Discussion:
[tw5] Presenting: SetUp - a guide to set up a great TW system
(too old to reply)
Mat
2018-05-26 17:35:02 UTC
Permalink
So, you want your TW to...

- function well on your *phone*?
- *auto-sync* with your many devices?
- work as a *shared* family wiki with to-do lists, reference matter and
all?
- ...or even as a corporate system, with *simultaneous editing*?
- ...and automatic *backups*?
- be totally off-the-grid on a *RasPi* server?
- or you want tools to *manage *all those TWs of yours?

Well, maybe it's possible....

The ol' TWaddler proudly presents...

SetUp <http://setup.tiddlyspot.com/>

- a guide to help you navigate to the TW system you want

This was previously named "BackEnd" but SetUp is more appropriate given
that it concerns TW-specific: Savers, Servers, Services and Managers

As you can see on that site, if you experiment a little and tick some
check-boxes, a lot of info is missing. You may disagree or want to add or
to remove either of...

- SetUps
- criteria (i.e the "features" listed that a user may look at to decide
what suits him)
- options for the criteria
- or even the categorization into "savers, servers, services and
managers"


Well, I need help with this information. I barely know what a server is...
but I do know how to copy-paste text so if you guys provide the info, I do
the foot work.

The point is to help anyone... no, I mean *everyone*!.. to get the most out
of TW. It really concerns all of us, so please do a good deed and help out.
The TiddlyGods will reward you.

<:-)
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-26 17:55:34 UTC
Permalink
Mat

2 quick comments ... purely aesthetic ...

1 -- Of firefox & chrome for me on Windows I get this ...



What is the character you want on those boxes? Another Unicode might work
better?


Minor thing the overlay of the two menus--but could cause unintended events
:-)

I'll comment about substance once I looked properly.

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Mat
So, you want your TW to...
- function well on your *phone*?
- *auto-sync* with your many devices?
- work as a *shared* family wiki with to-do lists, reference matter
and all?
- ...or even as a corporate system, with *simultaneous editing*?
- ...and automatic *backups*?
- be totally off-the-grid on a *RasPi* server?
- or you want tools to *manage *all those TWs of yours?
Well, maybe it's possible....
The ol' TWaddler proudly presents...
SetUp <http://setup.tiddlyspot.com/>
- a guide to help you navigate to the TW system you want
This was previously named "BackEnd" but SetUp is more appropriate given
that it concerns TW-specific: Savers, Servers, Services and Managers
As you can see on that site, if you experiment a little and tick some
check-boxes, a lot of info is missing. You may disagree or want to add or
to remove either of...
- SetUps
- criteria (i.e the "features" listed that a user may look at to
decide what suits him)
- options for the criteria
- or even the categorization into "savers, servers, services and
managers"
Well, I need help with this information. I barely know what a server is...
but I do know how to copy-paste text so if you guys provide the info, I do
the foot work.
The point is to help anyone... no, I mean *everyone*!.. to get the most
out of TW. It really concerns all of us, so please do a good deed and help
out. The TiddlyGods will reward you.
<:-)
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Mat
2018-05-26 18:07:04 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Josiah

I've changed the arrows (they were nice and visible, now instead slim
barely visible but should at least work)

The other thing up in the right corner is kind of not needed by the
visitors so I'm thinking I can leave it like that... at least for now :-)

Thanks

<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-26 18:09:28 UTC
Permalink
When I click on "dependencies" and click "No", nothing changes. Shouldn't
only "basic TW file" be showing up on the list?

Thanks!
-- Mark

On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 10:55:34 AM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
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Mat
2018-05-26 20:27:31 UTC
Permalink
Mark

thanks for input and sorry for confusions ;-)

I hope the upper left "Click there / and here" is now clear. The images
were supposed to be arrows pointing to the links. I changed the text now as
well.

The idea is that only the first "saver/server/service/manager" checking -
the "type" filtering - is a real disqualifier from being seen. Thereafter,
the setups remain in the matrix for easy comparison.

A green mark indicates that a setup matches a requirement OR, more
typically that the user didn't set a requirement (...which means it is
fulfilled)
A yellow mark indicates that a requirement is partially fulfilled (and that
the user has set multiple requirements for the criteria)
A red mark indicates that no requirement in a criteria is fulfilled.

Writing this makes me realize you're right; it is definitely not as obvious
as I felt it was. Good you're pointing it out.

<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-26 21:03:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mat,

Are the 3 categories (green, yellow, red) explained? I would put them right
at the top of the chart.

When I check "savers" and then look for offline savers, nothing is checked.
Yet almost all the mentioned savers work offline (except maybe TWITS and
TiddlyDrive).

Also, AndTidWiki has "Chrome" in the "browser" column. But AndTidWiki is
it's own browser and doesn't depend on FF or Chrome.

Any of the items with checkmarks act as links when you hover over them, but
nothing happens when you click on them. Are they supposed to go somewhere?

Thanks!
-- Mark
Post by Mat
Mark
thanks for input and sorry for confusions ;-)
I hope the upper left "Click there / and here" is now clear. The images
were supposed to be arrows pointing to the links. I changed the text now as
well.
The idea is that only the first "saver/server/service/manager" checking -
the "type" filtering - is a real disqualifier from being seen. Thereafter,
the setups remain in the matrix for easy comparison.
A green mark indicates that a setup matches a requirement OR, more
typically that the user didn't set a requirement (...which means it is
fulfilled)
A yellow mark indicates that a requirement is partially fulfilled (and
that the user has set multiple requirements for the criteria)
A red mark indicates that no requirement in a criteria is fulfilled.
Writing this makes me realize you're right; it is definitely not as
obvious as I felt it was. Good you're pointing it out.
<:-)
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Mat
2018-05-27 12:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Are the 3 categories (green, yellow, red) explained? I would put them
right at the top of the chart.
Added.

When I check "savers" and then look for offline savers, nothing is checked.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Yet almost all the mentioned savers work offline (except maybe TWITS and
TiddlyDrive).
Added info.

Also, AndTidWiki has "Chrome" in the "browser" column. But AndTidWiki is
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
it's own browser and doesn't depend on FF or Chrome.
Corrected.

Any of the items with checkmarks act as links when you hover over them, but
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
nothing happens when you click on them. Are they supposed to go somewhere?
If you mean the cells in the matrix, where the green/yellow/red appears,
then this is now corrected. (In the admin version, they are, in deed,
buttons)


Thanks Mark, good input. Please help fill in more if you can.

<:-)
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Mat
2018-05-27 12:18:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Are the 3 categories (green, yellow, red) explained? I would put them
right at the top of the chart.
Added.

When I check "savers" and then look for offline savers, nothing is checked.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Yet almost all the mentioned savers work offline (except maybe TWITS and
TiddlyDrive).
Added info.

Also, AndTidWiki has "Chrome" in the "browser" column. But AndTidWiki is
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
it's own browser and doesn't depend on FF or Chrome.
Corrected.

Any of the items with checkmarks act as links when you hover over them, but
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
nothing happens when you click on them. Are they supposed to go somewhere?
If you mean the cells in the matrix, where the green/yellow/red appears,
then this is now corrected. (In the admin version, they are, in deed,
buttons)


Thanks Mark, good input. Please help fill in more if you can.

<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-26 18:06:18 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mat,

I'm not sure how this is supposed to work. But I've got a bunch of starter
questions.

I clicked on savers.

On Firefox, the icon after "Click there and there" doesn't render (utf
substitute icon). On Chrome, they show up as checkboxes, but I don't know
what they are indicating. What am I supposed to be clicking on?

Why do all the non-full options have a grayed-out "tw" ?

I'm thinking that there is something missing that should be hinting that I
want to click on the various columns. Since they just show up as links, at
first I thought they were just informational. Maybe a line of text
explaining what to do?

Thanks!
-- Mark
Post by Mat
So, you want your TW to...
- function well on your *phone*?
- *auto-sync* with your many devices?
- work as a *shared* family wiki with to-do lists, reference matter
and all?
- ...or even as a corporate system, with *simultaneous editing*?
- ...and automatic *backups*?
- be totally off-the-grid on a *RasPi* server?
- or you want tools to *manage *all those TWs of yours?
Well, maybe it's possible....
The ol' TWaddler proudly presents...
SetUp <http://setup.tiddlyspot.com/>
- a guide to help you navigate to the TW system you want
This was previously named "BackEnd" but SetUp is more appropriate given
that it concerns TW-specific: Savers, Servers, Services and Managers
As you can see on that site, if you experiment a little and tick some
check-boxes, a lot of info is missing. You may disagree or want to add or
to remove either of...
- SetUps
- criteria (i.e the "features" listed that a user may look at to
decide what suits him)
- options for the criteria
- or even the categorization into "savers, servers, services and
managers"
Well, I need help with this information. I barely know what a server is...
but I do know how to copy-paste text so if you guys provide the info, I do
the foot work.
The point is to help anyone... no, I mean *everyone*!.. to get the most
out of TW. It really concerns all of us, so please do a good deed and help
out. The TiddlyGods will reward you.
<:-)
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Mohammad
2018-05-26 18:10:14 UTC
Permalink
Great efforts Mat!

Thank you
Post by Mat
So, you want your TW to...
- function well on your *phone*?
- *auto-sync* with your many devices?
- work as a *shared* family wiki with to-do lists, reference matter
and all?
- ...or even as a corporate system, with *simultaneous editing*?
- ...and automatic *backups*?
- be totally off-the-grid on a *RasPi* server?
- or you want tools to *manage *all those TWs of yours?
Well, maybe it's possible....
The ol' TWaddler proudly presents...
SetUp <http://setup.tiddlyspot.com/>
- a guide to help you navigate to the TW system you want
This was previously named "BackEnd" but SetUp is more appropriate given
that it concerns TW-specific: Savers, Servers, Services and Managers
As you can see on that site, if you experiment a little and tick some
check-boxes, a lot of info is missing. You may disagree or want to add or
to remove either of...
- SetUps
- criteria (i.e the "features" listed that a user may look at to
decide what suits him)
- options for the criteria
- or even the categorization into "savers, servers, services and
managers"
Well, I need help with this information. I barely know what a server is...
but I do know how to copy-paste text so if you guys provide the info, I do
the foot work.
The point is to help anyone... no, I mean *everyone*!.. to get the most
out of TW. It really concerns all of us, so please do a good deed and help
out. The TiddlyGods will reward you.
<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-26 18:22:28 UTC
Permalink
"follwing" sb "following"

On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 10:35:02 AM UTC-7, Mat wrote:
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-26 21:01:46 UTC
Permalink
I went through the table.

Its a seriously difficult filtering job.

TBH I'm not sure the "red crosses" add anything. Green ticks would be the
main selection guide for a user? The non-matches I do not think need to be
explicit?

Also sometimes you get a Green tick with the word "No" below it. I got a
bit confused with those.

I think it will improve when you get more data.

You list Android as a browser and an OS. Its principally an OS I think.
There are Android Apps for TW, perhaps that is what you meant?

Anyway
I think its important what you doing. Don't want to come over negative.
Post by Mat
So, you want your TW to...
- function well on your *phone*?
- *auto-sync* with your many devices?
- work as a *shared* family wiki with to-do lists, reference matter
and all?
- ...or even as a corporate system, with *simultaneous editing*?
- ...and automatic *backups*?
- be totally off-the-grid on a *RasPi* server?
- or you want tools to *manage *all those TWs of yours?
Well, maybe it's possible....
The ol' TWaddler proudly presents...
SetUp <http://setup.tiddlyspot.com/>
- a guide to help you navigate to the TW system you want
This was previously named "BackEnd" but SetUp is more appropriate given
that it concerns TW-specific: Savers, Servers, Services and Managers
As you can see on that site, if you experiment a little and tick some
check-boxes, a lot of info is missing. You may disagree or want to add or
to remove either of...
- SetUps
- criteria (i.e the "features" listed that a user may look at to
decide what suits him)
- options for the criteria
- or even the categorization into "savers, servers, services and
managers"
Well, I need help with this information. I barely know what a server is...
but I do know how to copy-paste text so if you guys provide the info, I do
the foot work.
The point is to help anyone... no, I mean *everyone*!.. to get the most
out of TW. It really concerns all of us, so please do a good deed and help
out. The TiddlyGods will reward you.
<:-)
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Mat
2018-05-27 12:15:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I went through the table.
Its a seriously difficult filtering job.
TBH I'm not sure the "red crosses" add anything. Green ticks would be the
main selection guide for a user? The non-matches I do not think need to be
explicit?
I'm considering this but letting it be at the moment.

Also sometimes you get a Green tick with the word "No" below it. I got a
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
bit confused with those.
I added a "SetUp has:" to signify that the SetUp has this value. Hopefully
more clear now.

I think it will improve when you get more data.
No doubt.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
You list Android as a browser and an OS. Its principally an OS I think.
Corrected.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
There are Android Apps for TW, perhaps that is what you meant?
I'm not aware of such. Where?
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Anyway
I think its important what you doing. Don't want to come over negative.
Constructive criticism; bring it on!

<:-)
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-27 12:49:27 UTC
Permalink
TT: There are Android Apps for TW, perhaps that is what you meant?
I'm not aware of such. Where?
AndTidWiki is an App in Google Store:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.mgsimon.android.andtidwiki&hl=en

NoteSelf has an Android App version in Beta at:
https://github.com/NoteSelf/android-app/releases
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Mat
2018-05-27 13:00:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.mgsimon.android.andtidwiki&hl=en
Hm, Mark just said it is a browser in itself. Are there two variants of it?


<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.mgsimon.android.andtidwiki&hl=en>NoteSelf
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
https://github.com/NoteSelf/android-app/releases
I should ask about the distinctions on the NoteSelf board
<https://forum.noteself.org>.

Thanks!

<:-)
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Jed Carty
2018-05-26 22:51:43 UTC
Permalink
I am not sure how to answer some of the questions about Bob here, but this
is my attempt:

it is a plugin that lets you save tiddlers, so it could be a saver, it
serves the wikis so it may be a server (but it isn't a separate piece of
software, so I don't know), and it lets you have multiple wikis so it may
be a manager but I am not certain what the 'as objects' part means.

Autobackup: no (maybe later)
Browser: any standard
data-storage-location: it is a server, but the device you are using it on
could be the server so I am not sure what to say about that.
dependencies: nodejs for the plugin version, none for the single executable
version
encryption: no (same as the normal nodejs version, possibly coming later)
file or folder: I am not sure what this means, you have switchable so lets
go with that
format: I don't know what this means
mobile first: no
multi-user: yes
os: any for the plugin, windows osx and linux for the single executable
portable: no for the plugin (same as normal nodejs), yes for the single
executable
versioning: no
works offline: yes

Bob may need two entries, one for the node plugin version and one for the
single executable version.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-26 23:17:39 UTC
Permalink
Jed: file or folder: I am not sure what this means, you have switchable so
lets go with that
I think Mat means whether the system runs TW is for single html wiki
(file) or Tid based (folder) or both. For instance TiddlyDesktop is both.
Bob I think is just folder (even though you can generate the html one-files
from it)?
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Mat
2018-05-27 12:52:55 UTC
Permalink
Jed Carty wrote:

First, yes, makes sense to differentiate between node plugin version and
single executable version so I did this now. but note I'm not sure I got
the data 100% correct and i still have some editing to do with it. (there's
also some CSS problem so the popups don't cut the text properly when you
click the SetUp title)

Please note that the criteria you have difficulty with are probably because
they are poor guesses to begin with, from my side.

Here are some questions based on what you write here.


it is a plugin that lets you save tiddlers, so it could be a saver, it
Post by Jed Carty
serves the wikis so it may be a server (but it isn't a separate piece of
software, so I don't know), and it lets you have multiple wikis so it may
be a manager but I am not certain what the 'as objects' part means.
The idea is that a user should find what is important. If it is a server,
I'm guessing that it is simply assumed that one can also save to it so I
would just call it a server.

I've removed the "as objects" part in the descriptions for managers.


Autobackup: no (maybe later)
(I've set it to "no" because to different degrees all solutions can have
"maybe later" ;-)
Post by Jed Carty
data-storage-location: it is a server, but the device you are using it on
could be the server so I am not sure what to say about that.
I changed options to include "Server location" and made a note that this
can mean "on your local device".
Post by Jed Carty
dependencies: nodejs for the plugin version, none for the single
executable version
I've redefined "dependencies" to mean dependency on something outside of
the actual SetUp. The SetUp obviously depends on itself to function but it
may also require some other supporting software or service to funciton. I
have rephrased the description for dependencies but will rephrase it again
to say basically what I just wrote here.

file or folder: I am not sure what this means, you have switchable so lets
Post by Jed Carty
go with that
Maybe single-file or multi-file would make more sense... The idea is that
the single file nature of standard TW has been highlighted as a key
feature. How can I capture this aspect and what other aspects stand in
contrast to this one?
Post by Jed Carty
format: I don't know what this means
It may be a poorly chosen term and I welcome any better one. What I mean,
which can be seen when clicking that criteria, is how the SetUp solution is
"packaged" or manifested, i.e as a html-file, a browser add-on, an app etc.
I know I feel differently about, say, a browser add-on compared to a
separate app/program. Any better term?

os: any for the plugin, windows osx and linux for the single executable
Is OSX same thing as MacOS?


<:-)
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-27 13:08:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mat
The idea is that a user should find what is important. If it is a server,
I'm guessing that it is simply assumed that one can also save to it so I
would just call it a server.
This is a fascinating discussion. Because it illustrates the endless issue
of describing/typifying TW for diffrent types of uses/user.

Take Bob as an example. I know, intellectually, it is a "server". But to me
its a self-contained application that does stuff. I don't need to bother
about whether its a server or not. All I need to know is how to do things
in it.

I guess, when I hear "server", I think more of some special thing I need to
spend hours (days) understanding and implementing. That I'd need to be tech
savvy about and know how to type directly into a console.

OF COURSE my thinking is a cliche. But a significant one of an "end-user",
I think.

Just saying
Josiah
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Mat
2018-05-27 14:12:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I guess, when I hear "server", I think more of some special thing I need
to spend hours (days) understanding and implementing. That I'd need to be
tech savvy about and know how to type directly into a console.
How about: configure proxy settings, CORS, mysterious ip-addresses that one
is supposed to somehow know and write in some field with weird dots, config
files, sys admin rights, a few registry tweaks, some obvious BIOS settings
and "whaddyamean you don't know Linux"?

That's enough for anyone to cr*p his pants. (No, not 'crop')

A better thing than this "matrix" is probably some Wizard that holds your
hand and asks questions with a minimum amount of lingo. Still, I think this
matrix is a necessary step to collect the data and get a general overview
of it all, not least to iterate out what the sensible parameters actually
are. A bit ironic that I am doing this given how my pants looks from just *writing
*those words.

<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-27 16:20:55 UTC
Permalink
I'm not sure why Beaker Browser, AndTidWiki, and Quine are on the "servers"
page. I would put them on "Savers".

AndTidWiki says that it has a dependency "other software". The only
dependency that I know of is the AndTidWiki application itself -- it
doesn't need anything else.

Thanks!
-- Mark
Post by Mat
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I guess, when I hear "server", I think more of some special thing I need
to spend hours (days) understanding and implementing. That I'd need to be
tech savvy about and know how to type directly into a console.
How about: configure proxy settings, CORS, mysterious ip-addresses that
one is supposed to somehow know and write in some field with weird dots,
config files, sys admin rights, a few registry tweaks, some obvious BIOS
settings and "whaddyamean you don't know Linux"?
That's enough for anyone to cr*p his pants. (No, not 'crop')
A better thing than this "matrix" is probably some Wizard that holds your
hand and asks questions with a minimum amount of lingo. Still, I think this
matrix is a necessary step to collect the data and get a general overview
of it all, not least to iterate out what the sensible parameters actually
are. A bit ironic that I am doing this given how my pants looks from just *writing
*those words.
<:-)
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Mat
2018-05-27 16:41:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I'm not sure why Beaker Browser, AndTidWiki, and Quine are on the
"servers" page. I would put them on "Savers".
AndTidWiki says that it has a dependency "other software". The only
dependency that I know of is the AndTidWiki application itself -- it
doesn't need anything else.
Mark; appreciated and corrected.

<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-27 19:15:04 UTC
Permalink
I think "basic tw on node.js" should be the same as "Bob" except multi-user
is "no".

Possibly for both OS should be "any OS with node.js" since some people have
gotten node.js to work on termux.

Maybe "format" should include "executable" for setups like "Bob single
user"?

The currently empty fields of Tiddly server should be just like Bob
multi-user except not "multi-user". Also, ts has backup option for single
tw file backups.

All the links in the right column go to the "Getting Started" page where
the user has to start over again. Perhaps you could link to the permalink
for the topic rather than going through a detour.? Also on a small device,
the result of hitting the blue links in "Getting Started" is almost
invisible to a user, appearing down below out of sight.


Thanks!
Mark
Post by Mat
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I'm not sure why Beaker Browser, AndTidWiki, and Quine are on the
"servers" page. I would put them on "Savers".
AndTidWiki says that it has a dependency "other software". The only
dependency that I know of is the AndTidWiki application itself -- it
doesn't need anything else.
Mark; appreciated and corrected.
<:-)
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Mat
2018-05-27 20:48:32 UTC
Permalink
Mark, much appreciated again. I've implemented some of your points but will
have to do the rest in the next few days.

<:-)
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Mat
2018-05-28 09:13:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I think "basic tw on node.js" should be the same as "Bob" except
multi-user is "no".
Done.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Possibly for both OS should be "any OS with node.js" since some people
have gotten node.js to work on termux.
Done. Any others that should fall into this criteria as well?
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Maybe "format" should include "executable" for setups like "Bob single
user"?
I have a criteria called "App". Does this cover it or is an app something
else?

The currently empty fields of Tiddly server should be just like Bob
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
multi-user except not "multi-user". Also, ts has backup option for single
tw file backups.
So no mistake; "Bob on Node" or "Bob single exec."?

All the links in the right column go to the "Getting Started" page where
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
the user has to start over again. Perhaps you could link to the permalink
for the topic rather than going through a detour.? Also on a small device,
the result of hitting the blue links in "Getting Started" is almost
invisible to a user, appearing down below out of sight.
OK, I removed the links to GettingStarted.

Again, thank you Mark. Much appreciated.

<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-28 13:24:37 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mat,
Post by Mat
Done. Any others that should fall into this criteria as well?
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Maybe "format" should include "executable" for setups like "Bob single
user"?
I have a criteria called "App". Does this cover it or is an app something
else?
Twenty years ago there would have been no ambiguity. I've noticed that
these days an "App" almost always refers to a small application that runs
on a smart phone or tablet. It's more of a "What is the first thing you
think of" kind of question.
Post by Mat
The currently empty fields of Tiddly server should be just like Bob
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
multi-user except not "multi-user". Also, ts has backup option for single
tw file backups.
So no mistake; "Bob on Node" or "Bob single exec."?
"Bob on Node", I think.

"File Backups" would definitely be in the "saver" category.

Thanks!
Mark
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-28 13:18:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mat,

You probably already know this, but you have 2 copies of "basic tw on
node.js" on the servers filter.

AndTidwiki:

autobackup: no
data-storage: local-device
enc: Native-iTw-enc.
format: html-file
(not "browser in itself" which s.b. for the "browser" column)
mlti-user: no
OS: Android
portable: no
versioning: no

I don't use iOS, but I believe Quine is the equivalent of AndTidWiki on
that platform. So everything would be the same except OS.

Thanks!
Mark
Post by Mat
So, you want your TW to...
- function well on your *phone*?
- *auto-sync* with your many devices?
- work as a *shared* family wiki with to-do lists, reference matter
and all?
- ...or even as a corporate system, with *simultaneous editing*?
- ...and automatic *backups*?
- be totally off-the-grid on a *RasPi* server?
- or you want tools to *manage *all those TWs of yours?
Well, maybe it's possible....
The ol' TWaddler proudly presents...
SetUp <http://setup.tiddlyspot.com/>
- a guide to help you navigate to the TW system you want
This was previously named "BackEnd" but SetUp is more appropriate given
that it concerns TW-specific: Savers, Servers, Services and Managers
As you can see on that site, if you experiment a little and tick some
check-boxes, a lot of info is missing. You may disagree or want to add or
to remove either of...
- SetUps
- criteria (i.e the "features" listed that a user may look at to
decide what suits him)
- options for the criteria
- or even the categorization into "savers, servers, services and
managers"
Well, I need help with this information. I barely know what a server is...
but I do know how to copy-paste text so if you guys provide the info, I do
the foot work.
The point is to help anyone... no, I mean *everyone*!.. to get the most
out of TW. It really concerns all of us, so please do a good deed and help
out. The TiddlyGods will reward you.
<:-)
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Mat
2018-05-28 13:59:03 UTC
Permalink
Excellent. I've added the AndTidWiki stuff and Quine

You probably already know this, but you have 2 copies of "basic tw on
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
node.js" on the servers filter.
I'm a bit uncertain on this: the double copies was from marking "basic TW
on Node.js" as a server, so it turned up double because both the "basic TW
on node.js" och "basic TW single file" are permanently included for
comparison. Maybe that, i.e to have those two permanently on top, is not a
good idea? But if I classify "TW on node" as a server, what should I then
classify "basic TW singel file" as?

<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-28 15:28:53 UTC
Permalink
I'm always for consistency. Except when I'm not ;-)

IMHO ...

basic TW on node.js is a server. (it always needs the user to start a
server)

basic TW single file is a saver. (it always saves a local file)

Thanks!
Mark
Post by Mat
Excellent. I've added the AndTidWiki stuff and Quine
You probably already know this, but you have 2 copies of "basic tw on
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
node.js" on the servers filter.
I'm a bit uncertain on this: the double copies was from marking "basic TW
on Node.js" as a server, so it turned up double because both the "basic TW
on node.js" och "basic TW single file" are permanently included for
comparison. Maybe that, i.e to have those two permanently on top, is not a
good idea? But if I classify "TW on node" as a server, what should I then
classify "basic TW singel file" as?
<:-)
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-28 16:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I'm always for consistency. Except when I'm not ;-)
basic TW on node.js is a server. (it always needs the user to start a
server)
basic TW single file is a saver. (it always saves a local file)
I'd be interested how you think about TiddlyDesktop.

It supports both "single files" and "folders." In "folder mode" its running
an internal server. But do we need to know that? What does it add knowing
that in case of TD?

This has brought up the issue of dependencies v. "self-contained". For
instance, do I really need to know Bob is a server? Not that I shouldn't,
but what does that knowledge add to practical function? My interest in Bob
is what it does, not how its constituted. Like TiddlyDesktop, it is
self-contained. Once an "app" is self contained, who cares, so long as it
does the job.

I think its a bit like cars. I'm really not interested whether its an 85
cylinder thing. What does it DO? :-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-28 17:14:40 UTC
Permalink
I would consider TD a saver, even though it uses an internal server because
you never see the effects of using the server. The server and the gui have
been combined into one application. Also, and I'm sure someone will correct
me if I'm wrong, I don't think you can use it anywhere on your local
network. I guess if it's on localhost it might be possible, but that's not
the way it's usually used.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that when you run Bob you *must*
view it in a browser. So you have 2 things going. The user has to start the
server, and the user has to open a browser window. And, the user can, if
they want, open the server up to the local router. So Bob is a server. If
you were explaining Bob to someone, you would have to point out this
distinction -- it wouldn't be invisible.

About cars, I remember that the goal of auto design at one time was to
reduce the number of moving parts. Then, in a marketing ploy, manufacturers
started touting the number of valves cars had. It was never clear to me why
it should be a good thing for a car to have lots of valves, but apparently
someone had decided that more was better.

-- Mark
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I'm always for consistency. Except when I'm not ;-)
basic TW on node.js is a server. (it always needs the user to start a
server)
basic TW single file is a saver. (it always saves a local file)
I'd be interested how you think about TiddlyDesktop.
It supports both "single files" and "folders." In "folder mode" its
running an internal server. But do we need to know that? What does it add
knowing that in case of TD?
This has brought up the issue of dependencies v. "self-contained". For
instance, do I really need to know Bob is a server? Not that I shouldn't,
but what does that knowledge add to practical function? My interest in Bob
is what it does, not how its constituted. Like TiddlyDesktop, it is
self-contained. Once an "app" is self contained, who cares, so long as it
does the job.
I think its a bit like cars. I'm really not interested whether its an 85
cylinder thing. What does it DO? :-)
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-28 17:47:58 UTC
Permalink
Mark S.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that when you run Bob you *must*
view it in a browser.
Right you MUST.

But its a bit of non-sequiter in the end. ALL methods require a browser to
see render. Some have it built in. TD uses the Chrome engine.

I guess if you put TD on a machine that didn't have a browser it would be
exciting just for that.

What excites me about TD & Bob is what they ADD functionally. TD Backstage
is not much explored but exciting. Bob's Automation is special. The fact
they both need one form of Browser of another seems secondary?

Not that I have answers. It seems molto difficile to "typify" TW in a way
that could form a "selling point."
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-28 18:09:20 UTC
Permalink
One big difference is, that with a server you could browse from another
browser on the same network (even if it is inadvisable in some cases).

You might consider the given categories to be arbitrary, but that's
probably essential in order to assert some order on the phalanx of options.

-- Mark
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Mark S.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that when you run Bob you *must*
view it in a browser.
Right you MUST.
But its a bit of non-sequiter in the end. ALL methods require a browser to
see render. Some have it built in. TD uses the Chrome engine.
I guess if you put TD on a machine that didn't have a browser it would be
exciting just for that.
What excites me about TD & Bob is what they ADD functionally. TD Backstage
is not much explored but exciting. Bob's Automation is special. The fact
they both need one form of Browser of another seems secondary?
Not that I have answers. It seems molto difficile to "typify" TW in a way
that could form a "selling point."
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Mat
2018-05-28 18:57:00 UTC
Permalink
[TiddlyDesktop] both "single files" and "folders." In "folder mode" its
running an internal server. But do we need to know that? What does it add
knowing that in case of TD?
But that would be the point to not classify it as a "Server" but only as a
"Manager".
[...] do I really need to know Bob is a server? Not that I shouldn't, but
what does that knowledge add to practical function? My interest in Bob is
what it does, not how its constituted. [...]
So, what reusable labels would you put on the things Bob does? Like what
you allude to, I'm interested in finding labels that bring value to users.*
They should be able to say "I want X. Which ones have that?"*

<:-)
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-28 20:05:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mat
So, what reusable labels would you put on the things Bob does? Like what
you allude to, I'm interested in finding labels that bring value to users.*
They should be able to say "I want X. Which ones have that?"*
Bob is radical. It will run wikis. It will save wikis. So far, so normal.
But its greatest unique feature is AUTOMATION.

With Bob you can run "scripts" that interface with the OS. What this means
is you can control virtually anything on the computer from Bob. For
instance, I use Bob already to (1) save TW tid sets to single TW; (2)
launch Windows programs; (3) run external programs that gather data for Bob
Wikis. Its been easy.

Bob is a good example of "What is the Added Value of this?" Bob's is
"Automation", without doubt. Its unique.

TiddlyDesktop's Added Value is: Smart visuality, great menus, sense its a
"FULL PROGRAM". Excellent for users who need something that just runs like
a normal desktop program.

These Added Value aspects I suspect are quite important on choice.

Best wishes
Josiah
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Lost Admin
2018-05-28 17:42:08 UTC
Permalink
Filling in a few more blanks (may have already been done and not on setup
yet):

WebDAV

*dependencies* : Apache or IIS (tested); possibly also supported on Nginx
*format* : html
*OS* : Any (Apache) or windows (IIS)
*Portable* : No (or maybe with Apache portableapps)

PHP (store.php)

*Dependencies* : Web server & PHP (confirmed on Apache 2.4 with php 5.6)
*Format* : html
*Portable* : No (or maybe with Apache portableapps)

NoteSelf

*Encryption* : no
*file-or-folder* : neither
*format* : json
*Portable* : no (I'm open to being corrected but I didn't find a
portableapps option)
Post by Mat
So, you want your TW to...
- function well on your *phone*?
- *auto-sync* with your many devices?
- work as a *shared* family wiki with to-do lists, reference matter
and all?
- ...or even as a corporate system, with *simultaneous editing*?
- ...and automatic *backups*?
- be totally off-the-grid on a *RasPi* server?
- or you want tools to *manage *all those TWs of yours?
Well, maybe it's possible....
The ol' TWaddler proudly presents...
SetUp <http://setup.tiddlyspot.com/>
- a guide to help you navigate to the TW system you want
This was previously named "BackEnd" but SetUp is more appropriate given
that it concerns TW-specific: Savers, Servers, Services and Managers
As you can see on that site, if you experiment a little and tick some
check-boxes, a lot of info is missing. You may disagree or want to add or
to remove either of...
- SetUps
- criteria (i.e the "features" listed that a user may look at to
decide what suits him)
- options for the criteria
- or even the categorization into "savers, servers, services and
managers"
Well, I need help with this information. I barely know what a server is...
but I do know how to copy-paste text so if you guys provide the info, I do
the foot work.
The point is to help anyone... no, I mean *everyone*!.. to get the most
out of TW. It really concerns all of us, so please do a good deed and help
out. The TiddlyGods will reward you.
<:-)
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-28 18:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Filling in a few more blanks ...
Good stuff. Small comment ...
NoteSelf
*Encryption* : no
*file-or-folder* : neither
*format* : json
*Portable* : no (I'm open to being corrected but I didn't find a
portableapps option)
Storage: In-browser database AND (optional) synced external database
(either local or in cloud).

Portable: YES, in the sense that you can run it from any browser on any
device. Its not dependent on location (paths). NO, in the sense its not a
Portable app per se. I think the right answer is likely: "N/A".

Variants: It also comes in a Android App form (Beta).
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-28 18:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lost Admin
*Portable* : no (I'm open to being corrected but I didn't find a
portableapps option)
Portable: YES, in the sense that you can run it from any browser on any
device. Its not dependent on location (paths). NO, in the sense its not a
Portable app per se. I think the right answer is likely: "N/A".
It's not portable in the sense that Mat's defined it here nor in the sense
that someone's created an actual "setup" to do that. If you start moving
into hypotheticals, rather than actuals, the list would be endless.

-- Mark
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-28 18:17:04 UTC
Permalink
I agree. I think its "N/A" on "Portability".

However, with deference to Mat, still the point remains that NoteSelf is an
interesting option for users who want a solution that works over many
different types of devices from one source (a synched cloud based database).
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Post by Lost Admin
*Portable* : no (I'm open to being corrected but I didn't find a
portableapps option)
Portable: YES, in the sense that you can run it from any browser on any
device. Its not dependent on location (paths). NO, in the sense its not a
Portable app per se. I think the right answer is likely: "N/A".
It's not portable in the sense that Mat's defined it here nor in the sense
that someone's created an actual "setup" to do that. If you start moving
into hypotheticals, rather than actuals, the list would be endless.
-- Mark
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Lost Admin
2018-05-28 18:27:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I agree. I think its "N/A" on "Portability".
However, with deference to Mat, still the point remains that NoteSelf is
an interesting option for users who want a solution that works over many
different types of devices from one source (a synched cloud based database).
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Post by Lost Admin
*Portable* : no (I'm open to being corrected but I didn't find a
portableapps option)
Portable: YES, in the sense that you can run it from any browser on any
device. Its not dependent on location (paths). NO, in the sense its not a
Portable app per se. I think the right answer is likely: "N/A".
It's not portable in the sense that Mat's defined it here nor in the
sense that someone's created an actual "setup" to do that. If you start
moving into hypotheticals, rather than actuals, the list would be endless.
-- Mark
The strength I find in NoteSelf is that on large TiddlyWiki files it loads
and saves a lot faster (as only changes and tiddlers actually being
displayed are synced to the server).

The biggest weakness I see is the set-up. It probably took me about 16
hours of effort (over about 3 weeks) to do my first functional setup of
CouchDB. But, I was doing that by digging through the CouchDB documentation
and various tutorials on how to setup CouchDB (there wasn't anything
specific for NoteSelf at the time (I'm fixing that). My most recent set-up
took under an hour.
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Lost Admin
2018-05-28 18:28:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lost Admin
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I agree. I think its "N/A" on "Portability".
However, with deference to Mat, still the point remains that NoteSelf is
an interesting option for users who want a solution that works over many
different types of devices from one source (a synched cloud based database).
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Post by Lost Admin
*Portable* : no (I'm open to being corrected but I didn't find a
portableapps option)
Portable: YES, in the sense that you can run it from any browser on any
device. Its not dependent on location (paths). NO, in the sense its not a
Portable app per se. I think the right answer is likely: "N/A".
It's not portable in the sense that Mat's defined it here nor in the
sense that someone's created an actual "setup" to do that. If you start
moving into hypotheticals, rather than actuals, the list would be endless.
-- Mark
The strength I find in NoteSelf is that on large TiddlyWiki files it loads
and saves a lot faster (as only changes and tiddlers actually being
displayed are synced to the server).
The biggest weakness I see is the set-up. It probably took me about 16
hours of effort (over about 3 weeks) to do my first functional setup of
CouchDB. But, I was doing that by digging through the CouchDB documentation
and various tutorials on how to setup CouchDB (there wasn't anything
specific for NoteSelf at the time; I'm fixing that). My most recent set-up
took under an hour.
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Lost Admin
2018-05-28 18:29:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I agree. I think its "N/A" on "Portability".
However, with deference to Mat, still the point remains that NoteSelf is
an interesting option for users who want a solution that works over many
different types of devices from one source (a synched cloud based database).
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Post by Lost Admin
*Portable* : no (I'm open to being corrected but I didn't find a
portableapps option)
Portable: YES, in the sense that you can run it from any browser on
any device. Its not dependent on location (paths). NO, in the sense its not
a Portable app per se. I think the right answer is likely: "N/A".
It's not portable in the sense that Mat's defined it here nor in the
sense that someone's created an actual "setup" to do that. If you start
moving into hypotheticals, rather than actuals, the list would be endless.
-- Mark
The strength I find in NoteSelf is that on large TiddlyWiki files it loads
and saves a lot faster (as only changes and tiddlers actually being
displayed are synced to the server).

The biggest weakness I see is the set-up. It probably took me about 16
hours of effort (over about 3 weeks) to do my first functional setup of
CouchDB. But, I was doing that by digging through the CouchDB documentation
and various tutorials on how to setup CouchDB (there wasn't anything
specific for NoteSelf at the time; I'm fixing that). My most recent set-up
took under an hour.
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Mat
2018-05-28 19:43:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lost Admin
The biggest weakness I see is the set-up. It probably took me about 16
hours of effort (over about 3 weeks) to do my first functional setup of
CouchDB. But, I was doing that by digging through the CouchDB documentation
and various tutorials on how to setup CouchDB (there wasn't anything
specific for NoteSelf at the time (I'm fixing that). My most recent set-up
took under an hour.
Instructions are as critical as the software side and I hope I can link to
instructions from the SetUp site. Please inform me when you've "fixed" it
;-)

<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-28 18:45:46 UTC
Permalink
It's not a question of whether NS is useful or not or should be cherished
and loved by all.

It's a question of whether anyone has created an instance or instructions
(i.e. "setup") to allow it to be used as a portable application. The answer
to that is "no". Hypothetically someone might, but until someone does it's
not portable.

-- Mark
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I agree. I think its "N/A" on "Portability".
However, with deference to Mat, still the point remains that NoteSelf is
an interesting option for users who want a solution that works over many
different types of devices from one source (a synched cloud based database).
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Post by Lost Admin
*Portable* : no (I'm open to being corrected but I didn't find a
portableapps option)
Portable: YES, in the sense that you can run it from any browser on any
device. Its not dependent on location (paths). NO, in the sense its not a
Portable app per se. I think the right answer is likely: "N/A".
It's not portable in the sense that Mat's defined it here nor in the
sense that someone's created an actual "setup" to do that. If you start
moving into hypotheticals, rather than actuals, the list would be endless.
-- Mark
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Mat
2018-05-28 19:40:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
NoteSelf
Storage: In-browser database AND (optional) synced external database
(either local or in cloud).
For storage, I previously added "Server-location In-browser", is that fair?
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Portable: YES, in the sense that you can run it from any browser on any
device. Its not dependent on location (paths). NO, in the sense its not a
Portable app per se. I think the right answer is likely: "N/A".
So... why not Yes then?
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Variants: It also comes in a Android App form (Beta).
Does this have the same criteria as the main NoteSelf? (Other than OS,
presumably)


<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-28 19:47:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mat,
Post by Mat
For storage, I previously added "Server-location In-browser", is that fair?
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Portable: YES, in the sense that you can run it from any browser on any
device. Its not dependent on location (paths). NO, in the sense its not a
Portable app per se. I think the right answer is likely: "N/A".
So... why not Yes then?
IMO ...

It's not portable in the sense you originally defined. ANY server based
solution would be portable in the first sense that TT uses. I would mark it
"no".

-- Mark
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-28 20:29:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mat
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
NoteSelf
Storage: In-browser database AND (optional) synced external database
(either local or in cloud).
For storage, I previously added "Server-location In-browser", is that fair?
Not exactly. But close enough. Basically the wiki is stored in the browser
in a database. "Browser database" and "Synced external database" are a bit
closer though.
Post by Mat
Portable: YES, in the sense that you can run it from any browser on any
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
device. Its not dependent on location (paths). NO, in the sense its not a
Portable app per se. I think the right answer is likely: "N/A".
So... why not Yes then?
Depends if by "portable" you mean an application, an actual program. I
eventually wrote N/A because I think its actually at a different level than
a "program". Its not so much about portable APPLICATIONS as CLOUD
COMPUTING.

Its a tricky one.

Josiah
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Mat
2018-05-28 19:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Lost Admin - thank you for your information! Some questions:

*WebDAV*
Post by Lost Admin
*...*
*OS* : Any (Apache) or windows (IIS)
What does this mean - what's the difference?
I'm limiting the SetUp matrix to include set-ups custom made for TW - OR -
instructions(!) on how to adapt some other "system" to TW. When it comes to
WebDAV, I see @PMario has kindly made instructions for IIS
<https://tiddlywiki.com/#Saving%20via%20WebDAV>. From that tiddler I don't
understand if there are other options for someone who is not very tech
savvy. is there?
Post by Lost Admin
*Portable* : No (or maybe with Apache portableapps)
To qualify as portable it should exist as a self-contained solution by
itself.

(Should I change the category "portable" to instead be "self-contained"?)


*PHP (store.php)*
I've renamed the set-up to now be as you phrase it here, yes?

*Dependencies* : Web server & PHP (confirmed on Apache 2.4 with php 5.6)
I have classed "PHP", or "PHP (store.php), as a server... but "a server" is
rather the requirement for this (right?).


*NoteSelf*
Post by Lost Admin
*format* : json
Hm, that woudl be the "code-format", for tiddlers right, not NoteSelf per
se? By "format" I tried to find a label for:

How is the set-up solution manifested?
Post by Lost Admin
What format is this piece of software in? This
might affect how complicated it is to install/set it up.
*Option values, predefined*
- html-file
- .tid-files
- TW-plugin
- Browsr_add-on
- Browser-in-itself
- App
I would guess NoteSelf is an "App" in this sense, i.e a separate software.
Would you say my lable "format" is poorly chosen? Any better suggestion?
Looking at my list above, I'm wondering if ".tid-files" really is relevant?

...and maybe I *should *include json, i.e use file-format of tiddlers as a
criteria? This may be important if one wants some kind of API integration,
right?

<:-)
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Lost Admin
2018-05-28 19:54:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mat
*WebDAV*
Post by Lost Admin
*...*
*OS* : Any (Apache) or windows (IIS)
What does this mean - what's the difference?
I'm limiting the SetUp matrix to include set-ups custom made for TW - OR -
instructions(!) on how to adapt some other "system" to TW. When it comes to
<https://tiddlywiki.com/#Saving%20via%20WebDAV>. From that tiddler I
don't understand if there are other options for someone who is not very
tech savvy. is there?
The Apache HTTPD server can be installed on pretty much any OS (it is
available on most UNIX and UNIX like OSes, including Linux) but also
available for OSX (Apple) and Windows. I'm working on instructions for
setting it up on FreeBSD (UNIX-like), Debian Linux, and Windows. I already
made basic setup instructions on this forum (now buried and probably lost).

@PMario made his instructions, which I followed to set-up IIS. So really
you can run a webdav server on pretty much any OS with the Apache HTTPD
server and on windows specifically you can also run webdav with IIS.

To make this even more complicated, there is an entire webdav server
written in PHP (called sabre/dav). I haven't tested this but it is pretty
popular. PHP runs on pretty much any OS, so it should work pretty much any
OS. PHP is an interpreted language (like Python or Perl) and needs server
software that supports it. Since Apache (and Nginx, and IIS) support PHP,
you can pretty much run Sabre/dav on anything.

If you are only going with "that we have instructions for", you still have
a bit of a dilema as there is absolutely nothing special about the setup of
WebDAV for Tiddlywiki (you just need a properly set-up WebDAV server). So
instructions (not unique to TiddlyWiki) are out there. But if you want
specific to TiddlyWiki anyway, then IIS for now (and Apache if you can find
my old instructions or wait until I finish the new ones with better
screenshots).

Web servers are complicated. There will probably never be instructions for
the "not very tech savvy". But there will (hopefully) be step-by-step
instructions for the brave and soon-to-be-tech-savvy.
Post by Mat
Post by Lost Admin
*Portable* : No (or maybe with Apache portableapps)
To qualify as portable it should exist as a self-contained solution by
itself.
(Should I change the category "portable" to instead be "self-contained"?)
Honestly, I think this is always going to be debatable. The intent you have
is subtle and simple terms are going to have broader meaning to different
people.
Post by Mat
*PHP (store.php)*
I've renamed the set-up to now be as you phrase it here, yes?
*Dependencies* : Web server & PHP (confirmed on Apache 2.4 with php 5.6)
I have classed "PHP", or "PHP (store.php), as a server... but "a server"
is rather the requirement for this (right?).
Yes, that works.
Post by Mat
*NoteSelf*
Post by Lost Admin
*format* : json
Hm, that woudl be the "code-format", for tiddlers right, not NoteSelf per
How is the set-up solution manifested?
Post by Lost Admin
What format is this piece of software in? This
might affect how complicated it is to install/set it up.
*Option values, predefined*
- html-file
- .tid-files
- TW-plugin
- Browsr_add-on
- Browser-in-itself
- App
I would guess NoteSelf is an "App" in this sense, i.e a separate software.
Would you say my lable "format" is poorly chosen? Any better suggestion?
Looking at my list above, I'm wondering if ".tid-files" really is relevant?
...and maybe I *should *include json, i.e use file-format of tiddlers as
a criteria? This may be important if one wants some kind of API
integration, right?
I'm not 100% sure how you want to express this. NoteSelf is a touch more
complicated than TiddlyWiki in in it's most basic form and yet is also (at
it's core) only a couple of plug-ins to TiddlyWiki. So ... format, the log
explanation:

NoteSelf the very first time you load it, is an HTML file. It is TiddlyWiki
with some plugins.

One of those plugins takes each Tiddler and converts it to JSON (an
in-memory data structure) and stores it in browser storage. The format of
the browser storage varries depending on the browser used but is basically
still JSON. This is PouchDB

So, in the above sense you now have a multi-file stand-alone tiddlywiki.
One file is HTML, the other is in whatever format your browser uses for
local storage. Firefox, for example, uses sqlite files as the on-disk
format (but each tiddler is saved as json within sqlite records).

Now, things get really confusing. We add in CouchDB. The plug-ins that make
NoteSelf include support to sync what is in browser storage to a database
server (specifically one running CouchDB). Internally CouchDB uses the
JSON data structure and so when it saves, it is also JSON. Each tiddler is
a single JSON structure inside a larger JSON structure.

So, your multi-file wiki consists of one HTML file and one or more JSON
data structures stored in files managed by two other programs (your browser
and the CouchDB server). However, the HTML file is pretty much static. Your
changes always store to PouchDB and then sync to CouchDB.

Perhaps in the spirit of "keep it simple", the "format" should be N/A or
proprietary as only technically savvy people will be able to dig the data
out of the raw on-disk files of CouchDB or the web browser.

I may have been getting to specific for you. I didn't know you have a small
pre-defined set.
Post by Mat
<:-)
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Jed Carty
2018-05-28 18:33:38 UTC
Permalink
I think that trying to define these as exclusive categories is a problem
because almost none of the options fit into just one. Almost all of the
servers can save wikis but because of the scary name people may avoid
something because it says it is a server instead of a saver when it is both.

One problem with the portability part is that the list is referring to if
the installation is portable, not if the usable part is portable. I am not
tied to any specific device to use TiddlySpot but it isn't portable in the
sense used by the table.
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Lost Admin
2018-05-28 18:39:58 UTC
Permalink
I'm with Jed on the portability part. Perhaps "works offline" instead? Even
that is somewhat dependent on the details (I run a webdav server on my
laptop, so it works fine when I'm offline).

There are also issue with "dependencies" as the list I provided is a very
small sub-set of WebDAV server options that I believe should work fine for
TiddlyWiki. At the same time, taking away the dependencies column is
probably a bad idea because for many that would be a deciding factor.

Mat has really taken on a hard project.
Post by Jed Carty
I think that trying to define these as exclusive categories is a problem
because almost none of the options fit into just one. Almost all of the
servers can save wikis but because of the scary name people may avoid
something because it says it is a server instead of a saver when it is both.
One problem with the portability part is that the list is referring to if
the installation is portable, not if the usable part is portable. I am not
tied to any specific device to use TiddlySpot but it isn't portable in the
sense used by the table.
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Mat
2018-05-28 19:56:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lost Admin
I'm with Jed on the portability part. Perhaps "works offline" instead?
Even that is somewhat dependent on the details (I run a webdav server on my
laptop, so it works fine when I'm offline).
Already got "works offline" as a criteria.


There are also issue with "dependencies" as the list I provided is a very
Post by Lost Admin
small sub-set of WebDAV server options that I believe should work fine for
TiddlyWiki. At the same time, taking away the dependencies column is
probably a bad idea because for many that would be a deciding factor.
Please note that "the WebDAV server options" are probably limitless, just
like most servers. I'm therefore limiting the SetUp site to only show
things that are specfically designed for TW - OR with instructions that
some kind tiddlywikian has detailed so that one can design a system that
makes TW work properly.


Mat has really taken on a hard project.
In my view, the question of how to set-up a TW system belongs to everyone
so I've merely brought it up on the table for us to mould. As we're doing
right now :-)


<:-)
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Mat
2018-05-28 19:51:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jed Carty
I think that trying to define these as exclusive categories is a problem
because almost none of the options fit into just one. Almost all of the
servers can save wikis but because of the scary name people may avoid
something because it says it is a server instead of a saver when it is both.
The key question is what brings light to the user. I hope the categories
will answer his question "I want something that can X. I'll see what
set-ups fulfill this!" and perhaps also "I know very little about what I
want so I need to know what I should consider when setting up a TW system"

One problem with the portability part is that the list is referring to if
Post by Jed Carty
the installation is portable, not if the usable part is portable. I am not
tied to any specific device to use TiddlySpot but it isn't portable in the
sense used by the table.
Yeah. Maybe "self-contained" is a better angle? Or perhaps that interferes
with "dependencies"? Maybe the criteria should be "USB-stick'able"? or,
"e-mail'able"? IMO it would be fair to put "Yes" for a service like
TiddlySpot on this because you can still use it without fuzz from e.g a
USB-stick.

<:-)
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-28 21:24:08 UTC
Permalink
... IMO it would be fair to put "Yes" for a service like TiddlySpot on
this because you can still use it without fuzz from e.g a USB-stick.
That is not portability. That is cloudability.

A portable application is one (a program, not a site) that (1) makes no
registry entries and creates no files outside its own directories; (2) uses
relative addressing such that you can move its install folder between disks
and it will work exactly the same.

Bob is portable. TiddlyDesktop isn't.

Josiah
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TonyM
2018-05-29 00:47:26 UTC
Permalink
Mat,

There has being "a lot of water under the bridge", in this conversation and
it is now a little hard to identify the current state of play. I always
intended to contribute but have being very busy, Can I suggest a few
points, some random some systematic and you can see how they fit into the
the final result?

TiddlyDesktop Claims it can serve on the network although I have not seen
the settings or instructions yet. It servers single Files, Node JS and
Provides a browser (NW?). and has the index wiki.
If in fact all these advertised features are available in TidlyDesktop and
it helps us identify the components we need to address in your wonderful
table.

I have raised this previously but all tiddlywikis use a browser, be it one
of the common ones, or one built into the solution like TiddlyDesktop,
"AndTWiki"

*Here is a brain dump of what I know about all the different alternatives,
and the rules arising, I have studied.*


1. All tiddlywikis use a browser, be it one of the common ones, or one
built into the solution
2. In a browser there are two ways to access a tiddlywiki be it an
http:// address or a file:// address
3. If they(wikis) are accessed at a http address there is a server
somewhere, servers "replace the* need* for a file saver", but you can
still save as a file.
4. If they(wikis) are accessed at a file:// address there needs to be a
"file saver in the browser" or a tiddler Database *but only if the
default download mechanism is undesirable (it often is)*
5. TiddlyDesktop comes with its own browser AND can serve files AND
provide a filesaver to TiddlyWikis opened in it.
6. All ? Servers can serve on the local only address, or on the network
using the physical servers IP Address (which allows other devices on the
network to access the server, and any wikis it hosts)
7. Some servers can serve folder based wikis and others can also serve
single file wikis
8. All ? TiddlyWikis can save file or folder wikis as file based wikis
9. All ? TiddlyWikis (including served folder base wikis) can Import
tiddlers from file wikis or intermediate bundles of tiddlers (eg JSON files)
10. *Most *servers are based on NodeJS installed or packaged in the
server implimentation
11. NoteSelf is not a Server, but it can use CouchDB and Pouch DB to
Server tiddlers, a wonderful feature is the CounchDB (I think of as being
in my loungeroom) is inside your browser session but only serves tiddlers
to that browser session so it emulates a file saver (but it does not update
the original tiddlywikifile or HTML hosted "file")
12. NoteSelf allows you to "Host" tiddlywikis as plane HTML files
anywhere with updates to that html file saved in CounchDB or PouchDB, Since
PouchDB is outside the browser you can access the tiddlers it serves by
logging in with a NoteSelf File tiddlywiki, or HTML hosted tiddlywiki. In
this case we have two tiddler based database servers on local (browser
session only) "CoundDB and a Remote tiddler based database server (pouchDB)


There seems to be a clear distinction between File based wikis and Folder
Based Wikis (typical hosted in NodeJS but I expect an increase in Databases
of Tiddlers "database hosted wikis" as with PouchDB. I would like to see
one based on MySQL as an example.

File based wikis
Folder Based Wikis
Database hosted wikis
- Database Inbrowser
- External database (Local or remote)

Regardless of the above how do you access your database?
Within a provided Browser (addressing handled internally)
At a File:// Address
At an http:// address
Local
Remote

For Example (the difficult cases?)
*Bob* is a server, has an "index wiki", Serves Folder based wikis, not file
based wikis, does not have its own Browser, removes the need for a saver,
can send Operating Systems Messages to the Physical server it is installed
on, can be accesses localy and remotely, and can cope with multiple access
to the same wiki.
*TiddlyServer* is a server, has an "index (but no index Wiki)", Serves File
and Folder based wikis, does not have its own Browser, removes the need for
a saver, , can be accesses localy and remotely, however multiple access to
the same wiki could result in "contention".

A final note:
File based wikis can typically be *opened in any browser, and be saved with
any browser* (this is often forgotten), However FileBased wikis require a
file saver to *bypass the default Download method*, usually one for the
given browser in which it is running, Since browser security has increased
there are limitations to how file savers can operate (eg; Under the
browsers download folder, though not always true)

Depending on the server, File and Folder based wikis that are served can be
accessed via a local or remote IP address and since the server handles the
save mechanism no file save is required meaning "Served" wikis can be
accessed with virtually any browser (although results may differ).

The above statements are 100% correct to my understanding, Please consider
this in deciding on columns, and feel free to extract some text as
explainers (tooltips perhaps), if someone had told me these things when I
first started with TiddlyWiki I would have saved a lot of time.

Regards
Tony
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-29 01:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mat,

NoteSelf fits into two categories. One as a (remote) Service and one as a
(local browser) Saver. The complication of it as a local browser saver is
that it needs to connect to the github starting page at least once. So
it's not 100% offline. That is, if someone needed to set it up inside a
sealed room cut off from the rest of the world they would currently be out
of luck.

As a setup, it is not a Server because no one has demonstrated how to set
up Pouch as a server, and then how to configure TW to use it. This is
apparently not a trivial task. If the idea is to direct people towards
real, implemented solutions, then SN as a Server is not there yet

-- Mark
Post by Mat
So, you want your TW to...
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TonyM
2018-05-29 01:58:24 UTC
Permalink
Mark,

I understand the desire not to document the apparently unachivable, setting
up a PouchDB but people have done this (although Difficult) never the less
my definition stands. CouchDB is a *Tiddler (not wiki) Server,* Even
PouchDB needs to be though of as a Local *Tiddler Server* because it can
explain how the underlying tiddlywki may not have new content in it that is
held in the CouchDB.

*Please note I have used my words very carefully*.

If as you say The complication of it as a local browser saver is that it
needs to connect to the github starting page at least once then the
internet is a setup dependency nothing more (Unless it is needed every
time), all it requires is a special note. In part because we have not yet
defined if internet access is required or it is operated "offline". A
column indicating "can be used offline" could have the values Yes, No,
Conditional, and with local/remote server access or something like that.

Perhaps an ease of setup column should be used to show pouchDB is
difficult, although those with the IBM database version can currently do it
with less complexity than setting up their own.

The thing is we must be careful not to paint a false picture or depart from
a careful use of words because even novices may detect inconsistencies and
find it hard to understand or believe the list. This is the reason I have
suggested this treatment of NoteSelf because

1. It varies form other solutions
2. Includes unfamiliar technology to most,
3. We can expect more cases of databases that serve tiddlers.
In which case more items will have similar specifications.


Best Wishes
Tony
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Hi Mat,
NoteSelf fits into two categories. One as a (remote) Service and one as a
(local browser) Saver. The complication of it as a local browser saver is
that it needs to connect to the github starting page at least once. So
it's not 100% offline. That is, if someone needed to set it up inside a
sealed room cut off from the rest of the world they would currently be out
of luck.
As a setup, it is not a Server because no one has demonstrated how to set
up Pouch as a server, and then how to configure TW to use it. This is
apparently not a trivial task. If the idea is to direct people towards
real, implemented solutions, then SN as a Server is not there yet
-- Mark
Post by Mat
So, you want your TW to...
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-29 14:16:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by TonyM
Perhaps an ease of setup column should be used to show pouchDB is
difficult, although those with the IBM database version can currently do it
with less complexity than setting up their own.
NO. Merely, where available, specialist help support could be linked to.
For NoteSelf it is: https://forum.noteself.org
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-29 14:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by TonyM
We can expect more cases of databases that serve tiddlers.
In which case more items will have similar specifications.
Right. @Maarfapad <https://twitter.com/maarfapad> has been experimenting
towards it. Currently in private beta.
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Lost Admin
2018-05-29 12:42:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Hi Mat,
NoteSelf fits into two categories. One as a (remote) Service and one as a
(local browser) Saver. The complication of it as a local browser saver is
that *it needs to connect to the github starting page at least once*. So
it's not 100% offline. That is, if someone needed to set it up inside a
sealed room cut off from the rest of the world they would currently be out
of luck.
The underlined part of your statement is not entirely accurate. At least
not any more so than it would be to say that one needs to *connect to
tiddlywiki.com/empty.html at least once to use TiddlyWiki*.

Although you can use the github as your starting point, you can also
download the NoteSelf variation of empty.html and use that from any static
web server. As an example, switch to private browsing or incognito mode and
go to https://notes.suntrap.ca/noteself.html. Or, use the download button
at the bottom of https://noteself.github.io/ and save your own copy of an
empty noteself.html and use it locally.

P.S. sorry for getting so technical Mat. But the conversation has gotten
way deep.

Oh, and those instructions are coming. I've got a day job so they aren't
coming fast.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-29 14:48:20 UTC
Permalink
First Encounter is NOT relevant anyway. It gets ridiculous mixing up how
you download/start with a running TW. Its the basic nature of normal
function that is the focus ... not how you got there.

Just IMO
Post by Lost Admin
... The complication of it as a local browser saver is that *it needs to
connect to the github starting page at least once*...
The underlined part of your statement is not entirely accurate.
P.S. sorry for getting so technical Mat. But the conversation has gotten
way deep.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-29 15:12:31 UTC
Permalink
You're right. It's been awhile since I tried to use NoteSelf.

It does seem like it's in two categories, working either as a saver or as
service. I would not say it qualifies as a "server" until there is a
complete setup explaining how to (1) set up your own couch server and (2)
connect a NoteSelf instance to that server.

Thanks,
Mark
Post by Lost Admin
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Hi Mat,
NoteSelf fits into two categories. One as a (remote) Service and one as a
(local browser) Saver. The complication of it as a local browser saver is
that *it needs to connect to the github starting page at least once*.
So it's not 100% offline. That is, if someone needed to set it up inside a
sealed room cut off from the rest of the world they would currently be out
of luck.
The underlined part of your statement is not entirely accurate. At least
it is as accrate as saying that one needs to *connect to
tiddlywiki.com/empty.html <http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html> at least once
to use TiddlyWiki*.
Although you can use the github as your starting point, you can also
download the NoteSelf variation of empty.html and use that from any static
web server. As an example, switch to private browsing or incognito mode and
go to https://notes.suntrap.ca/noteself.html. Or, use the download button
at the bottom of https://noteself.github.io/ and save your own copy of an
empty noteself.html and use it locally.
P.S. sorry for getting so technical Mat. But the conversation has gotten
way deep.
Oh, and those instructions are coming. I've got a day job so they aren't
coming fast.
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Mat
2018-05-29 16:27:35 UTC
Permalink
OK, SetUp <http://setup.tiddlyspot.com/>has been updated to hopefully
reflect all the new info... even if I have quite possibly missed something
or misunderstood it... in which case I ask you to point this out. As I hope
has already been noted, you can click the SetUp names to get some info
about the SetUp. I've added some info there that doesn't fit in the table.

There are too many posts to reply to individually but I hope it is clear
that I really appreciate them all and read them carefully. Thank you guys.

Of course, there is *still a lot of missing info*. Please keep it coming.

Also note I've changed the initial "explanations" somewhat. Whaddyasay:

savers - Saving mechanisms enabling things that the native TW saving can't
do
servers - Programs that serve tiddlers and control who/what has access to
them
services - Services run by someone else to store, serve (and ultimately
control) your tiddlers
managers - Tools to manage multiple TiddlyWikis
And, still, any other suggestions for improvements are welcome.

I think good way to identify what's important are questions/scenarios like:

- "OK, I'm going to set up a TW system for my friend/co-worker/mum/...
what will he/she consider important? (if he/she knew how to formulate it)"
- What does a tech-savvy hacker look at?
- What would "the average facebook user" consider important?
- How about the paranoid guy?
- "I just want it to be simple!"
- What does it take for this to be used in a corporate environment of 10
people? 100 people?

...

<:-)
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-29 16:50:49 UTC
Permalink
TiddlyDesktop:

auto-backup: Yes
browser: Internal Chrome Engine (NOT a full browser)
data-storage-location: Local
dependencies: None
encryption: Native-TW-encr. on TW files
file-or-folder: Both
format: html & .tid
mobile-first: no
multi-user: no
os: win mac linux
portable: no
versioning: no
works-offline: yes
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-29 16:56:40 UTC
Permalink
I want add ... :-)

unique-features: Lovely menus. Runs like a normal program.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
auto-backup: Yes
browser: Internal Chrome Engine (NOT a full browser)
data-storage-location: Local
dependencies: None
encryption: Native-TW-encr. on TW files
file-or-folder: Both
format: html & .tid
mobile-first: no
multi-user: no
os: win mac linux
portable: no
versioning: no
works-offline: yes
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Mat
2018-05-29 17:50:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I want add ... :-)
unique-features: Lovely menus. Runs like a normal program.
I added this too. It gave me the idea to have user comments... but that
would really be more work to collect than I can do... so I came to think of
the usual problem with federated wikis and to somehow collects user
comments... and I came to wonder what steps will be needed from here,
considering all the SetUp's :-)


<:-)
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Mat
2018-05-29 17:27:50 UTC
Permalink
[..criteria...]


Added.

browser: Internal Chrome Engine (NOT a full browser)
Hm, the idea with the criteria is to let users set requirements so from a
user standpoint I am writing "N/A" for the browser criteria - but I added a
note in the SetUp text.

Thank you!

<:-)
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-29 17:41:25 UTC
Permalink
Mat "versioning" is slightly ambiguous in application.

Usually it refers to a system that has an "inbuilt method of recovery" ...
i.e. the interface itself lets you go back. NoteSelf (or, rather, CouchDB)
has that. But TiddlyDesktop and other saving mechanisms have Redundant
Backup, which is similar, but no interface for.

In some ways "Redundant Backup" might be more accurate to what goes on in
TW. For instance TiddyDesktop doesn't do version control, but it does do
redundant backup.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-29 18:12:26 UTC
Permalink
The way it's worded, it's looking for per-tiddler versioning. Which is
pretty much only Noteself. There is another category for backups.

-- Mark
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Mat "versioning" is slightly ambiguous in application.
Usually it refers to a system that has an "inbuilt method of recovery"
... i.e. the interface itself lets you go back. NoteSelf (or, rather,
CouchDB) has that. But TiddlyDesktop and other saving mechanisms have
Redundant Backup, which is similar, but no interface for.
In some ways "Redundant Backup" might be more accurate to what goes on in
TW. For instance TiddyDesktop doesn't do version control, but it does do
redundant backup.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-29 18:19:26 UTC
Permalink
Per-tiddler versioning. Got it.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
The way it's worded, it's looking for per-tiddler versioning. Which is
pretty much only Noteself. There is another category for backups.
-- Mark
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Mat "versioning" is slightly ambiguous in application.
Usually it refers to a system that has an "inbuilt method of recovery"
... i.e. the interface itself lets you go back. NoteSelf (or, rather,
CouchDB) has that. But TiddlyDesktop and other saving mechanisms have
Redundant Backup, which is similar, but no interface for.
In some ways "Redundant Backup" might be more accurate to what goes on in
TW. For instance TiddyDesktop doesn't do version control, but it does do
redundant backup.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-29 18:57:08 UTC
Permalink
I just notice for TiddlyDesktop under multi-user you entered "N/A". I think
its actually "No".
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Mat
2018-05-29 19:15:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I just notice for TiddlyDesktop under multi-user you entered "N/A". I
think its actually "No".
corrected, thanx

<:-)
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-29 19:19:08 UTC
Permalink
On Bob on Node.js you say format is "TW-plugin". That does not make sense
to me. I'm unclear what you mean.

On Bob single exec. under file-or-folder you say "Switchable." Natively
they are only .tid files (folder). Do you mean that because you CAN
generate a single file wiki its "switchable"? Unclear.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-29 19:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Regarding TiddlySpot

file-or-folder: "file"
mobile-first: N/A (i.e. someone might upload a mobile friendly TW someday)
multi-user: no
os: any
portable: N/A (its an online service)
versioning: no
works-offline: no
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Mat
2018-05-30 19:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Regarding TiddlySpot
...
added

<:-)
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Jed Carty
2018-05-30 02:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Bob on node is a normal plug in the same as any other node plug in when you install it, so I think listing it like that makes sense.
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Mat
2018-05-30 19:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
On Bob on Node.js you say format is "TW-plugin". That does not make sense
to me. I'm unclear what you mean.
On Bob single exec. under file-or-folder you say "Switchable." Natively
they are only .tid files (folder). Do you mean that because you CAN
generate a single file wiki its "switchable"? Unclear.
I will investigate these properly to give it the maximum "end user
perspective" in some time but currently the info comes straight from the
horses mouth ;-)


<:-)
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-29 17:16:23 UTC
Permalink
AndTidWiki ...

By: ***@gmail.com (not sure it works)

Source: AndTidWiki ... free (with ads) ...
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.mgsimon.android.andtidwiki&hl=en

Source: AndTidWiki+ ... paid ...
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.mgsimon.android.andtidwikiplus

Info: ????
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Mat
2018-05-29 17:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
AndTidWiki ...
added info. Thank you.

<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-05-29 17:20:56 UTC
Permalink
TiddlyWiki in the Sky and TiddlyDrive seem to most closely correspond to
"services". They save via someone else's service (actually use 2 services)
and there is no equivalent server that you can set up to do the same thing.

"File Backups" is definitely in the "saver" category. It doesn't serve up
anything, and provides services the native file saver doesn't do (like
auto-save, and backups).

data-storage: local-file
dependencies: no (assuming you don't think of a plugin as a dependency)
encryption: native
file-or-folder: file
format: TW-plugin
mobile-first: no
multi-user: no

The popup messages from the header row on the right side are chopped off by
the screen edge on my FF browser.

Thanks,
Mark

Thanks!
Mark
Post by Mat
OK, SetUp <http://setup.tiddlyspot.com/>has been updated to hopefully
reflect all the new info... even if I have quite possibly missed something
or misunderstood it... in which case I ask you to point this out. As I hope
has already been noted, you can click the SetUp names to get some info
about the SetUp. I've added some info there that doesn't fit in the table.
There are too many posts to reply to individually but I hope it is clear
that I really appreciate them all and read them carefully. Thank you guys.
Of course, there is *still a lot of missing info*. Please keep it coming.
savers - Saving mechanisms enabling things that the native TW saving
can't do
servers - Programs that serve tiddlers and control who/what has access
to them
services - Services run by someone else to store, serve (and ultimately
control) your tiddlers
managers - Tools to manage multiple TiddlyWikis
And, still, any other suggestions for improvements are welcome.
- "OK, I'm going to set up a TW system for my friend/co-worker/mum/...
what will he/she consider important? (if he/she knew how to formulate it)"
- What does a tech-savvy hacker look at?
- What would "the average facebook user" consider important?
- How about the paranoid guy?
- "I just want it to be simple!"
- What does it take for this to be used in a corporate environment of
10 people? 100 people?
...
<:-)
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Mat
2018-05-29 18:40:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
TiddlyWiki in the Sky and TiddlyDrive seem to most closely correspond to
"services". They save via someone else's service (actually use 2 services)
and there is no equivalent server that you can set up to do the same thing.
Interesting. Added.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
"File Backups" is definitely in the "saver" category. It doesn't serve up
anything, and provides services the native file saver doesn't do (like
auto-save, and backups).
(no, IMO dependencies is when some other software or service is required)
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
The popup messages from the header row on the right side are chopped off
by the screen edge on my FF browser.
yeah, thanks. I'll fiddle with this in a few days.

Again, thank you for valuable input.

<:-)
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-05-29 18:29:36 UTC
Permalink
Thank god for big screens :-)
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Lost Admin
2018-05-29 18:36:56 UTC
Permalink
@Mat

Based on how I'm seeing the other options filled in, Webdav should be
"Any-standard-OS". Apparently Apache HTTPD is even available on Android
(https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.esminis.server.apache&hl=en_US)!

I'll let you know when I get the instructions for FreeBSD/Windows/Linux
done. :-)
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FrD
2018-05-30 15:40:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

The android app "Serveur WebDAV" works well on saving TWs both locally and
on dropbox (on my Samsung A5 phone).

Regards

FrD
Post by Lost Admin
@Mat
Based on how I'm seeing the other options filled in, Webdav should be
"Any-standard-OS". Apparently Apache HTTPD is even available on Android (
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.esminis.server.apache&hl=en_US
)!
I'll let you know when I get the instructions for FreeBSD/Windows/Linux
done. :-)
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Mat
2018-05-31 19:12:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by FrD
The android app "Serveur WebDAV" works well on saving TWs both locally and
on dropbox (on my Samsung A5 phone).
Thanks for informing! I don't find anything ni the google play store
<https://play.google.com/store/search?q=serveur%20webdav&c=apps&hl=en> (or
whatever it is called) that is titled "serveur WebDAV" nor "server WebDav".
A few seem to be named the other way (and withou the "u"), i.e "WebDAV
Server". Could you provide a link to the one you're using?

Thanks!

<:-)
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FrD
2018-06-01 08:06:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Here it is :

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.theolivetree.webdavserver

Regards

FrD
Post by Mat
Post by FrD
The android app "Serveur WebDAV" works well on saving TWs both locally
and on dropbox (on my Samsung A5 phone).
Thanks for informing! I don't find anything ni the google play store
<https://play.google.com/store/search?q=serveur%20webdav&c=apps&hl=en>
(or whatever it is called) that is titled "serveur WebDAV" nor "server
WebDav". A few seem to be named the other way (and withou the "u"), i.e
"WebDAV Server". Could you provide a link to the one you're using?
Thanks!
<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-06-01 14:09:09 UTC
Permalink
Looking over WebDav Server "read more", I don't see anything in it about
authentication.

In fact, AFAIK, none of the server approaches (except maybe WebDav via ISS)
have any authorization restrictions.

Jed has a warning at the top of his page, which is good.

But maybe there should be a comments column that warns potential users
about the coffee-shop wifi danger?

-- Mark
Post by FrD
Hi,
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.theolivetree.webdavserver
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-06-16 09:23:31 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Mat

This is an Afterthought. It is no way an original thought of mine.

It came from reading up a lot on the various solutions for running TW, plus
some on-the-turf experience of frustration when a solution turned out to
have limits I was NOT warned about in advance.

Solution: It is simply this: Have a descriptive field that says what a
solution specifically WON'T DO!

Not in the choice system, but visible in the full details of an option.

This came up to me as pretty important to actual usage. Especially for new
users.

Let me give you two examples ...

1 -- Running under Node, accessing external files like images, pdfs, mp3
can get very complicated. It would not be a first choice IF you needed
simple routine integration of such files.

2 -- Running in TiddlyDesktop. It has limits in that it is not a full
browser. For instance it can't save passwords. It can't in "new window"
currently print. (Though a recent plugin by BTC enables it.) For many uses
these lacks won't matter. For some they really will.

Whilst great filtering criteria--like you have--gets you close to the right
choice, a few additional things need commented on before a user commits to
a download of an install, IMO.

This is not meant as implying YOU should do anything more. Merely I think
it (the "It Won't") will turn up, sooner-or-later a salient factor in
actual choices.

Hope this is clear!

Best wishes
Josiah
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David Gifford
2018-06-16 14:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mat

I didn't have Backend on the toolmap, and do not have SetUp on their
either. It is time to rectify that.

Could you please help me by reviewing the categories at
https://dynalist.io/d/zUP-nIWu2FFoXH-oM7L7d9DM and telling me which
category (or categories) it belongs in, and a one or two line description
of what it does? Just reply to this post and start the first line with Hi
giffmex so I can identify it quickly. Thanks!
Post by Mat
So, you want your TW to...
- function well on your *phone*?
- *auto-sync* with your many devices?
- work as a *shared* family wiki with to-do lists, reference matter
and all?
- ...or even as a corporate system, with *simultaneous editing*?
- ...and automatic *backups*?
- be totally off-the-grid on a *RasPi* server?
- or you want tools to *manage *all those TWs of yours?
Well, maybe it's possible....
The ol' TWaddler proudly presents...
SetUp <http://setup.tiddlyspot.com/>
- a guide to help you navigate to the TW system you want
This was previously named "BackEnd" but SetUp is more appropriate given
that it concerns TW-specific: Savers, Servers, Services and Managers
As you can see on that site, if you experiment a little and tick some
check-boxes, a lot of info is missing. You may disagree or want to add or
to remove either of...
- SetUps
- criteria (i.e the "features" listed that a user may look at to
decide what suits him)
- options for the criteria
- or even the categorization into "savers, servers, services and
managers"
Well, I need help with this information. I barely know what a server is...
but I do know how to copy-paste text so if you guys provide the info, I do
the foot work.
The point is to help anyone... no, I mean *everyone*!.. to get the most
out of TW. It really concerns all of us, so please do a good deed and help
out. The TiddlyGods will reward you.
<:-)
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