Discussion:
[tw] [TW5] several questions for migrating/using TW5
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Yakov
2014-11-02 19:06:14 UTC
Permalink
Hi guys,

I'm trying to adapt TW5 to certain limited needs while exploring its
capabilities and here are several notes/questions:

1. I'd like to take advantage of TW5 encryption. Does it still encrypt only
the whole TW or there's a possibility to encrypt single tiddlers?

2. Double click doesn't open a tiddler for editing. Will this behaviour be
implemented in TW5?

3. I haven't found a way to add DOM classes inline (like {{myClass{text}}}
in TWc), only inline styles and block styles/classes [1]. Will there be
some syntax to do this?

4. In TiddlyWiki.com, permalink/permaview are now shown in the toolbars.
Of'course, I can unhide them each time, but it would be more convenient if
they are shown (mostly permalink on tiddlers).

5. In default theme, the EditTemplate (or how it is called in TW5) doesn't
look simple at all (while Jeremy wrote that simplicity is of importance for
attracting new users a while ago). Also, the edit area itself occupies very
part of the tiddler area. I'd propose some adjustments:
-- move "show preview" to the toolbar
-- hide the "Use wiki text <http://tiddlywiki.com/static/WikiText.html> to
add formatting, images, and dynamic features" tip to some sort of "info
section" which is to be toggled by a button in the toolbar (just like the
info button in the view mode toggles info)
-- put the content type chooser and the field adder in the same line (added
fields are displayed in separate lines anyway)
-- probably reduce margine of the edit area at least by third

6. Are there sections, slices or stuff like that in TW5? Some means of
usage TW in a "database-like" style (like using ForEachTiddlerPlugin or
GridPlugin [2]) -- with the content shown inside the tiddler text? May be
even some tools to aggregate such tables within the core?

Best regards,
Yakov.

[1] http://tiddlywiki.com/#Styles%20and%20Classes%20in%20WikiText
[2] tiddlytools.com/#GridPluginInfo
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Yakov
2014-11-02 19:12:26 UTC
Permalink
PS Ok, one more note:

7. when I add a tag or a field and then press esc (cancel), no prompt like
"are you sure that you'd like to abandon the changes" is displayed.
Post by Yakov
Hi guys,
I'm trying to adapt TW5 to certain limited needs while exploring its
1. I'd like to take advantage of TW5 encryption. Does it still encrypt
only the whole TW or there's a possibility to encrypt single tiddlers?
2. Double click doesn't open a tiddler for editing. Will this behaviour be
implemented in TW5?
3. I haven't found a way to add DOM classes inline (like {{myClass{text}}}
in TWc), only inline styles and block styles/classes [1]. Will there be
some syntax to do this?
4. In TiddlyWiki.com, permalink/permaview are now shown in the toolbars.
Of'course, I can unhide them each time, but it would be more convenient if
they are shown (mostly permalink on tiddlers).
5. In default theme, the EditTemplate (or how it is called in TW5) doesn't
look simple at all (while Jeremy wrote that simplicity is of importance for
attracting new users a while ago). Also, the edit area itself occupies very
-- move "show preview" to the toolbar
-- hide the "Use wiki text <http://tiddlywiki.com/static/WikiText.html>
to add formatting, images, and dynamic features" tip to some sort of
"info section" which is to be toggled by a button in the toolbar (just like
the info button in the view mode toggles info)
-- put the content type chooser and the field adder in the same line
(added fields are displayed in separate lines anyway)
-- probably reduce margine of the edit area at least by third
6. Are there sections, slices or stuff like that in TW5? Some means of
usage TW in a "database-like" style (like using ForEachTiddlerPlugin or
GridPlugin [2]) -- with the content shown inside the tiddler text? May be
even some tools to aggregate such tables within the core?
Best regards,
Yakov.
[1] http://tiddlywiki.com/#Styles%20and%20Classes%20in%20WikiText
[2] tiddlytools.com/#GridPluginInfo
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Stephan Hradek
2014-11-02 19:40:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yakov
Hi guys,
I'm trying to adapt TW5 to certain limited needs while exploring its
1. I'd like to take advantage of TW5 encryption. Does it still encrypt
only the whole TW or there's a possibility to encrypt single tiddlers?
The Whole - but If I'm not mistaken there is a plugin to encrypt single
tiddlers. Use the search function in this group.
Post by Yakov
2. Double click doesn't open a tiddler for editing. Will this behaviour be
implemented in TW5?
I hope not. I like it to be able to select word-wise by double clicking the
first word I want to select.
Post by Yakov
3. I haven't found a way to add DOM classes inline (like {{myClass{text}}}
in TWc), only inline styles and block styles/classes [1]. Will there be
some syntax to do this?
What does this do? You can add <span class="myclass">text</span>. You can
even create Templates or macros for that.
Post by Yakov
4. In TiddlyWiki.com, permalink/permaview are now shown in the toolbars.
Of'course, I can unhide them each time, but it would be more convenient if
they are shown (mostly permalink on tiddlers).
Why would it be more convenient? I don't want to see them. It's sufficient
for me to be able to grab them from the sidebar's open-tab. I see no use in
actually seeing them.
Post by Yakov
5. In default theme, the EditTemplate (or how it is called in TW5) doesn't
look simple at all (while Jeremy wrote that simplicity is of importance for
attracting new users a while ago). Also, the edit area itself occupies very
-- move "show preview" to the toolbar
-- hide the "Use wiki text <http://tiddlywiki.com/static/WikiText.html>
to add formatting, images, and dynamic features" tip to some sort of
"info section" which is to be toggled by a button in the toolbar (just like
the info button in the view mode toggles info)
-- put the content type chooser and the field adder in the same line
(added fields are displayed in separate lines anyway)
-- probably reduce margine of the edit area at least by third
I disagree. But you're free to tweak the templates to your likings.
Post by Yakov
6. Are there sections, slices or stuff like that in TW5? Some means of
usage TW in a "database-like" style (like using ForEachTiddlerPlugin or
GridPlugin [2]) -- with the content shown inside the tiddler text? May be
even some tools to aggregate such tables within the core?
slices - no, except kind of in data dictionary tiddlers
sections, stuff - not that I know ;)
"database-like" / foreach - have you seen the list widget?
Post by Yakov
7. when I add a tag or a field and then press esc (cancel), no prompt
like "are you sure that you'd like to abandon the changes" is displayed.
And that's good!
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Sylvain Naudin
2014-11-02 19:49:21 UTC
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1. I'd like to take advantage of TW5 encryption. Does it still encrypt only
Post by Stephan Hradek
Post by Yakov
the whole TW or there's a possibility to encrypt single tiddlers?
The Whole - but If I'm not mistaken there is a plugin to encrypt single
tiddlers. Use the search function in this group.
Yes there is a plugin from Danielo :

http://braintest.tiddlyspot.com/#:Encrypt-Tiddler
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Yakov
2014-11-02 20:53:13 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, Sylvain.

вПскресеМье, 2 МПября 2014 г., 22:49:21 UTC+3 пПльзПватель Sylvain Naudin
Post by Yakov
1. I'd like to take advantage of TW5 encryption. Does it still encrypt
Post by Stephan Hradek
Post by Yakov
only the whole TW or there's a possibility to encrypt single tiddlers?
The Whole - but If I'm not mistaken there is a plugin to encrypt single
tiddlers. Use the search function in this group.
http://braintest.tiddlyspot.com/#:Encrypt-Tiddler
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Yakov
2014-11-02 22:08:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephan Hradek
Post by Yakov
2. Double click doesn't open a tiddler for editing. Will this behaviour
be implemented in TW5?
I hope not. I like it to be able to select word-wise by double clicking
the first word I want to select.
Well, I'm asking about the plans; anyway it's no problem to implement that
as an optional feature governed by a param.
Post by Stephan Hradek
Post by Yakov
3. I haven't found a way to add DOM classes inline (like
{{myClass{text}}} in TWc), only inline styles and block styles/classes
[1]. Will there be some syntax to do this?
What does this do? You can add <span class="myclass">text</span>. You can
even create Templates or macros for that.
I use this heavily with CSS in TWc, the options you propose are too long to
write each time (I use them for different semantic highlightning). I've
heard about some kind of "definitions" which allow to define new syntaxes
like old-school "+++[label]stuff===" for sliders etc, but I don't remember
the name of the mechanism.. Can anyone help with that?
Post by Stephan Hradek
4. In TiddlyWiki.com, permalink/permaview are now shown in the toolbars.
Post by Yakov
Of'course, I can unhide them each time, but it would be more convenient if
they are shown (mostly permalink on tiddlers).
Why would it be more convenient? I don't want to see them. It's sufficient
for me to be able to grab them from the sidebar's open-tab. I see no use in
actually seeing them.
They are needed for referencing and sharing links. The trick you propose is
ok, although it requires more clicks (while with proper keyboard shortcuts
permalink method requires only one). After all, one more icon wouldn't
hurt, I guess.
Post by Stephan Hradek
Post by Yakov
5. In default theme, the EditTemplate (or how it is called in TW5)
doesn't look simple at all (while Jeremy wrote that simplicity is of
importance for attracting new users a while ago). Also, the edit area
-- move "show preview" to the toolbar
-- hide the "Use wiki text <http://tiddlywiki.com/static/WikiText.html>
to add formatting, images, and dynamic features" tip to some sort of
"info section" which is to be toggled by a button in the toolbar (just like
the info button in the view mode toggles info)
-- put the content type chooser and the field adder in the same line
(added fields are displayed in separate lines anyway)
-- probably reduce margine of the edit area at least by third
I disagree. But you're free to tweak the templates to your likings.
Well, if you don't provide arguments, it sounds like you disagree for the
sake of disagreement (considering the rest of you response). Back to TWc,
Jeremy refused to add some command to EditTemplate (references or jump, if
I'm not mistaken) for the sake of simplicity; for now, the EditTemplate is
not simple at all and it's much more complicated (or piled, it's better to
say) than that of TWc...
Post by Stephan Hradek
Post by Yakov
6. Are there sections, slices or stuff like that in TW5? Some means of
usage TW in a "database-like" style (like using ForEachTiddlerPlugin or
GridPlugin [2]) -- with the content shown inside the tiddler text? May be
even some tools to aggregate such tables within the core?
slices - no, except kind of in data dictionary tiddlers
sections, stuff - not that I know ;)
"database-like" / foreach - have you seen the list widget?
I haven't explored it fully (may be there's more power behind templates
than I know for now); when there's no distinguishing of sub-data, I won't
expect that it's possible to build some representation for it. An example
of what I mean:

in TWc, I have different sets of tiddlers, for instance
title:
<name of a pupil>
tags:
pupils
text:
|form|7a-1|
|remarks about character|...|
|things to remember|...|
...

and I aggregate values of slices for different pupils into different
(interactive) tables. On the other hand, sometimes I open tiddlers of
certain pupils to see and analyse different stuff, so I need these to be in
the tiddler text (not in the rather hidden fields).
Post by Stephan Hradek
Post by Yakov
7. when I add a tag or a field and then press esc (cancel), no prompt
like "are you sure that you'd like to abandon the changes" is displayed.
And that's good!
My opinion is different because this increases a possibility of unexpected
data loss; the behaviour can be made switchable via settings as well.

Best regards,
Yakov.
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Stephan Hradek
2014-11-03 06:50:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yakov
I use this heavily with CSS in TWc, the options you propose are too long
to write each time
That's why I said: You can create a macro for that. <<myClass "text">>
isn't so much more to write. You just have to once create a macro

\define myClass(text) <span class="myClass">$text$</span>

Or a more generic one: <<class "myClass" "text">>

\define class(myclass, text) <span class="$myclass$">$text$</span>
Post by Yakov
(I use them for different semantic highlightning). I've heard about some
kind of "definitions" which allow to define new syntaxes like old-school
"+++[label]stuff===" for sliders etc, but I don't remember the name of the
mechanism.. Can anyone help with that?
rules?
Post by Yakov
They are needed for referencing and sharing links. The trick you propose
is ok, although it requires more clicks (while with proper keyboard
shortcuts permalink method requires only one). After all, one more icon
wouldn't hurt, I guess.
One more icon for your permalinks, one more icon for pining tiddlers, one
more icon for... whatever... You see: Every icon is "just one more" and I
think there shouldn't be more than three, at most five.

I like the current simplicity and after all: All this can be tweaked so
that you have it.
Post by Yakov
Post by Stephan Hradek
I disagree. But you're free to tweak the templates to your likings.
Well, if you don't provide arguments, it sounds like you disagree for the
sake of disagreement
I disagree because I like the current simplicity and I like the fact that
it's not too difficult to tweak almost everything about TW5. I do not think
that we should change the current vanilla TW5 which is here for, well,
almost 3 years now.
Post by Yakov
(considering the rest of you response).
considering your post, I got the impression that you didn't look too much
into TW5 but simply hoped to have an updated TWc. Sorry when I'm doing you
wrong.
Post by Yakov
for now, the EditTemplate is not simple at all and it's much more
complicated (or piled, it's better to say) than that of TWc...
That's your view. I can't remember too many complains about it in the last
2 years. But let's wait what others think.
Post by Yakov
I haven't explored it fully (may be there's more power behind templates
than I know for now); when there's no distinguishing of sub-data, I won't
expect that it's possible to build some representation for it. An example
[...]
and I aggregate values of slices for different pupils into different
(interactive) tables. On the other hand, sometimes I open tiddlers of
certain pupils to see and analyse different stuff, so I need these to be in
the tiddler text (not in the rather hidden fields).
Maybe Datatiddlers http://tiddlywiki.com/#DataTiddlers are sufficient? The
representation is not as nice as a table, but I think they should give you
all the rest.

But you can as well stick to fields if you create an edit template for you
pupils. See for example my (a bit outdated) simple "Person DB" on
http://tw5magick.tiddlyspot.com/
Post by Yakov
Post by Stephan Hradek
Post by Yakov
7. when I add a tag or a field and then press esc (cancel), no prompt
like "are you sure that you'd like to abandon the changes" is displayed.
And that's good!
My opinion is different because this increases a possibility of
unexpected data loss; the behaviour can be made switchable via settings as
well.
How much would you loose? 1 word? I think it would be better to add the
Return-key here for entering a tag. After all: Esc is usually for leaving
something without changing values.
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Mat
2014-11-03 06:49:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yakov
4. In TiddlyWiki.com, permalink/permaview are now shown in the toolbars.
Of'course, I can unhide them each time, but it would be more convenient if
they are shown (mostly permalink on tiddlers).
If you check the checkbox, aren't they shown there permanently?
Post by Yakov
5. In default theme, the EditTemplate (or how it is called in TW5) doesn't
look simple at all (while Jeremy wrote that simplicity
I suggested a layout redesign (attached below) a while ago and got some
positive response to some of it, but not sure what happened after that.

<:-)
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PMario
2014-11-03 09:48:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yakov
4. In TiddlyWiki.com, permalink/permaview are now shown in the toolbars.
Of'course, I can unhide them each time, but it would be more convenient if
they are shown (mostly permalink on tiddlers).
If you open the tiddler (i)nfo button, you can select, which buttons are
permanently added to the tiddler toolbar.
Same with the sidebar.

-m
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PMario
2014-11-03 09:51:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yakov
3. I haven't found a way to add DOM classes inline (like {{myClass{text}}}
in TWc), only inline styles and block styles/classes [1]. Will there be
some syntax to do this?
see:
http://tiddlywiki.com/#Styles%20and%20Classes%20in%20WikiText:WikiText%20%5B%5BStyles%20and%20Classes%20in%20WikiText%5D%5D

-m
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PMario
2014-11-03 09:53:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yakov
2. Double click doesn't open a tiddler for editing. Will this behaviour be
implemented in TW5?
As far as I know, it's not planned. IMO the main reason is, that users
expect a browser double click to select a word and not change the view
mode.

-m
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Tobias Beer
2014-11-13 13:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by PMario
As far as I know, it's not planned. IMO the main reason is, that users
expect a browser double click to select a word and not change the view
mode.
-m
To me, that's the single most feature used when editing a tw and that's
usually what I do in my wikis... I edit them. So, it would be more than
welcome to have that option, whereas selecting a word by double-clicking is
something I hardly ever do.
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Danielo Rodríguez
2014-11-13 14:05:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tobias Beer
To me, that's the single most feature used when editing a tw and that's
usually what I do in my wikis... I edit them. So, it would be more than
welcome to have that option, whereas selecting a word by double-clicking is
something I hardly ever do.
I think you are being a little selfish here. You want your feature back,
it's ok, but is not te expected behavior for most of the users. Double
click for edit was the most anoying feature that TWC has, and I hated it a
lot. In my work we use a ticketing system where I edit a lot of
information, I promisse, and I hate the double click to edit feautre that
some fields has. What's wrong with clicking on a button?
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Eric Shulman
2014-11-13 23:24:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tobias Beer
To me, that's the single most feature used when editing a tw and that's
Post by Tobias Beer
usually what I do in my wikis... I edit them. So, it would be more than
welcome to have that option, whereas selecting a word by double-clicking is
something I hardly ever do.
I think you are being a little selfish here. You want your feature back,
it's ok, but is not te expected behavior for most of the users. Double
click for edit was the most anoying feature that TWC has, and I hated it a
lot. In my work we use a ticketing system where I edit a lot of
information, I promisse, and I hate the double
click to edit feautre that some fields has. What's wrong with clicking on
Post by Tobias Beer
a button?
In matters of personal workflow, there are clearly different preferences
for the double-click behavior... and, despite what "most of the users" may
want, that isn't an argument against offering an optional alternative
behavior when possible, even if it is only desired by a minority of users.

Rather than arguing about individual use-case preferences, the discussion
should be about whether or not the core architecture supports the ability
to modify the double-click behavior, either by use of existing
configuration features, or by writing a plugin. Of course, if that kind of
customization isn't currently possible, then the discussion should shift to
what kind of changes would be needed to allow alternative double-click
handling, and the relative cost/benefit of implementing those changes in
the core.

Also, just for the record, in TiddlyWiki Classic, the ability to turn OFF
the doubleclick-to-edit behavior is VERY simple... in [[ToolbarCommands]],
change "+edit" to "edit" in the ViewToolbar slice definition. Just ONE
character to change, and your "hatred" for the "most annoying feature that
TWC has" is GONE.

enjoy,
-e
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Tobias Beer
2014-11-14 01:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi Danielo,
You want your feature back, it's ok, but is not te expected behavior for
most of the users.
In a visitor / web context I totally agree; from an editors point of view
not so much ...but this distinction concerns more than click-behavior.
Double click for edit was the most anoying feature that TWC has, and I
hated it a lot.
I can safely say that it took me a little bit to get the hang of it and
there has probably been that moment where I thought: *arghh,ok*. ^_^

What's wrong with clicking on a button?
Essentially, lot's of scrolling to the toolbar and then moving the mouse to
the right button, rather than a ridiculously simple and fast "click
anywhere". But that's just my 5 cents and I can totally understand if you
and others others prefer to be spared from it, so I'm not asking for
changing the default behavior, just emphasizing a desire for what Jeremy
suggested might be an optional feature at some point.

Best wishes, Tobias.
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Danielo Rodríguez
2014-11-14 07:29:17 UTC
Permalink
@Eric: You are right in most of you said but... why do I have to deactivate
a non-standard function? Is not better to activate it when needed?
Post by Tobias Beer
In a visitor / web context I totally agree; from an editors point of view
not so much ...but this distinction concerns more than click-behavior.
Just give me an example: how many programs that do you use allows double
click for editing something? Word? Excel? Notepad? LibreOffice? dokuWiki?
facebook? google Drive? How does programs manage double click?
Post by Tobias Beer
Essentially, lot's of scrolling to the toolbar and then moving the mouse
to the right button, rather than a ridiculously simple and fast "click
anywhere". But that's just my 5 cents and I can totally understand if you
and others others prefer to be spared from it, so I'm not asking for
changing the default behavior, just emphasizing a desire for what Jeremy
suggested might be an optional feature at some point.
I agree with that part, editing large text could be too much scoll but even
in this case I would prefer an alternative solucion. Maybe a floating
button, visible on-hover, maye a context menu.
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Tobias Beer
2014-11-14 09:46:55 UTC
Permalink
Just give me an example: how many programs that do you use allows double
click for editing something? Word? Excel? Notepad? LibreOffice? dokuWiki?
facebook? google Drive? How does programs manage double click?
tw2.;-)

You know how many times I have double-clicked or CTR-ENTERed in facebook? :D
I agree with that part, editing large text could be too much scoll but
even in this case I would prefer an alternative solucion. Maybe a floating
button, visible on-hover, maye a context menu.
Yes, those are good ideas as well, perhaps even an "on-hover" toolbar,
dynamically reattached to the bottom of a tiddler or floating in a fixed
position at the bottom of the story-display so long as we're in the middle
of a tiddler going beyond that screen All that sounds like a lot more
work, though.

Best wishes, Tobias.
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PMario
2014-11-03 09:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yakov
5. In default theme, the EditTemplate (or how it is called in TW5) doesn't
look simple at all (while Jeremy wrote that simplicity is of importance for
attracting new users a while ago). Also, the edit area itself occupies very
-- move "show preview" to the toolbar
-- hide the "Use wiki text <http://tiddlywiki.com/static/WikiText.html>
to add formatting, images, and dynamic features" tip to some sort of
"info section" which is to be toggled by a button in the toolbar (just like
the info button in the view mode toggles info)
-- put the content type chooser and the field adder in the same line
(added fields are displayed in separate lines anyway)
-- probably reduce margine of the edit area at least by third
see: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/506
and: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/170

There are probably more of them.

-mario
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PMario
2014-11-03 10:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yakov
6. Are there sections, slices or stuff like that in TW5? Some means of
usage TW in a "database-like" style (like using ForEachTiddlerPlugin or
GridPlugin [2]) -- with the content shown inside the tiddler text? May be
even some tools to aggregate such tables within the core?
The whole TW UI is built with the TW widgets. Especially the listWidget has
some "super powers" with special filters for almost everything.
It completely replaces fETplugin. ...

The EditTemlate is pure wikitext. Highly advanced wikitext but mastering it
will need some deep diving :)

But if you want to add / remove some elements form PageTemplate /
ViewTemplate / EditTemplate you probably just need a special system tag.
So just ask before you try to change the templates. May be there is an
easier solution.

-mario
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Jeremy Ruston
2014-11-03 18:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi Yakov
Post by Yakov
I'm trying to adapt TW5 to certain limited needs while exploring its
capabilities and here are several notes/questions:

Great, I'm glad to hear you're looking at TW5. I'll be interested in your
thoughts and feedback.

1. I'd like to take advantage of TW5 encryption. Does it still encrypt only
Post by Yakov
the whole TW or there's a possibility to encrypt single tiddlers?
As you've heard, single tiddler encryption is available via a plugin. It's
not something I'm planning for the core in the immediate future because I
think I'd like to learn more about the use cases and the desired
features/UI.
Post by Yakov
2. Double click doesn't open a tiddler for editing. Will this behaviour be
implemented in TW5?
I don't plan to introduce double click to edit by default, for the reason
given by Stephan: it breaks double-clicking to select text. But I would
like to include it as an option.
Post by Yakov
3. I haven't found a way to add DOM classes inline (like {{myClass{text}}}
in TWc), only inline styles and block styles/classes [1]. Will there be
some syntax to do this?
The TW5 equivalent is @@.myClass text@@. See:

http://tiddlywiki.com/#Styles%20and%20Classes%20in%20WikiText

The documentation only covers the block mode form, but it also works as
inline syntax:

@@.myClass This is some text with a class@@
@@background-color:red;This is some text with a background colour@@
@@width:100px;.myClass This is some text with a class and a width@@

4. In TiddlyWiki.com, permalink/permaview are now shown in the toolbars.
Post by Yakov
Of'course, I can unhide them each time, but it would be more convenient if
they are shown (mostly permalink on tiddlers).
I want to keep tiddlywiki.com simple, and so don't intend to have more than
three tiddler toolbar buttons shown by default. Hopefully it's easy enough
to use the tiddler info panel to access other toolbar buttons.

5. In default theme, the EditTemplate (or how it is called in TW5) doesn't
Post by Yakov
look simple at all (while Jeremy wrote that simplicity is of importance for
attracting new users a while ago). Also, the edit area itself occupies very
-- move "show preview" to the toolbar
-- hide the "Use wiki text <http://tiddlywiki.com/static/WikiText.html>
to add formatting, images, and dynamic features" tip to some sort of
"info section" which is to be toggled by a button in the toolbar (just like
the info button in the view mode toggles info)
-- put the content type chooser and the field adder in the same line
(added fields are displayed in separate lines anyway)
-- probably reduce margine of the edit area at least by third
As others have noted, there has been a lot of discussion about how best to
improve the edit template:

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/506
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/170

I'm keen to improve it.

6. Are there sections, slices or stuff like that in TW5? Some means of
Post by Yakov
usage TW in a "database-like" style (like using ForEachTiddlerPlugin or
GridPlugin [2]) -- with the content shown inside the tiddler text? May be
even some tools to aggregate such tables within the core?
No, there's no support for sections or slices. DataTiddlers are supported
which are somewhat similar to slices:

http://tiddlywiki.com/#DataTiddlers

There are many reasons that I've chosen not to support sections as part of
the core at the moment. One practical issue is that section parsing is
brittle and error prone if done with a simple regexp as in TWC, and
expensive if done with a full parse of the tiddler content

The bigger philosophical issue is that TiddlyWiki embodies the idea that
the smallest fundamental unit of information is a tiddler. The operations
that TiddlyWiki supports are inter-tiddler operations, that combine and
link individual, discrete tiddlers. Sections imply an algebra for
intra-tiddler operations, potentially duplicating the inter-tiddler
operations.

The purest expression of TiddlyWikis philosophy would be to break a tiddler
with sections into separate tiddlers, and transclude the sections back
together when you need to view them as a single unit.

None of that precludes adding section support, whether in the core or via a
plugin.

There are two approaches to consider:

* The TWC-like approach of referring to sections via a text reference (eg
title::section). Currently, text references give us a title, and optionally
either a field name or an index name (for data tiddlers). The knock-on
effects of extending that include a section name would impact an awful lot
of core code
* Supporting transcluding a fragment of a tiddler. This would just be an
extension to the transclude widget, and feels much more do-able

Best wishes

Jeremy
Post by Yakov
Best regards,
Yakov.
[1] http://tiddlywiki.com/#Styles%20and%20Classes%20in%20WikiText
[2] tiddlytools.com/#GridPluginInfo
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Tobias Beer
2014-11-11 15:24:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jeremy,
Post by Jeremy Ruston
The purest expression of TiddlyWikis philosophy would be to break a
tiddler with sections into separate tiddlers, and transclude the sections
back together when you need to view them as a single unit.
Perhaps this can be automated a little more, after all, and merged into a
compromise by inventing something like "section tiddlers" which could get...

- automatic titles based on parent + the section title
- allow for section ordering using some list field (not sure about
section nesting though)

As the chosen approach is slicing a section down to being a tiddler, that
means that supporting capabilities are somewhat desireable that help a user
to aggregate the now scattered contents, or display such now remote or
"hidden contents" (data, fields) in a somewhat editable / templatable
viewmode.

Tobias.
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Jeremy Ruston
2014-11-12 18:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tobias

I'm not sure that I fully understand your specific proposals, but I
certainly agree that the core should have more features to help people
split and aggregate tiddlers.

Best wishes

Jeremy.
Post by Tobias Beer
Hi Jeremy,
Post by Jeremy Ruston
The purest expression of TiddlyWikis philosophy would be to break a
tiddler with sections into separate tiddlers, and transclude the sections
back together when you need to view them as a single unit.
Perhaps this can be automated a little more, after all, and merged into a
compromise by inventing something like "section tiddlers" which could get...
- automatic titles based on parent + the section title
- allow for section ordering using some list field (not sure about
section nesting though)
As the chosen approach is slicing a section down to being a tiddler, that
means that supporting capabilities are somewhat desireable that help a user
to aggregate the now scattered contents, or display such now remote or
"hidden contents" (data, fields) in a somewhat editable / templatable
viewmode.
Tobias.
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Tobias Beer
2014-11-13 09:18:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jeremy,
Post by Jeremy Ruston
I'm not sure that I fully understand your specific proposals, but I
certainly agree that the core should have more features to help people
split and aggregate tiddlers.
<javascript:>
Indeed. And, yes, my feedback wasn't an overly specific proposal. :-)

For example, one important usecase in TWc would have been the ability to
script something like: list all "Summary" sections of tiddlers tagged X.

Any suggestions on how to model something like that in TW5?

Best wishes, Tobias.
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Tobias Beer
2014-11-13 10:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Ok, although I'd prefer the summary to be visible for each tiddler,
Stephan's toc <http://tw5magick.tiddlyspot.com> does the basic trick to
gather summaries from (hidden) fields.

Best wishes, Tobias.
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PMario
2014-11-13 10:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tobias Beer
Ok, although I'd prefer the summary to be visible for each tiddler,
Stephan's toc <http://tw5magick.tiddlyspot.com> does the basic trick to
gather summaries from (hidden) fields.
That's the common way at the moment. The core and tw5.com uses this
mechanism a lot.

Since fields are 1st class citicens in TW5, the attribute "hidden" imo
isn't true anymore.
-m
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Tobias Beer
2014-11-13 11:30:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by PMario
Since fields are 1st class citicens in TW5, the attribute "hidden" imo
isn't true anymore.
I see what you mean and I guess there sure are ways to expose field
contents in the tiddler body when being viewed, e.g...

{{!!fieldname}}

...or conditionally display such via some sort of ViewTemplate
customization using the reveal widget, I presume.

Would be nice to see an example of how one could conditionally generate a
summary section at the top of all tiddlers tagged X, so that one doesn't
have to click twice, skim the fields until one finds there to be a summary
section.

Best wishes, Tobias.
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Jeremy Ruston
2014-11-13 11:39:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tobias Beer
Would be nice to see an example of how one could conditionally generate a
summary section at the top of all tiddlers tagged X

Create a tiddler tagged $:tags/ViewTemplate containing:

<$list filter="[all[current]tag[X]]">
<$transclude field="summary" mode="block"/>
</$list>

Create a field "list-after" with the value "$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate/tags"
to make the summary segment appear immediately after the tags.

Best wishes

Jeremy
Post by Tobias Beer
Since fields are 1st class citicens in TW5, the attribute "hidden" imo
Post by PMario
isn't true anymore.
I see what you mean and I guess there sure are ways to expose field
contents in the tiddler body when being viewed, e.g...
{{!!fieldname}}
...or conditionally display such via some sort of ViewTemplate
customization using the reveal widget, I presume.
Would be nice to see an example of how one could conditionally generate a
summary section at the top of all tiddlers tagged X, so that one doesn't
have to click twice, skim the fields until one finds there to be a summary
section.
Best wishes, Tobias.
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Tobias Beer
2014-11-13 13:19:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jeremy,

Thanks, sounds all plausible. However, it doesn't seem to work. Care to
take a look?

http://bit.ly/1ufLV1P

Best wishes, Tobias.
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Jeremy Ruston
2014-11-13 14:30:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tobias

Thanks, sounds all plausible. However, it doesn't seem to work. Care to
Post by Tobias Beer
take a look?
Sorry, my typo: the tag is "$:/tags/ViewTemplate", not
"$:tags/ViewTemplate".

Best wishes

Jeremy.
Post by Tobias Beer
http://bit.ly/1ufLV1P
Best wishes, Tobias.
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Sylvain Naudin
2014-11-13 15:57:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Sorry, my typo: the tag is "$:/tags/ViewTemplate", not
"$:tags/ViewTemplate".
I've test quickly on tb5 file and I see his text right above :)
Nice use of case.

Sylvain
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Jeremy Ruston
2014-11-13 10:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tobias Beer
For example, one important usecase in TWc would have been the ability to
script something like: list all "Summary" sections of tiddlers tagged X.

There's no support for sections in TW5. You could use a summary field like
this:

<$list filter="[tag[X]sort[title]]">
<$transclude field="summary"/>
</$list>

Best wishes

Jeremy.
Post by Tobias Beer
Hi Jeremy,
Post by Jeremy Ruston
I'm not sure that I fully understand your specific proposals, but I
certainly agree that the core should have more features to help people
split and aggregate tiddlers.
Indeed. And, yes, my feedback wasn't an overly specific proposal. :-)
For example, one important usecase in TWc would have been the ability to
script something like: list all "Summary" sections of tiddlers tagged X.
Any suggestions on how to model something like that in TW5?
Best wishes, Tobias.
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