiki5 as my personal notebook for
a while now, and I've been active on some of the StackExchange network
sites)

Cheers,
Marica
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Rustem
2016-12-22 13:05:35 UTC
Permalink
+1 for stackexchange sub-domain. Would work really well for knowledge
accumulation. Would we be able to have the Documentation (beta) feature on
it as well?
Post by Marica Odagaki
Re: StackOverflow..
I don't know if Tobias originally meant this with "dedicated" (though
guessing yes), but it's possible to create a whole new StackOverflow-style
Q&A site under the stackexchange.com domain: something like
http://tiddlywiki.stackexchange.com/, if we go through a multi-phase
proposal and acceptance process.
http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/86758/django-cms
Q&A site example: http://drupal.stackexchange.com/
- We can build up a tagging taxonomy within the context of TiddlyWiki
- We can welcome non-coding questions as well as coding questions
- The most useful answer is shown at the top, which isn't the case with
Google Groups; past Q&As can serve as a useful resource for future visitors
- Comes with moderation tooling like closing as off-topic, voting to
indicate usefulness of questions and answers, and ability to mark an answer
as "correct" / "helpful"
- Tags can each have an associated documentation page (not to say it
should be the home of documentation of all things TiddlyWiki)
- Comes with real-time chat rooms
I believe this won't be a good place for announcements of new plugins and
such; Reddit or Google Groups seem more suitable as a place for content
bound to a specific time.
In any case, if there's interest, we can make it happen. The process
involves defining the scope of the site (this seems straightforward), and
having at least two hundred people sign up and say "I commit to be active
in this site" (there's a bit more to the acceptance criteria though).
(Personal context: I've been using TiddlyWiki5 as my personal notebook for
a while now, and I've been active on some of the StackExchange network
sites)
Cheers,
Marica
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Arlen Beiler
2016-12-26 22:46:27 UTC
Permalink
A StackExchange site will not replace the Google Group, it will only take
out many of the questions that are asking how to do stuff in TiddlyWiki.
And you can keep tabs on the questions that get asked fairly easily. For
instance, here is all the TiddlyWiki questions on StackOverflow.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/tiddlywiki

And here is a link to the proposal again for ease of access :)

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/105326/tiddlywiki?referrer=kk4xS6VP59WB49QQOgt7xA2

Enjoy
-Arlen
... student is on summer holidays. Therefore the summer project.
Merry Christmas from New Zealand!
It's getting pretty hot here... :)
Dear Arlen, Josiah and Birthe,
you are touching the topic of my ongoing interest for a few years,
http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/104941506/Transmedia
In other words, I study how to bring "experts" and "learners" literally
"on the same page" where all relevant knowledge and information is
collected and arrange for immediate reuse, and how to ensure each
particular "page" found or discovered in "real-time", i.e. as quick as a
few seconds.
- books are great for putting together well known materials and facts,
for systematic learning
- forums like this are great for sharing ideas with large number of
participants
- messengers are good for real-time "relaxed" communication
- voice and video chats (HangOuts, for example) are used when things
require immediate action
but none of them are made convenient for finding / discovering
information (for future reuse).
From my experience, for the purpose of (real-time) reuse, any particular
chunk of information or knowledge can be
- found only when it is given a "human-readable name", i.e. a "Topic
Title"
- discovered only when it is interconnected with relevant and related
concepts,
- "horizontally" into the "knowledge network"
- "vertically" into a "taxonomy", where every level of Taxonomy
represents higher and lower degree of "focusing" into "semantic areas",
either in more details and specific, or of wider scope and generic
I experiment with building "knowledge networks" on PBWorks, quite
successfully. However, my anticipation is that TWederation will be even
more suitable for the job. To my understanding, TWederation is aiming same
http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/114061573/IPFS%2
0is%20the%20Distributed%20Web
Currently, I am looking for the opportunity to shift to this kind of "P2P
Web" environment, as soon as secure and reliable versioning and multi-user
editing realised.
I am curating a student who knows HTML, CSS and JS and selected
TiddlyWiki for his summer project. It would be great if we could develop it
into really successful one, with your help.
I am looking forward to your suggestions and support.
Thank you beforehand,
Dmitry
P.S. Please feel free to browse and explore both Visual Taxonomy and
"knowledge networks" by clicking links and images in the header and body of
the pages.
Ciao Birthe C
It IS confusing. But I doubt there will be any change without a clear
transfer process. As it is absolutely nothing has been settled on yet. So
don't worry.
These periodic discussions do often, rightly, focus on the limitations
of here. That does NOT mean this group is suddenly gonna disappear. If
anything it will continue as is, despite its problems.
Best wishes
Josiah
My big question is: Are you planning to end this Google group? I like
it for its simplicity. I do undertand that a lot of you here are very
familiar with a lot of other possibilities but admit that I am just getting
more and more confused.
I find a lot of inspiration in reading about other peoples work with
tiddlywiki from day to day. In fact I would not be much of a tiddlywiki
user without it. I am a reuser with some small twists ;-)
Also my biggest problem with searching is my bad english.
Birthe
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Dmitry Sokolov
2016-12-27 05:52:25 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Arlen,

The link on TiddlyWiki on StackOverflow is added to the TiddlyWiki
Resources list:
http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/113792623/TiddlyWiki%20Forums

My concerns:

- TW on SO looks not very popular
- our activities will be scattered between the platforms
- an environment linking all the bits and pieces similar to
LikeInMind will be required, to have all knowledge reliably found,
discovered and retrieved

Your thoughts?


Cheers,

Dmitry
Post by Arlen Beiler
A StackExchange site will not replace the Google Group, it will only take
out many of the questions that are asking how to do stuff in TiddlyWiki.
And you can keep tabs on the questions that get asked fairly easily. For
instance, here is all the TiddlyWiki questions on StackOverflow.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/tiddlywiki
And here is a link to the proposal again for ease of access :)
http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/105326/tiddlywiki?referrer=kk4xS6VP59WB49QQOgt7xA2
Enjoy
-Arlen
... student is on summer holidays. Therefore the summer project.
Merry Christmas from New Zealand!
It's getting pretty hot here... :)
Dear Arlen, Josiah and Birthe,
you are touching the topic of my ongoing interest for a few years,
http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/104941506/Transmedia
In other words, I study how to bring "experts" and "learners" literally
"on the same page" where all relevant knowledge and information is
collected and arrange for immediate reuse, and how to ensure each
particular "page" found or discovered in "real-time", i.e. as quick as a
few seconds.
- books are great for putting together well known materials and facts,
for systematic learning
- forums like this are great for sharing ideas with large number of
participants
- messengers are good for real-time "relaxed" communication
- voice and video chats (HangOuts, for example) are used when things
require immediate action
but none of them are made convenient for finding / discovering
information (for future reuse).
From my experience, for the purpose of (real-time) reuse, any particular
chunk of information or knowledge can be
- found only when it is given a "human-readable name", i.e. a "Topic
Title"
- discovered only when it is interconnected with relevant and
related concepts,
- "horizontally" into the "knowledge network"
- "vertically" into a "taxonomy", where every level of Taxonomy
represents higher and lower degree of "focusing" into "semantic areas",
either in more details and specific, or of wider scope and generic
I experiment with building "knowledge networks" on PBWorks, quite
successfully. However, my anticipation is that TWederation will be even
more suitable for the job. To my understanding, TWederation is aiming same
http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/114061573/IPFS%20is%20the%20Distributed%20Web
Currently, I am looking for the opportunity to shift to this kind of
"P2P Web" environment, as soon as secure and reliable versioning and
multi-user editing realised.
I am curating a student who knows HTML, CSS and JS and selected
TiddlyWiki for his summer project. It would be great if we could develop it
into really successful one, with your help.
I am looking forward to your suggestions and support.
Thank you beforehand,
Dmitry
P.S. Please feel free to browse and explore both Visual Taxonomy and
"knowledge networks" by clicking links and images in the header and body of
the pages.
Ciao Birthe C
It IS confusing. But I doubt there will be any change without a clear
transfer process. As it is absolutely nothing has been settled on yet. So
don't worry.
These periodic discussions do often, rightly, focus on the limitations
of here. That does NOT mean this group is suddenly gonna disappear. If
anything it will continue as is, despite its problems.
Best wishes
Josiah
My big question is: Are you planning to end this Google group? I like
it for its simplicity. I do undertand that a lot of you here are very
familiar with a lot of other possibilities but admit that I am just getting
more and more confused.
I find a lot of inspiration in reading about other peoples work with
tiddlywiki from day to day. In fact I would not be much of a tiddlywiki
user without it. I am a reuser with some small twists ;-)
Also my biggest problem with searching is my bad english.
Birthe
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Josiah
2016-12-27 15:00:39 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Tobias and all

I delayed replying because I wanted to review what everyone has written,
both here and in the parallel thread on Stack Exchange.
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/ZjVj_X_2BKY>

1 - A absolutely agree that the CORE work on Github is likely as good as is
it could be. It works.

2 - I also agree that this Google Group is very good for ONGOING ISSUES.

2a - BUT its also very poor at registering its own history. SOME things
that happen here deserve persistent attention. THIS discussion itself is an
example. As Google Groups is we will lose it unless action is taken whilst
its at the forefront. As is this discussion has forked and its already got
unwieldy to follow unless your manually cross-reference and care to read
several threads.

2b - Helpful for this Group might be a top placed search address (that Wimm
suggested) that helps you look at the archive for this group in a more
useable way to: Search This Group.
<https://www.mail-archive.com/***@googlegroups.com/> (I suggested to
Jeremy that he consider adding it to the intro section for the group.)

3a - Riz's Reddit initiative at https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/ is a
serious effort and in many ways is a very good environment to ask
questions. The easy re-editing so you can keep tightening one's post. (I
don't re-edit much here on GG as I'm aware no email recipient would see the
changes. But good questions deserve honing until they are as clear as
possible.) The better visual layout. Tagging. Upvoting. Additional Wikis.
All very easy.

3b - StackExchange/Overflow initiative that Arlen is advancing covers some
of the same territory as 3a. The difference between Reddit & StackOverflow,
as far as I grasp it, is it is a bit more orientated to technical
specificity than Reddit. Supporting supplementary wikis looks a bit more
difficult. Getting people involved requires numbers. The barriers to full
entry look kinda high, though it would register real commitment if
achieved. Arlen will correct me if I am wrong (please).

I would like, from my perspective, to ADD need for ...

4 - SHOWCASES. I mean COMPLETE TW's in a gallery system so you can, in ONE
place, see what has been done. (I have learned MOST from seeing what others
have done in finished, replete, TW's rather than minimal demos.)

You talk about the "organic" process of sifting forward. The problem with
"organic" is its so flexible its also in danger of becoming also "survival
of the loudest" or "the lowest common denominator". Sometimes things get
better through it. Sometimes not. In the back of my mind is casualties
along the way.

OVERALL my sense is we are a lot closer to a workable consensus right now
than has been the case for a long time. I hope it will fruit.

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Tobias Beer
Hi Josiah,
You brought up TWEderation as an example for let's say "more scattered"
information than you'd like that somehow doesn't organize nearly as good as
you wish and where you believe reddit could provide a better environment to
more efficiently bring the lose pieces together.
The first point I would make is that TWEderation is a community effort
(one which I have hardly been involved in due to a new job I've been
working for the better part of this year now, sry about that, Jed & Mat).
However, much more so than for the TiddlyWiki core, if you have something
emerge out of a community effort, of course you'll be looking at a highly
organic project with goals and ideas being addressed and discussed and
tested that perhaps feel a bit like moving goalposts and so you may find it
difficult to get to the bottom of it or whatever you try to do with it or
find out.
However, I would not project this kind of project-/-plugin-motivated
effort onto the TiddlyWiki project as the underlying foundation, even
though the core may as well present a wide range of topics that beg
addressing and leave you on a quest to figuring out the right entry point
to get things moving or just be able to simply "use" something, you know,
do as others did.
Although perhaps cumbersome, the process to contribute to improving the
core documentation is quite established, from my point of view... while
sure leaving room for improvement here and there.
Sure, bringing community documentation together and wrapping all that up
in a more unified searchable tagable folksonomy is an entirely different
thing. So, perhaps, with all the efforts on (that) reddit, perhaps the best
focus for it would be to establishing a kind of "knowledge-base" that does
not itself hold the information you're looking for, but only abstracts for
it, but mostly providing an environment for gathering pointers... to all
the bits of information out there that may help you answer a question or
achieve a goal... while leaving lengthy, at times philosophical ponderings
as well as "please help me" requests in the groups and efforts for a solid
core documentation to the more github oriented workflow.
So, from a practical point of view, maybe we should discuss separation of
concerns rather than try to figure out the best environment for everything.
*Google Groups*: whatever you want to discuss (in context)
*TiddlyWiki on GitHub*: if you wish to improve the core (docs)
*Reddit*: if you wish to tie otherwise lose ends together in terms of
bits of information pointing elsewhere
maybe even a dedicated...
*StackOverflow:* for figuring things out regarding the core, plugins,
themes from a developer / designer point of view
...something along these lines.
Best wishes,
Tobias.
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Arlen Beiler
2016-12-27 18:13:46 UTC
Permalink
On Dec 27, 2016 12:52 AM, "Dmitry Sokolov" wrote:

My concerns:

- TW on SO looks not very popular
- our activities will be scattered between the platforms
- an environment linking all the bits and pieces similar to
LikeInMind will be required, to have all knowledge reliably found,
discovered and retrieved


Every information/documentation system has an entry point. I think that
here everything starts with TiddlyWiki.com. So once the StackExchange site
is in beta we can put that on TiddlyWiki.com.

People find the other resources through that most likely, as well as
through Google perhaps. Group users do a lot of stuff with the group, and
the main complaint is that there is no way to keep old content accessible.
A StackExchange site will probably take care of the technical questions.

Your PBWorks site is useful, though. Many people compile lists of
information in different ways and different people like different ways, so
more regular TiddlyWiki users may use your list to find resources.

TiddlyWiki on Stack Overflow is not used because no one has been monitoring
it or pointing to it. However, if we create a StackExchange site, it will
become used a lot, because we'll start sending people over there with their
questions.

I don't think we will get too scattered. This is reminding me of a swarm of
honeybees. When they swarm, most of them will go find a tree and sit there
while the scouts go out and decide where to make their new home. Then the
scouts come back and talk to each other and keep going back and forth till
they decide. Then they all go to the new place.

In the same way, any solution we find is going to be community driven, so
if it doesn't take we'll all come back here and regroup. People generally
like cohesiveness, so we will probably find ways to make it work. Most of
the discussion here is just exploring different options. Even the
StackExchange proposal is part of that discussion.

On Dec 27, 2016 10:00 AM, "Josiah" <***@assays.tv> wrote:

3b - StackExchange/Overflow initiative that Arlen is advancing covers some
of the same territory as 3a. The difference between Reddit & StackOverflow,
as far as I grasp it, is it is a bit more orientated to technical
specificity than Reddit. Supporting supplementary wikis looks a bit more
difficult. Getting people involved requires numbers. The barriers to full
entry look kinda high, though it would register real commitment if
achieved. Arlen will correct me if I am wrong (please).


I think that a StackExchange site will have a fairly strong amount of
support. Wiki info may be difficult. WikiBooks or Reddit may be a very
useful answer. There is a documentation feature on Stack Overflow that may
be available on other sites. We could use it as a starting point.

I don't think that the entry requirements are very formidable given the
size of our Google Group. Once we get to beta we will find out, though.
Even if we don't end up with a StackExchange site, we could consider using
the tag on Stack Overflow.

Thanks,
-Arlen

-------------------------------------------------------

I'm supporting a proposal to create a new Q&A website for anyone who uses
TiddlyWiki, and anyone who develops for TiddlyWiki.

It's built on the same software as stackoverflow.com, a hugely popular site
where over seven million programmers help each other with difficult
programming problems. On Stack Overflow the audience votes for the best
answer, so the answer you want is usually right at the top, not on page
five.

I'm hoping that a site for anyone who uses TiddlyWiki, and anyone who
develops for TiddlyWiki would have the same kind of network effect and turn
into an amazing resource.

The proposal process is going on here:

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/105326/tiddlywiki?
referrer=kk4xS6VP59WB49QQOgt7xA2

If you're interested in participating, go to that URL and click on the
orange "Follow It!" button.
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Dmitry Sokolov
2016-12-27 22:17:36 UTC
Permalink
Arlen,

Every information/documentation system has an entry point. I think that
Post by Arlen Beiler
here everything starts with TiddlyWiki.com. So once the StackExchange site
is in beta we can put that on TiddlyWiki.com.
"Single Entry Point" is a very good idea for any community working in
"Transmedia" environment. The problem with TW site is it's inconsistency
with one of the TW principles: Anything Is a Tiddler
<http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/113999350/Anything%20Is%20a%20Tiddler>.
In my experience, "Anything" means anything. If I have, for example,
"TiddlyWiki Mailing List" in mind, I should be able to find it in the
"Topic Search" bar on TW site. It's not there, unfortunately. To my
understanding, it is not there because TW site is following the common (and
may be obsolete?) principles of sequential and hierarchical organisation
information. Same principles can be seen in books, file systems, street
maps, etc.

Don't take me wrong, hierarchy is great for discovering and learning
purposes, when I don't know what expect from this particular site or field
of knowledge. However, it's inapplicable to my "finding" activities when I
am absolutely sure that the content is "there" and under that particular
title. This "Direct Access to Particular Topics" mode is not realised on TW
yet.
Here is how it is realised on LiM:
http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/104863210/Direct%20Access%20to%20LikeInMind%20Pages
Type a topic, and you will be either transferred onto that particular page,
or asked to create a missing page. In the latter case, there is a number of
scenarios I would prefer to talk later.

In my experience again (sorry for being spoiled by "knowledge networking"
technique), I do not have to remember what and where was and have to be
published. I open a Topic and see all the links I need for communication,
as well as the summary of that communication, like on this page prepared
for TiddlyWiki Development Plans
<http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/114118636/TiddlyWiki%20Development%20Plans>.
I have no expectations in regards to the content of this page but allow it
developed as adequate to the actual situation as needed for my immediate
actions and reuse.

In my experience, if I divide information in pieces (tiddlers), I do that
in purpose, and the purpose is the reuse of those particular bits of
information. Reuse means accessibility. Accessibility can be provided only
when each particular tiddler can be found / directly accessed, or
discovered in seconds. Any kind of forum, GGroops, ReddIt, etc., are not
made for the purpose. They are good for discussions of massive number of
participants, as a primary source of information. However, for "decision
making" and fast action they are not applicable. One would need to go
through all the posts, before sense formed and prepared for a decision. The
latter means that every decision is based on "reinvention of a wheel" done
previously by someone else, on the same topic, in similar situations.
That's how I see place and role of Knowledge Network vs Forums.
<http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/64408923/Knowledge%20Network%20vs%20Forums>

As someone already mentioned on this forum, federation of tiddlers is as
important as federation of the structuring of the knowledge networks.
LikeInMind methodology and PBWorks technology are flexible enough to allow
federation of anything.

The bottom line would probably be:

- scattering of resources between various platforms (Transmedia
environment) puts a barrier to accessibility to particular knowledge.
- knowledge networking (interconnection of relevant tiddlers into
taxonomies and networks) removes the barrier and allows any particular
tiddler found / discovered in seconds

These are the fundamentals for LikeInMind knowledge networking platform I
am planning to transfer into the TiddlyWiki format, a format of future P2P
Web, to my understanding.


Thank you All for what you have developed,

my special thanks to Jeremy Ruston
<http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/114069544/Jeremy%20Ruston>

Dmitry
Post by Arlen Beiler
- TW on SO looks not very popular
- our activities will be scattered between the platforms
- an environment linking all the bits and pieces similar to
LikeInMind will be required, to have all knowledge reliably found,
discovered and retrieved
Every information/documentation system has an entry point. I think that
here everything starts with TiddlyWiki.com. So once the StackExchange site
is in beta we can put that on TiddlyWiki.com.
People find the other resources through that most likely, as well as
through Google perhaps. Group users do a lot of stuff with the group, and
the main complaint is that there is no way to keep old content accessible.
A StackExchange site will probably take care of the technical questions.
Your PBWorks site is useful, though. Many people compile lists of
information in different ways and different people like different ways, so
more regular TiddlyWiki users may use your list to find resources.
TiddlyWiki on Stack Overflow is not used because no one has been
monitoring it or pointing to it. However, if we create a StackExchange
site, it will become used a lot, because we'll start sending people over
there with their questions.
I don't think we will get too scattered. This is reminding me of a swarm
of honeybees. When they swarm, most of them will go find a tree and sit
there while the scouts go out and decide where to make their new home. Then
the scouts come back and talk to each other and keep going back and forth
till they decide. Then they all go to the new place.
In the same way, any solution we find is going to be community driven, so
if it doesn't take we'll all come back here and regroup. People generally
like cohesiveness, so we will probably find ways to make it work. Most of
the discussion here is just exploring different options. Even the
StackExchange proposal is part of that discussion.
3b - StackExchange/Overflow initiative that Arlen is advancing covers some
of the same territory as 3a. The difference between Reddit & StackOverflow,
as far as I grasp it, is it is a bit more orientated to technical
specificity than Reddit. Supporting supplementary wikis looks a bit more
difficult. Getting people involved requires numbers. The barriers to full
entry look kinda high, though it would register real commitment if
achieved. Arlen will correct me if I am wrong (please).
I think that a StackExchange site will have a fairly strong amount of
support. Wiki info may be difficult. WikiBooks or Reddit may be a very
useful answer. There is a documentation feature on Stack Overflow that may
be available on other sites. We could use it as a starting point.
I don't think that the entry requirements are very formidable given the
size of our Google Group. Once we get to beta we will find out, though.
Even if we don't end up with a StackExchange site, we could consider using
the tag on Stack Overflow.
Thanks,
-Arlen
-------------------------------------------------------
I'm supporting a proposal to create a new Q&A website for anyone who uses
TiddlyWiki, and anyone who develops for TiddlyWiki.
It's built on the same software as stackoverflow.com, a hugely popular
site where over seven million programmers help each other with difficult
programming problems. On Stack Overflow the audience votes for the best
answer, so the answer you want is usually right at the top, not on page
five.
I'm hoping that a site for anyone who uses TiddlyWiki, and anyone who
develops for TiddlyWiki would have the same kind of network effect and turn
into an amazing resource.
http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/105326/tiddlywiki?referrer=kk4xS6VP59WB49QQOgt7xA2
If you're interested in participating, go to that URL and click on the
orange "Follow It!" button.
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Arlen Beiler
2016-12-28 03:36:59 UTC
Permalink
Ah, interesting. I think I am understanding :)
Arlen,
Every information/documentation system has an entry point. I think that
Post by Arlen Beiler
here everything starts with TiddlyWiki.com. So once the StackExchange site
is in beta we can put that on TiddlyWiki.com.
"Single Entry Point" is a very good idea for any community working in
"Transmedia" environment. The problem with TW site is it's inconsistency
with one of the TW principles: Anything Is a Tiddler
<http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/113999350/Anything%20Is%20a%20Tiddler>.
In my experience, "Anything" means anything. If I have, for example,
"TiddlyWiki Mailing List" in mind, I should be able to find it in the
"Topic Search" bar on TW site. It's not there, unfortunately. To my
understanding, it is not there because TW site is following the common (and
may be obsolete?) principles of sequential and hierarchical organisation
information. Same principles can be seen in books, file systems, street
maps, etc.
Don't take me wrong, hierarchy is great for discovering and learning
purposes, when I don't know what expect from this particular site or field
of knowledge. However, it's inapplicable to my "finding" activities when I
am absolutely sure that the content is "there" and under that particular
title. This "Direct Access to Particular Topics" mode is not realised on TW
yet.
Here is how it is realised on LiM: http://confocal-manawatu.
pbworks.com/w/page/104863210/Direct%20Access%20to%20LikeInMind%20Pages
Type a topic, and you will be either transferred onto that particular
page, or asked to create a missing page. In the latter case, there is a
number of scenarios I would prefer to talk later.
In my experience again (sorry for being spoiled by "knowledge networking"
technique), I do not have to remember what and where was and have to be
published. I open a Topic and see all the links I need for communication,
as well as the summary of that communication, like on this page prepared
for TiddlyWiki Development Plans
<http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/114118636/TiddlyWiki%20Development%20Plans>.
I have no expectations in regards to the content of this page but allow it
developed as adequate to the actual situation as needed for my immediate
actions and reuse.
In my experience, if I divide information in pieces (tiddlers), I do that
in purpose, and the purpose is the reuse of those particular bits of
information. Reuse means accessibility. Accessibility can be provided only
when each particular tiddler can be found / directly accessed, or
discovered in seconds. Any kind of forum, GGroops, ReddIt, etc., are not
made for the purpose. They are good for discussions of massive number of
participants, as a primary source of information. However, for "decision
making" and fast action they are not applicable. One would need to go
through all the posts, before sense formed and prepared for a decision. The
latter means that every decision is based on "reinvention of a wheel" done
previously by someone else, on the same topic, in similar situations.
That's how I see place and role of Knowledge Network vs Forums.
<http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/64408923/Knowledge%20Network%20vs%20Forums>
As someone already mentioned on this forum, federation of tiddlers is as
important as federation of the structuring of the knowledge networks.
LikeInMind methodology and PBWorks technology are flexible enough to allow
federation of anything.
- scattering of resources between various platforms (Transmedia
environment) puts a barrier to accessibility to particular knowledge.
- knowledge networking (interconnection of relevant tiddlers into
taxonomies and networks) removes the barrier and allows any particular
tiddler found / discovered in seconds
These are the fundamentals for LikeInMind knowledge networking platform I
am planning to transfer into the TiddlyWiki format, a format of future P2P
Web, to my understanding.
Thank you All for what you have developed,
my special thanks to Jeremy Ruston
<http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/114069544/Jeremy%20Ruston>
Dmitry
Post by Arlen Beiler
- TW on SO looks not very popular
- our activities will be scattered between the platforms
- an environment linking all the bits and pieces similar to
LikeInMind will be required, to have all knowledge reliably found,
discovered and retrieved
Every information/documentation system has an entry point. I think that
here everything starts with TiddlyWiki.com. So once the StackExchange site
is in beta we can put that on TiddlyWiki.com.
People find the other resources through that most likely, as well as
through Google perhaps. Group users do a lot of stuff with the group, and
the main complaint is that there is no way to keep old content accessible.
A StackExchange site will probably take care of the technical questions.
Your PBWorks site is useful, though. Many people compile lists of
information in different ways and different people like different ways, so
more regular TiddlyWiki users may use your list to find resources.
TiddlyWiki on Stack Overflow is not used because no one has been
monitoring it or pointing to it. However, if we create a StackExchange
site, it will become used a lot, because we'll start sending people over
there with their questions.
I don't think we will get too scattered. This is reminding me of a swarm
of honeybees. When they swarm, most of them will go find a tree and sit
there while the scouts go out and decide where to make their new home. Then
the scouts come back and talk to each other and keep going back and forth
till they decide. Then they all go to the new place.
In the same way, any solution we find is going to be community driven, so
if it doesn't take we'll all come back here and regroup. People generally
like cohesiveness, so we will probably find ways to make it work. Most of
the discussion here is just exploring different options. Even the
StackExchange proposal is part of that discussion.
3b - StackExchange/Overflow initiative that Arlen is advancing covers
some of the same territory as 3a. The difference between Reddit &
StackOverflow, as far as I grasp it, is it is a bit more orientated to
technical specificity than Reddit. Supporting supplementary wikis looks a
bit more difficult. Getting people involved requires numbers. The barriers
to full entry look kinda high, though it would register real commitment if
achieved. Arlen will correct me if I am wrong (please).
I think that a StackExchange site will have a fairly strong amount of
support. Wiki info may be difficult. WikiBooks or Reddit may be a very
useful answer. There is a documentation feature on Stack Overflow that may
be available on other sites. We could use it as a starting point.
I don't think that the entry requirements are very formidable given the
size of our Google Group. Once we get to beta we will find out, though.
Even if we don't end up with a StackExchange site, we could consider using
the tag on Stack Overflow.
Thanks,
-Arlen
-------------------------------------------------------
I'm supporting a proposal to create a new Q&A website for anyone who uses
TiddlyWiki, and anyone who develops for TiddlyWiki.
It's built on the same software as stackoverflow.com, a hugely popular
site where over seven million programmers help each other with difficult
programming problems. On Stack Overflow the audience votes for the best
answer, so the answer you want is usually right at the top, not on page
five.
I'm hoping that a site for anyone who uses TiddlyWiki, and anyone who
develops for TiddlyWiki would have the same kind of network effect and turn
into an amazing resource.
http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/105326/tiddlywiki?
referrer=kk4xS6VP59WB49QQOgt7xA2
If you're interested in participating, go to that URL and click on the
orange "Follow It!" button.
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Dmitry Sokolov
2016-12-28 05:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Thank you very much Arlen!!
Sorry for my lack of abilities to talk simple language easy to understand.

Thank you,
Dmitry
Post by Arlen Beiler
Ah, interesting. I think I am understanding :)
Arlen,
Every information/documentation system has an entry point. I
think that here everything starts with TiddlyWiki.com. So once
the StackExchange site is in beta we can put that on
TiddlyWiki.com.
"Single Entry Point" is a very good idea for any community working
in "Transmedia" environment. The problem with TW site is it's
inconsistency with one of the TW principles: Anything Is a Tiddler
<http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/113999350/Anything%20Is%20a%20Tiddler>.
In my experience, "Anything" means anything. If I have, for
example, "TiddlyWiki Mailing List" in mind, I should be able to
find it in the "Topic Search" bar on TW site. It's not there,
unfortunately. To my understanding, it is not there because TW
site is following the common (and may be obsolete?) principles of
sequential and hierarchical organisation information. Same
principles can be seen in books, file systems, street maps, etc.
Don't take me wrong, hierarchy is great for discovering and
learning purposes, when I don't know what expect from this
particular site or field of knowledge. However, it's inapplicable
to my "finding" activities when I am absolutely sure that the
content is "there" and under that particular title. This "Direct
Access to Particular Topics" mode is not realised on TW yet.
http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/104863210/Direct%20Access%20to%20LikeInMind%20Pages
<http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/104863210/Direct%20Access%20to%20LikeInMind%20Pages>
Type a topic, and you will be either transferred onto that
particular page, or asked to create a missing page. In the latter
case, there is a number of scenarios I would prefer to talk later.
In my experience again (sorry for being spoiled by "knowledge
networking" technique), I do not have to remember what and where
was and have to be published. I open a Topic and see all the links
I need for communication, as well as the summary of that
communication, like on this page prepared for TiddlyWiki
Development Plans
<http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/114118636/TiddlyWiki%20Development%20Plans>.
I have no expectations in regards to the content of this page but
allow it developed as adequate to the actual situation as needed
for my immediate actions and reuse.
In my experience, if I divide information in pieces (tiddlers), I
do that in purpose, and the purpose is the reuse of those
particular bits of information. Reuse means accessibility.
Accessibility can be provided only when each particular tiddler
can be found / directly accessed, or discovered in seconds. Any
kind of forum, GGroops, ReddIt, etc., are not made for the
purpose. They are good for discussions of massive number of
participants, as a primary source of information. However, for
"decision making" and fast action they are not applicable. One
would need to go through all the posts, before sense formed and
prepared for a decision. The latter means that every decision is
based on "reinvention of a wheel" done previously by someone else,
on the same topic, in similar situations. That's how I see place
and role of Knowledge Network vs Forums.
<http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/64408923/Knowledge%20Network%20vs%20Forums>
As someone already mentioned on this forum, federation of tiddlers
is as important as federation of the structuring of the knowledge
networks. LikeInMind methodology and PBWorks technology are
flexible enough to allow federation of anything.
* scattering of resources between various platforms (Transmedia
environment) puts a barrier to accessibility to particular knowledge.
* knowledge networking (interconnection of relevant tiddlers
into taxonomies and networks) removes the barrier and allows
any particular tiddler found / discovered in seconds
These are the fundamentals for LikeInMind knowledge networking
platform I am planning to transfer into the TiddlyWiki format, a
format of future P2P Web, to my understanding.
Thank you All for what you have developed,
my special thanks to Jeremy Ruston
<http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/114069544/Jeremy%20Ruston>
Dmitry
* TW on SO looks not very popular
* our activities will be scattered between the platforms
o an environment linking all the bits and pieces
similar to LikeInMind will be required, to have
all knowledge reliably found, discovered and retrieved
Every information/documentation system has an entry point. I
think that here everything starts with TiddlyWiki.com. So once
the StackExchange site is in beta we can put that on
TiddlyWiki.com.
People find the other resources through that most likely, as
well as through Google perhaps. Group users do a lot of stuff
with the group, and the main complaint is that there is no way
to keep old content accessible. A StackExchange site will
probably take care of the technical questions.
Your PBWorks site is useful, though. Many people compile lists
of information in different ways and different people like
different ways, so more regular TiddlyWiki users may use your
list to find resources.
TiddlyWiki on Stack Overflow is not used because no one has
been monitoring it or pointing to it. However, if we create a
StackExchange site, it will become used a lot, because we'll
start sending people over there with their questions.
I don't think we will get too scattered. This is reminding me
of a swarm of honeybees. When they swarm, most of them will go
find a tree and sit there while the scouts go out and decide
where to make their new home. Then the scouts come back and
talk to each other and keep going back and forth till they
decide. Then they all go to the new place.
In the same way, any solution we find is going to be community
driven, so if it doesn't take we'll all come back here and
regroup. People generally like cohesiveness, so we will
probably find ways to make it work. Most of the discussion
here is just exploring different options. Even the
StackExchange proposal is part of that discussion.
3b - StackExchange/Overflow initiative that Arlen is
advancing covers some of the same territory as 3a. The
difference between Reddit & StackOverflow, as far as I
grasp it, is it is a bit more orientated to technical
specificity than Reddit. Supporting supplementary wikis
looks a bit more difficult. Getting people involved
requires numbers. The barriers to full entry look kinda
high, though it would register real commitment if
achieved. Arlen will correct me if I am wrong (please).
I think that a StackExchange site will have a fairly strong
amount of support. Wiki info may be difficult. WikiBooks or
Reddit may be a very useful answer. There is a documentation
feature on Stack Overflow that may be available on other
sites. We could use it as a starting point.
I don't think that the entry requirements are very formidable
given the size of our Google Group. Once we get to beta we
will find out, though. Even if we don't end up with a
StackExchange site, we could consider using the tag on Stack
Overflow.
Thanks,
-Arlen
-------------------------------------------------------
I'm supporting a proposal to create a new Q&A website for
anyone who uses TiddlyWiki, and anyone who develops for
TiddlyWiki.
It's built on the same software as stackoverflow.com
<http://stackoverflow.com/>, a hugely popular site where over
seven million programmers help each other with difficult
programming problems. On Stack Overflow the audience votes for
the best answer, so the answer you want is usually right at
the top, not on page five.
I'm hoping that a site for anyone who uses TiddlyWiki, and
anyone who develops for TiddlyWiki would have the same kind of
network effect and turn into an amazing resource.
http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/105326/tiddlywiki?referrer=kk4xS6VP59WB49QQOgt7xA2
<http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/105326/tiddlywiki?referrer=kk4xS6VP59WB49QQOgt7xA2>
If you're interested in participating, go to that URL and
click on the orange "Follow It!" button.
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Dmitry Sokolov
2016-12-27 23:35:33 UTC
Permalink
Josiah,
thank you for the summary.
It is published on LiM to be refined with time:
http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/114120781/TiddlyWiki%20Communication%20Protocol

Cheers,
Dmitry
Post by Josiah
Ciao Tobias and all
I delayed replying because I wanted to review what everyone has written,
both here and in the parallel thread on Stack Exchange.
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/ZjVj_X_2BKY>
1 - A absolutely agree that the CORE work on Github is likely as good as
is it could be. It works.
2 - I also agree that this Google Group is very good for ONGOING ISSUES.
2a - BUT its also very poor at registering its own history. SOME things
that happen here deserve persistent attention. THIS discussion itself is an
example. As Google Groups is we will lose it unless action is taken whilst
its at the forefront. As is this discussion has forked and its already got
unwieldy to follow unless your manually cross-reference and care to read
several threads.
2b - Helpful for this Group might be a top placed search address (that
Wimm suggested) that helps you look at the archive for this group in a more
useable way to: Search This Group.
to Jeremy that he consider adding it to the intro section for the group.)
3a - Riz's Reddit initiative at https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/ is
a serious effort and in many ways is a very good environment to ask
questions. The easy re-editing so you can keep tightening one's post. (I
don't re-edit much here on GG as I'm aware no email recipient would see the
changes. But good questions deserve honing until they are as clear as
possible.) The better visual layout. Tagging. Upvoting. Additional Wikis.
All very easy.
3b - StackExchange/Overflow initiative that Arlen is advancing covers some
of the same territory as 3a. The difference between Reddit & StackOverflow,
as far as I grasp it, is it is a bit more orientated to technical
specificity than Reddit. Supporting supplementary wikis looks a bit more
difficult. Getting people involved requires numbers. The barriers to full
entry look kinda high, though it would register real commitment if
achieved. Arlen will correct me if I am wrong (please).
I would like, from my perspective, to ADD need for ...
4 - SHOWCASES. I mean COMPLETE TW's in a gallery system so you can, in ONE
place, see what has been done. (I have learned MOST from seeing what others
have done in finished, replete, TW's rather than minimal demos.)
You talk about the "organic" process of sifting forward. The problem with
"organic" is its so flexible its also in danger of becoming also "survival
of the loudest" or "the lowest common denominator". Sometimes things get
better through it. Sometimes not. In the back of my mind is casualties
along the way.
OVERALL my sense is we are a lot closer to a workable consensus right now
than has been the case for a long time. I hope it will fruit.
Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Tobias Beer
Hi Josiah,
You brought up TWEderation as an example for let's say "more scattered"
information than you'd like that somehow doesn't organize nearly as good as
you wish and where you believe reddit could provide a better environment to
more efficiently bring the lose pieces together.
The first point I would make is that TWEderation is a community effort
(one which I have hardly been involved in due to a new job I've been
working for the better part of this year now, sry about that, Jed & Mat).
However, much more so than for the TiddlyWiki core, if you have something
emerge out of a community effort, of course you'll be looking at a highly
organic project with goals and ideas being addressed and discussed and
tested that perhaps feel a bit like moving goalposts and so you may find it
difficult to get to the bottom of it or whatever you try to do with it or
find out.
However, I would not project this kind of project-/-plugin-motivated
effort onto the TiddlyWiki project as the underlying foundation, even
though the core may as well present a wide range of topics that beg
addressing and leave you on a quest to figuring out the right entry point
to get things moving or just be able to simply "use" something, you know,
do as others did.
Although perhaps cumbersome, the process to contribute to improving the
core documentation is quite established, from my point of view... while
sure leaving room for improvement here and there.
Sure, bringing community documentation together and wrapping all that up
in a more unified searchable tagable folksonomy is an entirely different
thing. So, perhaps, with all the efforts on (that) reddit, perhaps the best
focus for it would be to establishing a kind of "knowledge-base" that does
not itself hold the information you're looking for, but only abstracts for
it, but mostly providing an environment for gathering pointers... to all
the bits of information out there that may help you answer a question or
achieve a goal... while leaving lengthy, at times philosophical ponderings
as well as "please help me" requests in the groups and efforts for a solid
core documentation to the more github oriented workflow.
So, from a practical point of view, maybe we should discuss separation of
concerns rather than try to figure out the best environment for everything.
*Google Groups*: whatever you want to discuss (in context)
*TiddlyWiki on GitHub*: if you wish to improve the core (docs)
*Reddit*: if you wish to tie otherwise lose ends together in terms of
bits of information pointing elsewhere
maybe even a dedicated...
*StackOverflow:* for figuring things out regarding the core, plugins,
themes from a developer / designer point of view
...something along these lines.
Best wishes,
Tobias.
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Tobias Beer
2016-12-28 12:53:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dmitry,
Which LiM <http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/LIM> would you be thinking
of?

Best wishes,

Tobias.
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Dmitry Sokolov
2016-12-29 09:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tobias,

it's LikeInMind. Sorry, not listed in the Free Dictionary yet.

Cheers,
Dmitry
Post by Tobias Beer
Hi Dmitry,
Which LiM <http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/LIM> would you be
thinking of?
Best wishes,
Tobias.
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Josiah
2016-12-12 13:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Mat

On most things I know jack-shit. On Twitter I know what I am talking about.
The Twitter UUID system is elegant & minimalist. Its final result is best
viewed in Tweetdeck rather than vanilla Twitter. Tweetdeck makes best use
of it. The threading system that depends on the UUID is excellent in the
way its implemented. Its user focused, meaning the entry point in the
thread you view is at the point you commented. You can navigate & branch
anyway you want from there.

I think its an excellent model to look at in the context of TWED.

Best wishes
Josiah
... how about a twitteresque system with UUIDs as hashtags (with potential
aliases) for original issues and replies/whatever to such issues can be
tagged with these UUIDs to associate it with the original issue.
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Josiah
2016-12-06 17:09:33 UTC
Permalink
I just replied to Riz on Reddit as follows ...

http://tinyurl.com/zfdmo29 ....

I have both initiated and participated in several debates over
documentation for TiddlyWiki. As this one goes on I have the sense its a
LOT better than previous discussions.


There is some chance it might fruit.


A big difference from previous discussions is there is a much broader
IMPLICIT understanding, somewhat absent before, that (1) documentation does
NOT have to involve vast effort external to ongoing discussion; (2) that
proto-documentation is already in the Google Group discussions everyday;
(3) Google Groups is a big part of the problem as it works as an ongoing
flow that loses its own history all the time.
Post by Josiah
Ciao tutti
In the last two weeks I've had extensive private correspondence with three
folk over on Twitter who want to know where to find the "real
documentation" for TiddlyWiki. After pointing to what documentation there
is I suggested they ask in the group on specific things they want to do.
If I hadn't engaged in that discussion with them I would never have know
there are potential users who are likely passing on from not being able to
grasp enough quickly enough to be able to utilise TW well.
I think its a problem (for them at least) as is.
Just saying ...
Josiah
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PMario
2017-01-19 11:35:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi Folks,

I did create a TiddlyWiki Community Challenge
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/SvhDqChJRsM>! Which may
help us to get more stars and may be more contributors.

Everyone, who posted to this thread, and didn't have starred the TiddlyWiki
repo <https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5>is invited to do so!

have fun!
mario
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