Discussion:
[tw] Voicing Futures ...
(too old to reply)
@TiddlyTweeter
2017-03-12 14:01:50 UTC
Permalink
*Here is a discussion I and Jeremy Ruston started, privately, on Twitter.
We realised that it could just as well be public in case anyone else wants
to read / comment ... *

*Josiah, 1... *
Are we all doomed to have to give up on simple download file-saving?

Do you know if the excellent TiddlyFox 2 will still work after the ominous
Firefox 57?

WHY do Mozilla take so LONG approving add-ons?

WHY do you keep TiddlyFox on Mozilla add-ons marked as "Experimental"?

Best wishes
Josiah


*Jeremy, 1...*
By “simple download file saving” do you mean the default fall back HTML 5
saver? I’ve no idea about Firefox 57. I’ve no idea why Mozilla do what they
do. I mark it experimental to save it going through Mozilla’s more rigorous
full review.


*Josiah, 2...*
Ciao Jeremy. I guess where I am coming from is as a "naive" user (well, I'm
pretending to be one & try stay in that skin a bit).

I'm trying to get my head round the stumbling blocks to better uptake of
TW.

No. On "saving" I mean what TiddlyFox does brilliantly, simply. Overwrite.
The fallback behaviour of save(1) save(2) is not viable, IMO, for most
folk.

On Mozilla ... on everything I read they are internally confident in what
they are doing ... just about everything else is like witnessing shooting
into the foot. It all gets too convoluted.

I now understand why you keep it "experimental". From a naive user point of
view its a slight put-off. I'm not sure but does the latest v1 still work
in FF 52. 57 is when they say they will go wholly WebExtensions: Firefox 57
- Compatability Milestone
<https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2017/02/16/the-road-to-firefox-57-compatibility-milestones/>

*Jeremy, 2...*
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki
stem from the single file architecture. It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most
people. The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those
problems melt away. Simple. If on the other hand, anyone wants the
considerable advantages of working offline without a server, well, then
TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the planet that can help them, and it comes
with a learning curve. That’s life.

*Jeremy, 3...*
My sense is that you are pushing to find a way for the standalone HTML file
experience to match the ease of use of an online service. I don’t think
that’s possible.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2017-03-13 00:20:43 UTC
Permalink
If you had read any javascript book from the 90s, they would have assured
you that you couldn't write or change client-side code to the local file
system. What TW/TW5 managed to do for so long was nearly miraculous.

In terms of workarounds, I can imagine a small batch file on the desktop
that would find the last version of a created html TW file, copy it to it's
intended start directory, and then launch it in the web-browser. The batch
file equivalent would need to be written for whatever platform and/or
technologies were available.

Speaking of technologies, is it no longer possible to use a signed java
applet to save changes?

Mark
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
*Here is a discussion I and Jeremy Ruston started, privately, on Twitter.
We realised that it could just as well be public in case anyone else wants
to read / comment ... *
*Josiah, 1... *
Are we all doomed to have to give up on simple download file-saving?
Do you know if the excellent TiddlyFox 2 will still work after the ominous
Firefox 57?
WHY do Mozilla take so LONG approving add-ons?
WHY do you keep TiddlyFox on Mozilla add-ons marked as "Experimental"?
Best wishes
Josiah
*Jeremy, 1...*
By “simple download file saving” do you mean the default fall back HTML 5
saver? I’ve no idea about Firefox 57. I’ve no idea why Mozilla do what they
do. I mark it experimental to save it going through Mozilla’s more rigorous
full review.
*Josiah, 2...*
Ciao Jeremy. I guess where I am coming from is as a "naive" user (well,
I'm pretending to be one & try stay in that skin a bit).
I'm trying to get my head round the stumbling blocks to better uptake of
TW.
No. On "saving" I mean what TiddlyFox does brilliantly, simply. Overwrite.
The fallback behaviour of save(1) save(2) is not viable, IMO, for most
folk.
On Mozilla ... on everything I read they are internally confident in what
they are doing ... just about everything else is like witnessing shooting
into the foot. It all gets too convoluted.
I now understand why you keep it "experimental". From a naive user point
of view its a slight put-off. I'm not sure but does the latest v1 still
work in FF 52. 57 is when they say they will go wholly WebExtensions: Firefox
57 - Compatability Milestone
<https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2017/02/16/the-road-to-firefox-57-compatibility-milestones/>
*Jeremy, 2...*
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki
stem from the single file architecture. It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most
people. The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those
problems melt away. Simple. If on the other hand, anyone wants the
considerable advantages of working offline without a server, well, then
TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the planet that can help them, and it comes
with a learning curve. That’s life.
*Jeremy, 3...*
My sense is that you are pushing to find a way for the standalone HTML
file experience to match the ease of use of an online service. I don’t
think that’s possible.
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Jon
2017-03-13 06:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Josiah,

You seem to be pushing for something which you see as inconvenient without
appreciating the underlying complexities involved, which as a "naive" user
myself, I can only guess at.
I just think that if there was a quick fix to this issue, Jeremy would have
already introduced it.

Regards
Jon
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
*Here is a discussion I and Jeremy Ruston started, privately, on Twitter.
We realised that it could just as well be public in case anyone else wants
to read / comment ... *
*Josiah, 1... *
Are we all doomed to have to give up on simple download file-saving?
Do you know if the excellent TiddlyFox 2 will still work after the ominous
Firefox 57?
WHY do Mozilla take so LONG approving add-ons?
WHY do you keep TiddlyFox on Mozilla add-ons marked as "Experimental"?
Best wishes
Josiah
*Jeremy, 1...*
By “simple download file saving” do you mean the default fall back HTML 5
saver? I’ve no idea about Firefox 57. I’ve no idea why Mozilla do what they
do. I mark it experimental to save it going through Mozilla’s more rigorous
full review.
*Josiah, 2...*
Ciao Jeremy. I guess where I am coming from is as a "naive" user (well,
I'm pretending to be one & try stay in that skin a bit).
I'm trying to get my head round the stumbling blocks to better uptake of
TW.
No. On "saving" I mean what TiddlyFox does brilliantly, simply. Overwrite.
The fallback behaviour of save(1) save(2) is not viable, IMO, for most
folk.
On Mozilla ... on everything I read they are internally confident in what
they are doing ... just about everything else is like witnessing shooting
into the foot. It all gets too convoluted.
I now understand why you keep it "experimental". From a naive user point
of view its a slight put-off. I'm not sure but does the latest v1 still
work in FF 52. 57 is when they say they will go wholly WebExtensions: Firefox
57 - Compatability Milestone
<https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2017/02/16/the-road-to-firefox-57-compatibility-milestones/>
*Jeremy, 2...*
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki
stem from the single file architecture. It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most
people. The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those
problems melt away. Simple. If on the other hand, anyone wants the
considerable advantages of working offline without a server, well, then
TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the planet that can help them, and it comes
with a learning curve. That’s life.
*Jeremy, 3...*
My sense is that you are pushing to find a way for the standalone HTML
file experience to match the ease of use of an online service. I don’t
think that’s possible.
--
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Ákos Szederjei
2017-03-13 12:24:14 UTC
Permalink
Jon, I do not think I (we) lack the appreciation for the complexities of the
problem. As a user, we bow to the Almighty Powers of The Developers, but I
think you underestimate how important an easy save feature is, as we have it
now.

The problem as we see it, is very relevant to the use and spread of TW. In my
opinion, to have an easy save option is not a "nice to have feature" or a
question of (in)convenience. I use TW on Linux without it, and I lost lot of
work because I closed browser / tab accidentally or because I simply forgot
to save. TW is capabilities are way to complex to not to have an "auto" save
feature.

I also disagree with the assumption that the save option is a server side
feature. I understand the notion why it is easier to have that on a server
side based wiki. I am not saying we need to have the same functionality as a
server side wiki. There are many solutions, besides plug ins, which were
listed before by the members of this list. Currently we do not have a platform
independent solution for the problem.

Maybe I am overestimating the problem, that would be valid answer I accept,
yet disagree with.

I rest my case. :)

Ákos
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Josiah,
You seem to be pushing for something which you see as inconvenient without
appreciating the underlying complexities involved, which as a "naive" user
myself, I can only guess at.
I just think that if there was a quick fix to this issue, Jeremy would have
already introduced it.
Regards
Jon
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
*Here is a discussion I and Jeremy Ruston started, privately, on Twitter.
We realised that it could just as well be public in case anyone else wants
to read / comment ... *
*Josiah, 1... *
Are we all doomed to have to give up on simple download file-saving?
Do you know if the excellent TiddlyFox 2 will still work after the ominous
Firefox 57?
WHY do Mozilla take so LONG approving add-ons?
WHY do you keep TiddlyFox on Mozilla add-ons marked as "Experimental"?
Best wishes
Josiah
*Jeremy, 1...*
By “simple download file saving” do you mean the default fall back HTML 5
saver? I’ve no idea about Firefox 57. I’ve no idea why Mozilla do what
they
do. I mark it experimental to save it going through Mozilla’s more
rigorous
full review.
*Josiah, 2...*
Ciao Jeremy. I guess where I am coming from is as a "naive" user (well,
I'm pretending to be one & try stay in that skin a bit).
I'm trying to get my head round the stumbling blocks to better uptake of
TW.
No. On "saving" I mean what TiddlyFox does brilliantly, simply. Overwrite.
The fallback behaviour of save(1) save(2) is not viable, IMO, for most
folk.
On Mozilla ... on everything I read they are internally confident in what
they are doing ... just about everything else is like witnessing shooting
into the foot. It all gets too convoluted.
I now understand why you keep it "experimental". From a naive user point
of view its a slight put-off. I'm not sure but does the latest v1 still
Firefox 57 - Compatability Milestone
<https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2017/02/16/the-road-to-firefox-57-compati
bility-milestones/>
*Jeremy, 2...*
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki
stem from the single file architecture. It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most
people. The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those
problems melt away. Simple. If on the other hand, anyone wants the
considerable advantages of working offline without a server, well, then
TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the planet that can help them, and it comes
with a learning curve. That’s life.
*Jeremy, 3...*
My sense is that you are pushing to find a way for the standalone HTML
file experience to match the ease of use of an online service. I don’t
think that’s possible.
--
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Jon
2017-03-13 12:57:45 UTC
Permalink
Hi Akos,

I'm really not qualified to comment. All I'd say is that the impression I
have from Jeremy's and other's responses to this question is that the
reasons the save issue hasn't been solved is due to technical difficulties
rather than not appreciating how important having an easy saving mechanism
is, especially for new users etc.
I'm sure someone else will be able to clarify the position.

Regards
Jon
Post by Ákos Szederjei
Jon, I do not think I (we) lack the appreciation for the complexities of the
problem. As a user, we bow to the Almighty Powers of The Developers, but I
think you underestimate how important an easy save feature is, as we have it
now.
The problem as we see it, is very relevant to the use and spread of TW. In my
opinion, to have an easy save option is not a "nice to have feature" or a
question of (in)convenience. I use TW on Linux without it, and I lost lot of
work because I closed browser / tab accidentally or because I simply forgot
to save. TW is capabilities are way to complex to not to have an "auto" save
feature.
I also disagree with the assumption that the save option is a server side
feature. I understand the notion why it is easier to have that on a server
side based wiki. I am not saying we need to have the same functionality as a
server side wiki. There are many solutions, besides plug ins, which were
listed before by the members of this list. Currently we do not have a platform
independent solution for the problem.
Maybe I am overestimating the problem, that would be valid answer I accept,
yet disagree with.
I rest my case. :)
Ákos
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Josiah,
You seem to be pushing for something which you see as inconvenient
without
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
appreciating the underlying complexities involved, which as a "naive"
user
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
myself, I can only guess at.
I just think that if there was a quick fix to this issue, Jeremy would
have
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
already introduced it.
Regards
Jon
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
*Here is a discussion I and Jeremy Ruston started, privately, on
Twitter.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
We realised that it could just as well be public in case anyone else
wants
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
to read / comment ... *
*Josiah, 1... *
Are we all doomed to have to give up on simple download file-saving?
Do you know if the excellent TiddlyFox 2 will still work after the
ominous
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Firefox 57?
WHY do Mozilla take so LONG approving add-ons?
WHY do you keep TiddlyFox on Mozilla add-ons marked as "Experimental"?
Best wishes
Josiah
*Jeremy, 1...*
By “simple download file saving” do you mean the default fall back
HTML 5
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
saver? I’ve no idea about Firefox 57. I’ve no idea why Mozilla do what
they
do. I mark it experimental to save it going through Mozilla’s more rigorous
full review.
*Josiah, 2...*
Ciao Jeremy. I guess where I am coming from is as a "naive" user
(well,
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I'm pretending to be one & try stay in that skin a bit).
I'm trying to get my head round the stumbling blocks to better uptake
of
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
TW.
No. On "saving" I mean what TiddlyFox does brilliantly, simply.
Overwrite.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
The fallback behaviour of save(1) save(2) is not viable, IMO, for most
folk.
On Mozilla ... on everything I read they are internally confident in
what
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
they are doing ... just about everything else is like witnessing
shooting
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
into the foot. It all gets too convoluted.
I now understand why you keep it "experimental". From a naive user
point
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
of view its a slight put-off. I'm not sure but does the latest v1
still
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Firefox 57 - Compatability Milestone
<
https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2017/02/16/the-road-to-firefox-57-compati
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
bility-milestones/>
*Jeremy, 2...*
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with
TiddlyWiki
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
stem from the single file architecture. It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to
most
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
people. The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all
those
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
problems melt away. Simple. If on the other hand, anyone wants the
considerable advantages of working offline without a server, well,
then
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the planet that can help them, and it comes
with a learning curve. That’s life.
*Jeremy, 3...*
My sense is that you are pushing to find a way for the standalone HTML
file experience to match the ease of use of an online service. I don’t
think that’s possible.
--
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-03-13 13:51:52 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Mark S., Ákos & Jon

*BACKUP.* Because of the importance of work I now do in TW, complementing
the excellent TiddlyFox auto-save, I run a resident ("redundant") backup
program that detects file changes in my TWs every 30 minutes. I simply
cannot afford to lose work. Basically BACKUP can be handled and is, I
think, quite manageable with the many tools around. *But you can't backup
what you haven't saved.*

*RE-ENTRANT SAVING*. In the discussion with Jeremy there is a lot.
Especially in his second comment. Opening that up, what it implies in
detail, is I think very interesting.
One aspect of it is, centrally, whether in the future, RE-ENTRANT
SAVING will still be possible (i.e. via some gadget in the browser) or not.
I think that matters. I understand that the way browsers are going is
making it harder than ever. That was a large part of where I was coming
from. I STILL think that a TW that can save over itself as an standalone is
not something to give up on entirely quite yet.
And, perhaps naively, I believe its still quite important to wider
uptake of TW.

Best wishes
Josiah
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Eric Shulman
2017-03-13 20:46:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
The fallback behaviour of save(1) save(2) is not viable, IMO, for most
folk.
First... a bit of history to provide a bit of perspective on how we came to
be here...

Many years ago, browsers permitted "privileged file I/O" operations from
Javascript simply by making a call to "request permissions". This would
display a dialog box that would ask the user to allow direct file I/O.
Once permitted, that choice could be remembered, so that further saving
would happen without showing the dialog again. This enabled seamless
manual saving (via "save changes" menu item) and autosaving while editing
(after a set number of keystrokes) as well as autosaving on a timed basis.

Unfortunately, this method of gaining permission for file I/O was prone to
some hacking. There were ways of spoofing the dialog... for example, by
having it appear off-screen and showing an alternative on-screen message
box with a simple OK button to trick the user into giving permission to
access the file system without realizing it.

In addition, once permission was granted, access to the file system was
*unrestricted*. You could navigate to ANY folder, programmatically, and
read/write the directory and file contents at will from within TiddlyWiki.
Of course, this presented a HUGE security hole, since tiddlers containing
embedded inline javascript could be easily copied from remote sources and,
if permission to access the file system had *ever* been granted, then file
I/O could occur silently, without requiring any user interaction or even
awareness that file I/O was taking place.

Of course, TiddlyWiki also benefited immensely from this ability, as it
allowed the kind of smooth, "just save it" behavior that most people have
come to expect from an application, as well as the ability to provide
plugins to provide more sophisticated file-related interactions, such as
Import, Export, and SaveAs and automatic backup strategies that used
timestamps in filenames to preserve previous revisions on minute, hour,
daily, and weekly basis.

Inevitably, however, the browser makers came to the conclusion that file
I/O was too dangerous to be allowed directly from insecure Javascript, and
they attempted to limit the impact by restricting file I/O to "the current
working folder and below" and then gradually phased out and then completely
removed support for access to "privileged I/O functions" except when they
are defined as part of curated browser-based addon code that must be
explicitly installed on each platform and instance of the browser that you
intend to use with TiddlyWiki... and thus, gave rise to clever bits of code
like TiddlyFox and TiddlyDesktop.

When Jeremy began work on TiddlyWiki5, one of the major advances in
architecture that he innovated is the use of FileSaver modules. This
allows a much more consistent internal API for TiddlyWiki to work in a
variety of environments and configurations, including stand-alone files,
locally-served folders (via nodejs), remotely-hosted stand-alone files (via
upload to store.php... e.g., TiddlySpot.com), and full server-side hosting.

Independent of these core-included abilities, other people in the TW
community have created FileSaver modules for using various databases
(either locally-hosted or remote). There's also browser-based LocalStorage
I/O... which uses a "sandboxed" private file space that is allocated within
the browser's local cache, without exposing the rest of the file system.

Regrettably, all of these solutions, regardless of their benefits also have
their peculiarities and drawbacks, including platform, environment, and
browser-specific limitations as well as various multi-step
installation/configuration issues.

Currently, there is only ONE file I/O method included in the TW5 core code
that can be considered to have ANY chance of being "universal"... and that
is the so-called "fallback download saver" method. Every browser that
permits downloading a file provides some kind of secure, interactive
process to allow the user to transfer files onto their local file system
while reducing the risk of being struck by some kind of malicious exploit.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
The fallback behaviour of save(1) save(2) is not viable, IMO, for most
folk.
To which I respond: I respectfully disagree... and here's why:

First, the "download a file" behavior is already familiar to nearly all
users. Sure, there are some system-specific differences between the
various browsers and platforms, but for the most part, they all work nearly
the same way when a download is initiated.

For example, some browsers will immediately ask for a 'destination folder'
for the download, but others are configured by default to simply place
downloaded content into a "Downloads" folder, without asking the user.
Most browsers allow the user to change this setting so that downloads will
always request a destination folder. IMO, the effort to change this setting
is MUCH less than that required to install and configure a browser-specific
addon.

Second, once the browser has been configured to ask for a location, the
automatic "collision handling" of save(1), save(2), etc. can actually be a
HUGE benefit to TiddlyWiki's "edit-save-reload" workflow cycle. For
example, consider the following workflow scenario (that I actually use
myself)

1) go to a folder on my desktop that contains "index.html" and open it to
start working
2) make some changes that you want to keep and press "save changes"
3) browser download dialog appears. If needed, navigate to the "current
working folder" (the one containing index.html)
4) the default suggested filename should be something like "index (1).html"
5) press save and resume working on the current document without reloading
6) repeat as desired, creating incremental "checkpoint" saves "index
(2).html", "index (3).html", etc.

Then... suppose that as you continue to work, you realize that you "messed
something up", and can't figure out what broke. So, you go back to the
folder on your desktop, and open the most recent "checkpoint" save and see
if the problem existed in the previous revision. If it did, then you keep
working backwards, until the bug disappears. Then, you can carefully
compare the two revisions to determine exactly what changed, and hopefully
find the error quickly.

This "checkpoint" revision methodology also lends itself to making small
experimental changes without immediately committing those changes by always
overwriting the base "index.html". This is especially useful if the
changes require a reload of the TiddlyWiki to be tested. After saving to
index(1).html, just load that saved file in another browser tab or window..
If it fails to load, or otherwise has some bad bug that make it inoperable,
you still have the current index.html loaded in the first tab, so you can
go back and fix things there.

7) if you are satisfied that all changes are good, save again (from either
tab)... and select the base "index.html" file as the destination
8) when the system asks, confirm "replace this file" (or "allow
overwrite".. .or whatever the wording is)
9) continue working (with or without reloading)
10) finally, when you are completely finished with your work session, you
can go back to the folder on your desktop and delete all the checkpoint
files, leaving just the final updated base "index.html"... just as you
would expect.

Personally, I quite like the 'safety' provided by the automatic addition of
"(n)" to the filenames. It ensure that I don't accidentally overwrite the
base file without a deliberate decision that I am ready to make my changes
permanent. It also makes hunting for bugs easier since I can use external
tools (e.g., "diff") to compare the saved files and quickly find all the
differences.

One last interesting scenario.... sometimes, especially when researching
the answer to a question posted online, I will open
http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html, and start creating a few test/example
tiddlers from scratch. Once I have a good working example, I can just use
"save changes" to trigger the usual download saver, which provides
*exactly* the same local file saving experience to me, regardless of
whether I am working online or locally.

In conclusion:

While solutions like TiddlyFox and TiddlyDesktop do provide a 'smoother'
process for local file saving and we should clearly continue efforts to
implement a wide variety of FileSaver modules and other file-saving
solutions, the "fallback download saver" process is actually quite useful
and remarkably consistent and reliable across nearly all platforms and does
not require ANY extra steps to install/configure, making it the likely
experience for most 'novice' TiddlyWiki users.

IMO, the best strategy for assisting novice users with the file saving
experience is to first help them to understand the default download saving
process while also introducing them to the more advanced solutions provided
by various plugins, addons, and external apps.

your thoughts?

-e
Eric Shulman
TiddlyTools: "Small Tools for Big Ideas" (tm)
InsideTiddlyWiki: The Missing Manuals
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-03-14 18:47:45 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Eric for taking the time to thoughtfully lay out the detailed
history. I really appreciate it.

By way of reply I'd like to divide between two things. Its just a way of
talking, though perhaps brings a bit from a slightly different perspective.
Two broad points ...

1 - INNOCENT LANDING.

2 - PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE WISER ALREADY

I'd like to start with (2). BACKUP is essential whatever you are doing.
Depending of your level of paranoia / experience of PAST oversight.

This is not really a TW issue.

WHY? Because its a sensible empirical convention that you can't rely on one
system to protect you. And browsers are very prone to fuck-ups. EXTERNAL
backup is pretty reliable. Personally I do automated redundant backups
whenever a TW file is changed. To say again, this is NOT a TW issue.

* It's a basic attitude. The need for EXTERNAL backup*.

*BUT: your approach seems to FOG that up with native saving.*

SO I question the added value of YOUR scenario: which is, basically, a
via-browser backup system.

*I'd RATHER talk about EXTERNAL BACKUP on that rather than what reads like
a series of complex EXTRA steps.*

On (1). Idiots like me arrive everyday. Used to conventions on saving on a
click. I think this is maybe my big point. Its an entirely different one
than (2). On this issue it seems that "we" may need to "educate" "them"?

My question on this is this is simply whether its a viable approach to even
entertain file save? Jeremy in his note #2 in the starting post seems to
incline to on-line services as the easiest way forward for "the masses".

I'm convinced I'm slightly incoherent on all this. Lets stab in the dark
together.

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Eric Shulman
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
The fallback behaviour of save(1) save(2) is not viable, IMO, for most
folk.
First... a bit of history to provide a bit of perspective on how we came
to be here...
Many years ago, browsers permitted "privileged file I/O" operations from
Javascript simply by making a call to "request permissions". This would
display a dialog box that would ask the user to allow direct file I/O.
Once permitted, that choice could be remembered, so that further saving
would happen without showing the dialog again. This enabled seamless
manual saving (via "save changes" menu item) and autosaving while editing
(after a set number of keystrokes) as well as autosaving on a timed basis.
Unfortunately, this method of gaining permission for file I/O was prone to
some hacking. There were ways of spoofing the dialog... for example, by
having it appear off-screen and showing an alternative on-screen message
box with a simple OK button to trick the user into giving permission to
access the file system without realizing it.
In addition, once permission was granted, access to the file system was
*unrestricted*. You could navigate to ANY folder, programmatically, and
read/write the directory and file contents at will from within TiddlyWiki.
Of course, this presented a HUGE security hole, since tiddlers containing
embedded inline javascript could be easily copied from remote sources and,
if permission to access the file system had *ever* been granted, then file
I/O could occur silently, without requiring any user interaction or even
awareness that file I/O was taking place.
Of course, TiddlyWiki also benefited immensely from this ability, as it
allowed the kind of smooth, "just save it" behavior that most people have
come to expect from an application, as well as the ability to provide
plugins to provide more sophisticated file-related interactions, such as
Import, Export, and SaveAs and automatic backup strategies that used
timestamps in filenames to preserve previous revisions on minute, hour,
daily, and weekly basis.
Inevitably, however, the browser makers came to the conclusion that file
I/O was too dangerous to be allowed directly from insecure Javascript, and
they attempted to limit the impact by restricting file I/O to "the current
working folder and below" and then gradually phased out and then completely
removed support for access to "privileged I/O functions" except when they
are defined as part of curated browser-based addon code that must be
explicitly installed on each platform and instance of the browser that you
intend to use with TiddlyWiki... and thus, gave rise to clever bits of code
like TiddlyFox and TiddlyDesktop.
When Jeremy began work on TiddlyWiki5, one of the major advances in
architecture that he innovated is the use of FileSaver modules. This
allows a much more consistent internal API for TiddlyWiki to work in a
variety of environments and configurations, including stand-alone files,
locally-served folders (via nodejs), remotely-hosted stand-alone files (via
upload to store.php... e.g., TiddlySpot.com), and full server-side hosting.
Independent of these core-included abilities, other people in the TW
community have created FileSaver modules for using various databases
(either locally-hosted or remote). There's also browser-based LocalStorage
I/O... which uses a "sandboxed" private file space that is allocated within
the browser's local cache, without exposing the rest of the file system.
Regrettably, all of these solutions, regardless of their benefits also
have their peculiarities and drawbacks, including platform, environment,
and browser-specific limitations as well as various multi-step
installation/configuration issues.
Currently, there is only ONE file I/O method included in the TW5 core code
that can be considered to have ANY chance of being "universal"... and that
is the so-called "fallback download saver" method. Every browser that
permits downloading a file provides some kind of secure, interactive
process to allow the user to transfer files onto their local file system
while reducing the risk of being struck by some kind of malicious exploit.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
The fallback behaviour of save(1) save(2) is not viable, IMO, for most
folk.
First, the "download a file" behavior is already familiar to nearly all
users. Sure, there are some system-specific differences between the
various browsers and platforms, but for the most part, they all work nearly
the same way when a download is initiated.
For example, some browsers will immediately ask for a 'destination folder'
for the download, but others are configured by default to simply place
downloaded content into a "Downloads" folder, without asking the user.
Most browsers allow the user to change this setting so that downloads will
always request a destination folder. IMO, the effort to change this setting
is MUCH less than that required to install and configure a browser-specific
addon.
Second, once the browser has been configured to ask for a location, the
automatic "collision handling" of save(1), save(2), etc. can actually be a
HUGE benefit to TiddlyWiki's "edit-save-reload" workflow cycle. For
example, consider the following workflow scenario (that I actually use
myself)
1) go to a folder on my desktop that contains "index.html" and open it to
start working
2) make some changes that you want to keep and press "save changes"
3) browser download dialog appears. If needed, navigate to the "current
working folder" (the one containing index.html)
4) the default suggested filename should be something like "index (1).html"
5) press save and resume working on the current document without reloading
6) repeat as desired, creating incremental "checkpoint" saves "index
(2).html", "index (3).html", etc.
Then... suppose that as you continue to work, you realize that you "messed
something up", and can't figure out what broke. So, you go back to the
folder on your desktop, and open the most recent "checkpoint" save and see
if the problem existed in the previous revision. If it did, then you keep
working backwards, until the bug disappears. Then, you can carefully
compare the two revisions to determine exactly what changed, and hopefully
find the error quickly.
This "checkpoint" revision methodology also lends itself to making small
experimental changes without immediately committing those changes by always
overwriting the base "index.html". This is especially useful if the
changes require a reload of the TiddlyWiki to be tested. After saving to
index(1).html, just load that saved file in another browser tab or window..
If it fails to load, or otherwise has some bad bug that make it inoperable,
you still have the current index.html loaded in the first tab, so you can
go back and fix things there.
7) if you are satisfied that all changes are good, save again (from either
tab)... and select the base "index.html" file as the destination
8) when the system asks, confirm "replace this file" (or "allow
overwrite".. .or whatever the wording is)
9) continue working (with or without reloading)
10) finally, when you are completely finished with your work session, you
can go back to the folder on your desktop and delete all the checkpoint
files, leaving just the final updated base "index.html"... just as you
would expect.
Personally, I quite like the 'safety' provided by the automatic addition
of "(n)" to the filenames. It ensure that I don't accidentally overwrite
the base file without a deliberate decision that I am ready to make my
changes permanent. It also makes hunting for bugs easier since I can use
external tools (e.g., "diff") to compare the saved files and quickly find
all the differences.
One last interesting scenario.... sometimes, especially when researching
the answer to a question posted online, I will open
http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html, and start creating a few test/example
tiddlers from scratch. Once I have a good working example, I can just use
"save changes" to trigger the usual download saver, which provides
*exactly* the same local file saving experience to me, regardless of
whether I am working online or locally.
While solutions like TiddlyFox and TiddlyDesktop do provide a 'smoother'
process for local file saving and we should clearly continue efforts to
implement a wide variety of FileSaver modules and other file-saving
solutions, the "fallback download saver" process is actually quite useful
and remarkably consistent and reliable across nearly all platforms and does
not require ANY extra steps to install/configure, making it the likely
experience for most 'novice' TiddlyWiki users.
IMO, the best strategy for assisting novice users with the file saving
experience is to first help them to understand the default download saving
process while also introducing them to the more advanced solutions provided
by various plugins, addons, and external apps.
your thoughts?
-e
Eric Shulman
TiddlyTools: "Small Tools for Big Ideas" (tm)
InsideTiddlyWiki: The Missing Manuals
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Eric Shulman
2017-03-14 20:16:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
*BUT: your approach seems to FOG that up with native saving.*
*I'd RATHER talk about EXTERNAL BACKUP on that rather than what reads like
a series of complex EXTRA steps.*
It's clear what you'd "rather" talk about. But in the process, you are
summarily dismissing "download saving" as being "complex extra steps" when
they are NOT complex, and the "extra" steps are minimal. To re-iterate...
here's the steps to using the download saver:

1) click save
2) double-click index.html (from system-standard "file save" dialog box)
3) click OK (a simple modal "are you sure" confirmation popup)
4) press F5

...and out of these 4 ***exceedingly** simple steps, TWO of them (steps 1
and 4) are *exactly* the same as when using TiddlyFox or other 'saver'
addons.

And, if we factor in the "complexity" of installation... external backup
solutions require researching, choosing, downloading, installing and
configuring some variety of backup software that is typically either a
completely separate stand-alone application (yet another thing to learn!),
or injects itself into the operating system to "automagically" back up
changes. Sure, within your own usage paradigm, browser add-ons (TiddlyFox)
combined external backup systems might produce the best workflow for YOU...
but for many, many people, installing add-ons and 3rd-party software can be
beyond their abilities, or may even be completely prohibited by their work
environment.

By comparison, enabling "always ask for location to download" is a simple
settings change to an application that is already installed (the browser).
Just to be clear... here's ALL the steps required for the ONE-TIME
configuration of the download saver solution. (note: I use Chrome)

1) select browser command menu (upper right corner, 3-dots icon)
2) select Settings
3) scroll down to the bottom
4) select "advanced settings"
5) scroll down to "download" section
6) check "ask where to save each file before downloading"
DONE.

So... to summarize the complete impact of using the download saver:

* configuration: change one setting in your browser
* usage: adds a double-click and a single-click

oh.. and one more thing... what happens to your external backup strategy
when you start traveling with your TW documents and need to use someone
else's system to make some changes to your files? They may not have ANY
external backup software installed and, even if they do, in might not be
anything like what you are using on your system, and would you really want
YOUR files backed up in THEIR system? Once you leave their home/office,
you won't have access to those backups anyway, and might be leaving behind
data you didn't intend to share.... and let's not even consider the issues
with using public internet cafe's.

With download saving and a USB stick, you have a nearly 100% portable
solution that allows you to work with virtually ANY browser you may
encounter, with NO dependencies on any other applications and no data left
behind.

-e
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Ákos Szederjei
2017-03-14 22:35:37 UTC
Permalink
TiddlyFox, like TW Desktop, saved the TW file whenever a Tiddler was closed. So
no dialog vs. 4 step. Any dialog causes more complexity.

Why have word processors / text editors auto safe feature? Because they are
convenient and speed up work.

You can always safe with File / Save As in the browser. 4 Steps too.

Both Linux and Windows have backup tools which are quite good. They take 30
seconds to setup and done.

I understand the technical difficulties, and it is ok not being able to resolve
it, or even not wanting too, because other feature are deemed more important.
But please, do not tell me that without TiddlyFox my workflow is comparably
easy. It is not obviously not.

Ákos
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Eric Shulman
2017-03-14 23:56:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ákos Szederjei
I understand the technical difficulties, and it is ok not being able to resolve
it, or even not wanting too, because other feature are deemed more
Post by Ákos Szederjei
important.
It's ok to disagree with what I wrote... but...

I never said ANYTHING about "not wanting to" or "deemed more important"

DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!

Just because you don't agree with my explanation does not mean you get to
MAKE STUFF UP about what I said.

YOU ARE NOT DONALD TRUMP!
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Ákos Szederjei
2017-03-15 00:48:24 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eric!

Who said YOU are not being able to resolve it, or YOU do not want too, because
other feature are deemed more important? Really...
The world is not revolving around you. This list is about TW and not about
your capabilities. What you do or want I could care less. It is not that you
will resolve the issue of the plug in on your own. If you are the sole
developer of this issue I profoundly apologise.

Talking about making stuff up? You claimed that the 4 step solution of yours
is the same as if the plug in is used. Really? I just closed a Tiddly in old
FF and it auto saved. The same, sure, and my microwaves make video
recordings...

Fortunately, I am not really dependent on the offline functionality for my wiki.
Your argumentation (or the lack of it) convinced me to switch now to another
wiki and not wait for a solution for TW' saving problem.

Good luck with your endeavour!

Ákos
Post by Ákos Szederjei
Post by Ákos Szederjei
I understand the technical difficulties, and it is ok not being able to resolve
it, or even not wanting too, because other feature are deemed more
Post by Ákos Szederjei
important.
It's ok to disagree with what I wrote... but...
I never said ANYTHING about "not wanting to" or "deemed more important"
DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!
Just because you don't agree with my explanation does not mean you get to
MAKE STUFF UP about what I said.
YOU ARE NOT DONALD TRUMP!
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Mat
2017-03-15 09:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Guys, guys, please keep it constructive. It is super easy to misunderstand
- and to misphrase - in this text discussion format. The real efforts are
towards the betterment of TW, which is difficult enough per se ;-)

Hopefully this idea/question can put focus back:

How about *bookmarklets*? Could there be a bookmarklet save button that
both has access rights to the page and to the local computer?

Thank you!

<:-)
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PMario
2017-03-15 10:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mat
Guys, guys, please keep it constructive. It is super easy to misunderstand
- and to misphrase - in this text discussion format. The real efforts are
towards the betterment of TW, which is difficult enough per se ;-)
Well said.
Post by Mat
How about *bookmarklets*? Could there be a bookmarklet save button that
both has access rights to the page and to the local computer?
The same javascript restrictions as for pages, apply to bookmarks.

-m
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Jeremy Ruston
2017-03-15 13:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Hello Everyone,

It’s a shame to see this thread go a little off the rails as this is an important and interesting discussion — which may be why it has aroused such passions. That passion is itself an important component of the TiddlyWiki community: for many of us, using and working on TiddlyWiki is deeply intertwined with our lives, and so it’s natural to have strongly held opinions about it.

Nonetheless, we all have to pay attention to how we behave in order to keep things civil and fun. That means that we criticise ideas, not people; that we start with the assumption that everyone is participating in good faith, and we understand that the ambiguities and exigencies of online communication can have inadvertent side effects.

We should never lose sight of what we have in common. This community is a living example of how an incredibly diverse group of people can come together and help one another.

Best wishes

Jeremy
Post by Ákos Szederjei
Dear Eric!
Who said YOU are not being able to resolve it, or YOU do not want too, because
other feature are deemed more important? Really...
The world is not revolving around you. This list is about TW and not about
your capabilities. What you do or want I could care less. It is not that you
will resolve the issue of the plug in on your own. If you are the sole
developer of this issue I profoundly apologise.
Talking about making stuff up? You claimed that the 4 step solution of yours
is the same as if the plug in is used. Really? I just closed a Tiddly in old
FF and it auto saved. The same, sure, and my microwaves make video
recordings...
Fortunately, I am not really dependent on the offline functionality for my wiki.
Your argumentation (or the lack of it) convinced me to switch now to another
wiki and not wait for a solution for TW' saving problem.
Good luck with your endeavour!
Ákos
Post by Ákos Szederjei
Post by Ákos Szederjei
I understand the technical difficulties, and it is ok not being able to resolve
it, or even not wanting too, because other feature are deemed more
Post by Ákos Szederjei
important.
It's ok to disagree with what I wrote... but...
I never said ANYTHING about "not wanting to" or "deemed more important"
DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!
Just because you don't agree with my explanation does not mean you get to
MAKE STUFF UP about what I said.
YOU ARE NOT DONALD TRUMP!
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-03-15 13:39:52 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Jeremy, Pmario, Mat & others ...

Thanks for pointing out the drift in the wrong direction. I agree its not
terribly construction.

My apologies to Eric if I came over as aggressive.

I think my point is actually a broader one that I will try to present in a
later post.

By way of thoughts on thsi: The file-saving issues that me and others have
presented quite passionately matter, I think, still. BUT they need
contextualing in my opinion lest it looks like a conflict over ONE point.
It isn't really. And the useful* context is Jeremy's second statement*.

It is THAT, more than anything, that interested me personally to try and
open up more.

Very best wishes to all
Josiah
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Hello Everyone,
It’s a shame to see this thread go a little off the rails as this is an
important and interesting discussion — which may be why it has aroused such
passions. That passion is itself an important component of the TiddlyWiki
community: for many of us, using and working on TiddlyWiki is deeply
intertwined with our lives, and so it’s natural to have strongly held
opinions about it.
Nonetheless, we all have to pay attention to how we behave in order to
keep things civil and fun. That means that we criticise ideas, not people;
that we start with the assumption that everyone is participating in good
faith, and we understand that the ambiguities and exigencies of online
communication can have inadvertent side effects.
We should never lose sight of what we have in common. This community is a
living example of how an incredibly diverse group of people can come
together and help one another.
Best wishes
Jeremy
Post by Ákos Szederjei
Dear Eric!
Who said YOU are not being able to resolve it, or YOU do not want too,
because
Post by Ákos Szederjei
other feature are deemed more important? Really...
The world is not revolving around you. This list is about TW and not
about
Post by Ákos Szederjei
your capabilities. What you do or want I could care less. It is not that
you
Post by Ákos Szederjei
will resolve the issue of the plug in on your own. If you are the sole
developer of this issue I profoundly apologise.
Talking about making stuff up? You claimed that the 4 step solution of
yours
Post by Ákos Szederjei
is the same as if the plug in is used. Really? I just closed a Tiddly in
old
Post by Ákos Szederjei
FF and it auto saved. The same, sure, and my microwaves make video
recordings...
Fortunately, I am not really dependent on the offline functionality for
my wiki.
Post by Ákos Szederjei
Your argumentation (or the lack of it) convinced me to switch now to
another
Post by Ákos Szederjei
wiki and not wait for a solution for TW' saving problem.
Good luck with your endeavour!
Ákos
Post by Ákos Szederjei
Post by Ákos Szederjei
I understand the technical difficulties, and it is ok not being able
to
Post by Ákos Szederjei
Post by Ákos Szederjei
Post by Ákos Szederjei
resolve
it, or even not wanting too, because other feature are deemed more
Post by Ákos Szederjei
important.
It's ok to disagree with what I wrote... but...
I never said ANYTHING about "not wanting to" or "deemed more important"
DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!
Just because you don't agree with my explanation does not mean you get
to
Post by Ákos Szederjei
Post by Ákos Szederjei
MAKE STUFF UP about what I said.
YOU ARE NOT DONALD TRUMP!
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-03-15 14:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Ciao all ...

The starting post for this thread came from a private discussion that
Jeremy Ruston and I had on Twitter. We both realised it would likely be
more productive in public ...

Central to it is this by Jeremy in response to my queries...

Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
stem from the single file architecture.
It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most people.

The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those problems
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
melt away. Simple.
If on the other hand, anyone wants the considerable advantages of working
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
offline without a server, well, then TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the
planet that can help them,
and it comes with a learning curve. *(Layout edited slightly by me)*


There is a hell of a lot of his experience and knowledge packed into that
one paragraph. Its almost a roadmap to the future too??

Its the implications of this vision (as well, I guess, its accuracy) that I
think is worthy of much attention.

Best wishes
Josiah
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Arlen Beiler
2017-03-15 14:50:37 UTC
Permalink
What if we would combine the best of both words?
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao all ...
The starting post for this thread came from a private discussion that
Jeremy Ruston and I had on Twitter. We both realised it would likely be
more productive in public ...
Central to it is this by Jeremy in response to my queries...
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
stem from the single file architecture.
It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most people.
The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those problems
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
melt away. Simple.
If on the other hand, anyone wants the considerable advantages of working
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
offline without a server, well, then TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the
planet that can help them,
and it comes with a learning curve. *(Layout edited slightly by me)*
There is a hell of a lot of his experience and knowledge packed into that
one paragraph. Its almost a roadmap to the future too??
Its the implications of this vision (as well, I guess, its accuracy) that
I think is worthy of much attention.
Best wishes
Josiah
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Arlen Beiler
2017-03-15 14:53:33 UTC
Permalink
I'm thinking of a simple one file store.js file that would allow you to
load any TiddlyWiki from the folder you are serving and it would post the
changes back to the server.

node.exe store.js /path/to/my/folder

Navigate to http://127.0.0.1 and it will show you a standard directory
listing allowing you to select which tiddlywiki you want.

It could load the tiddlywiki directly or in an iframe and then save changes
back to the server.
Post by Arlen Beiler
What if we would combine the best of both words?
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao all ...
The starting post for this thread came from a private discussion that
Jeremy Ruston and I had on Twitter. We both realised it would likely be
more productive in public ...
Central to it is this by Jeremy in response to my queries...
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
stem from the single file architecture.
It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most people.
The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
problems melt away. Simple.
If on the other hand, anyone wants the considerable advantages of working
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
offline without a server, well, then TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the
planet that can help them,
and it comes with a learning curve. *(Layout edited slightly by me)*
There is a hell of a lot of his experience and knowledge packed into that
one paragraph. Its almost a roadmap to the future too??
Its the implications of this vision (as well, I guess, its accuracy) that
I think is worthy of much attention.
Best wishes
Josiah
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Arlen Beiler
2017-03-15 15:21:46 UTC
Permalink
Any thoughts?
Post by Arlen Beiler
I'm thinking of a simple one file store.js file that would allow you to
load any TiddlyWiki from the folder you are serving and it would post the
changes back to the server.
node.exe store.js /path/to/my/folder
Navigate to http://127.0.0.1 and it will show you a standard directory
listing allowing you to select which tiddlywiki you want.
It could load the tiddlywiki directly or in an iframe and then save
changes back to the server.
Post by Arlen Beiler
What if we would combine the best of both words?
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao all ...
The starting post for this thread came from a private discussion that
Jeremy Ruston and I had on Twitter. We both realised it would likely be
more productive in public ...
Central to it is this by Jeremy in response to my queries...
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with
TiddlyWiki stem from the single file architecture.
It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most people.
The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those
problems melt away. Simple.
If on the other hand, anyone wants the considerable advantages of
working offline without a server, well, then TiddlyWiki is the only thing
on the planet that can help them,
and it comes with a learning curve. *(Layout edited slightly by me)*
There is a hell of a lot of his experience and knowledge packed into
that one paragraph. Its almost a roadmap to the future too??
Its the implications of this vision (as well, I guess, its accuracy)
that I think is worthy of much attention.
Best wishes
Josiah
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Lost Admin
2017-03-15 16:44:04 UTC
Permalink
The challenge with any solution that involves more than using a web browser
is that some of us won't be able to use it. I suspect this group is a small
sub-set of TiddlyWiki users, so your idea still has merit and, I think,
should be pursued.

I use TiddyWiki at work because most of the information sources and tools I
need to look things up are on slow sharepoint sites (is there such a thing
as a fast sharepoint?). So, I copy the stuff I need from sharepoint into a
local TiddlyWiki.

I'm technically savvy enough to confidently install node.js on my work
computer but I'm not allowed to. I shouldn't even be able to except I need
escalated privileges for one of the tasks I have to do. But, the company's
desktop IDS would catch if I installed node.js without permission (which I
won't get). Fortunately, add-ins for Chrome are allowed (and they haven't
updated Chrome yet, so it still works). Sadly, I'm not allowed Firefox (I
don't know why).

When they update Chrome, I will need to switch how I use TiddyWiki and have
a slew of index(n).html files to sort through.


At home, I don't have this problem. I have a small server (Intel NUC) that
provides me with a tiddlywiki server (apache, php, and store.php). But, the
average non-technical user wouldn't be able to do that.
Post by Arlen Beiler
I'm thinking of a simple one file store.js file that would allow you to
load any TiddlyWiki from the folder you are serving and it would post the
changes back to the server.
node.exe store.js /path/to/my/folder
Navigate to http://127.0.0.1 and it will show you a standard directory
listing allowing you to select which tiddlywiki you want.
It could load the tiddlywiki directly or in an iframe and then save
changes back to the server.
Post by Arlen Beiler
What if we would combine the best of both words?
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao all ...
The starting post for this thread came from a private discussion that
Jeremy Ruston and I had on Twitter. We both realised it would likely be
more productive in public ...
Central to it is this by Jeremy in response to my queries...
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with
TiddlyWiki stem from the single file architecture.
It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most people.
The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those
problems melt away. Simple.
If on the other hand, anyone wants the considerable advantages of
working offline without a server, well, then TiddlyWiki is the only thing
on the planet that can help them,
and it comes with a learning curve. *(Layout edited slightly by me)*
There is a hell of a lot of his experience and knowledge packed into
that one paragraph. Its almost a roadmap to the future too??
Its the implications of this vision (as well, I guess, its accuracy)
that I think is worthy of much attention.
Best wishes
Josiah
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Arlen Beiler
2017-03-15 19:30:39 UTC
Permalink
Are you allowed to use portable apps? I am thinking of something that would
not require installation.
Post by Lost Admin
The challenge with any solution that involves more than using a web
browser is that some of us won't be able to use it. I suspect this group is
a small sub-set of TiddlyWiki users, so your idea still has merit and, I
think, should be pursued.
I use TiddyWiki at work because most of the information sources and tools
I need to look things up are on slow sharepoint sites (is there such a
thing as a fast sharepoint?). So, I copy the stuff I need from sharepoint
into a local TiddlyWiki.
I'm technically savvy enough to confidently install node.js on my work
computer but I'm not allowed to. I shouldn't even be able to except I need
escalated privileges for one of the tasks I have to do. But, the company's
desktop IDS would catch if I installed node.js without permission (which I
won't get). Fortunately, add-ins for Chrome are allowed (and they haven't
updated Chrome yet, so it still works). Sadly, I'm not allowed Firefox (I
don't know why).
When they update Chrome, I will need to switch how I use TiddyWiki and
have a slew of index(n).html files to sort through.
At home, I don't have this problem. I have a small server (Intel NUC) that
provides me with a tiddlywiki server (apache, php, and store.php). But, the
average non-technical user wouldn't be able to do that.
Post by Arlen Beiler
I'm thinking of a simple one file store.js file that would allow you to
load any TiddlyWiki from the folder you are serving and it would post the
changes back to the server.
node.exe store.js /path/to/my/folder
Navigate to http://127.0.0.1 and it will show you a standard directory
listing allowing you to select which tiddlywiki you want.
It could load the tiddlywiki directly or in an iframe and then save
changes back to the server.
Post by Arlen Beiler
What if we would combine the best of both words?
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao all ...
The starting post for this thread came from a private discussion that
Jeremy Ruston and I had on Twitter. We both realised it would likely be
more productive in public ...
Central to it is this by Jeremy in response to my queries...
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with
TiddlyWiki stem from the single file architecture.
It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most people.
The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those
problems melt away. Simple.
If on the other hand, anyone wants the considerable advantages of
working offline without a server, well, then TiddlyWiki is the only thing
on the planet that can help them,
and it comes with a learning curve. *(Layout edited slightly by me)*
There is a hell of a lot of his experience and knowledge packed into
that one paragraph. Its almost a roadmap to the future too??
Its the implications of this vision (as well, I guess, its accuracy)
that I think is worthy of much attention.
Best wishes
Josiah
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-03-16 19:03:38 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Arlen & all
Post by Arlen Beiler
What if we would combine the best of both words?
I do think that is something in all this. Perhaps it not so cut and dry?

Personally I am very interested in Danielo's ongoing project of a TW that
BOTH can auto-save into Browser Storage (into an automatically created
local database), rather than using the Download Saver mechanisms. It can
also be synced with a remote database. Once that is done you can use it
from more than one location. Basic info here: https://noteself.github.io/

I haven't had time, nor have I the competence, to thoroughly test it, but I
think it is very suggestive to see something concrete like that actually
seems to work.

Its in some ways, potentially, a demonstration of how the "on-line" and
"off-line" can be crossed. I think its interesting to look at in the
context of Jeremy's comments.

Best wishes
Josiah
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Mat
2017-03-16 21:04:11 UTC
Permalink
I could swear someone posted a link above to some Chrome extension.. or at
least mentioned on, but since I can't find it;

Downloads Overwrite Already Existing File
<https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/downloads-overwrite-alrea/lddjgfpjnifpeondafidennlcfagekbp>
and on github
<https://github.com/zach-adams/downloads-overwrite-already-existing-files>-
a quick glance at the code gives the impression of something extremely
lightweight!


<:-)
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Mat
2017-03-16 21:26:18 UTC
Permalink
Possibly also of interest: Downloads Router
<https://bitbucket.org/lfk/downloads-router-chrome-extension/overview>
Chrome Extension to (perhaps) always have TW files go to a designated local
folder.

<:-)
Post by Mat
I could swear someone posted a link above to some Chrome extension.. or at
least mentioned on, but since I can't find it;
Downloads Overwrite Already Existing File
<https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/downloads-overwrite-alrea/lddjgfpjnifpeondafidennlcfagekbp>
and on github
<https://github.com/zach-adams/downloads-overwrite-already-existing-files>-
a quick glance at the code gives the impression of something extremely
lightweight!
<:-)
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Danielo Rodríguez
2017-03-17 08:28:32 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Josiah for mentioning NoteSelf.
I'm not sure why most people ignore it or have decided to not talk about it.

It has all the three ootions: autosave on your local browser , manual download option and automatic synchronization to a remote databases.

I use it daily both at my work and my mobile phone. On my work I use it on chrome, while on my mobile phone I use the Android app (available on this forum ) and I never had a problem . I never had to remember which one was my latest version , I never had to wait until Dropbox synchronizes it to my new location , I never had to melt two files searching for the most recent editions of each. None of those problems , and you have a seamless experience both on mobile and desktop browsers. You don't even need to install the Android app if you don't want, the online version provides also an app-like experience .

As I said several times, I have created this for myself, but after a while I realized that maybe others could benefit from it so I have released. It's sad that so few people is using it .
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Lost Admin
2017-03-17 14:16:49 UTC
Permalink
I looked at it. It looks interesting. I liked the idea. I couldn't find any
instructions on how to set-up my own server to host my own.
Post by Danielo Rodríguez
Thank you Josiah for mentioning NoteSelf.
I'm not sure why most people ignore it or have decided to not talk about it.
It has all the three ootions: autosave on your local browser , manual
download option and automatic synchronization to a remote databases.
I use it daily both at my work and my mobile phone. On my work I use it on
chrome, while on my mobile phone I use the Android app (available on this
forum ) and I never had a problem . I never had to remember which one was
my latest version , I never had to wait until Dropbox synchronizes it to my
new location , I never had to melt two files searching for the most recent
editions of each. None of those problems , and you have a seamless
experience both on mobile and desktop browsers. You don't even need to
install the Android app if you don't want, the online version provides also
an app-like experience .
As I said several times, I have created this for myself, but after a while
I realized that maybe others could benefit from it so I have released. It's
sad that so few people is using it .
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Danielo Rodríguez
2017-03-17 14:24:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lost Admin
I looked at it. It looks interesting. I liked the idea. I couldn't find
any instructions on how to set-up my own server to host my own.
I want to add subtitles and some voice explanations, and add it to the main
page, but here is a 2 min video with a small how-to


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Mat
2017-03-17 16:52:57 UTC
Permalink
@Danielo

I'm not sure why most people ignore it or have decided to not talk about it.


I agree it deserves a LOT more attention, not least on the boards. (I'll
try to plug NoteSelf <https://noteself.github.io/> when it is relevant. ;-)

As for using it, I can't talk for others but the FAQ reads:

[...]Can I use for production/very important things?
I would love to answer yes, but for now please don't do it. Noteself is
still on Beta stage, and [...]
So, basically, I don't dare to put my important stuff there and the
non-important stuff... well, I find tiddlyspot really convenient and the
saving works great. And when I do my experimenting, chances are I'll
eventually publish it and then it's already there.

@everyone
Now, it would be very useful if we could choose saver for download #1755
<https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/1755> so people more
easily could easily try out various solutions considering that many people
are now working alternatives for saving or hosting, I think it would make
sense to prioritize this issue. A later step might be to mesh it with the
export function, e.g so people can save static tids to a blog.


<:-)
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Arlen Beiler
2017-03-19 19:11:12 UTC
Permalink
Lost admin,
Do you mean that TiddlyChrome app isn't working or were you talking about
the download router?
Thanks,
-Arlen
Post by Mat
@Danielo
I'm not sure why most people ignore it or have decided to not talk about
it.
I agree it deserves a LOT more attention, not least on the boards. (I'll
try to plug NoteSelf <https://noteself.github.io/> when it is relevant. ;-)
[...]Can I use for production/very important things?
I would love to answer yes, but for now please don't do it. Noteself is
still on Beta stage, and [...]
So, basically, I don't dare to put my important stuff there and the
non-important stuff... well, I find tiddlyspot really convenient and the
saving works great. And when I do my experimenting, chances are I'll
eventually publish it and then it's already there.
@everyone
Now, it would be very useful if we could choose saver for download #1755
<https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/1755> so people more
easily could easily try out various solutions considering that many people
are now working alternatives for saving or hosting, I think it would make
sense to prioritize this issue. A later step might be to mesh it with the
export function, e.g so people can save static tids to a blog.
<:-)
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Danielo Rodríguez
2017-03-21 17:32:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mat
I agree it deserves a LOT more attention, not least on the boards. (I'll
try to plug NoteSelf <https://noteself.github.io/> when it is relevant. ;-)
Thanks!
Post by Mat
[...]Can I use for production/very important things?
I would love to answer yes, but for now please don't do it. Noteself is
still on Beta stage, and [...]
So, basically, I don't dare to put my important stuff there and the
non-important stuff... well, I find tiddlyspot really convenient and the
saving works great. And when I do my experimenting, chances are I'll
eventually publish it and then it's already there.
That is a disclaimer. As I said, I use it everyday without any problem or
data loss. But I don't want anyone to trust it 100% like a comercial
product and then come back to me with any inquiry if they mess it up. In
any case All the technologies behind NoteSelf are quite mature, PouchDB is
a widespread project, TiddlyWiki is on stable stage and CouchDB is a very
mature product too.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-03-21 20:18:26 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Danielo

*I agree with all you write. All the components are mature and work.*

WHY is it so difficult to get started?

1 - its unclear how exactly to sign up to Cloudant. And whether they will
CHARGE your Credit Card. Do you need to pay to just test?

2 - its unclear what in SelfNote is the TW "Evernote Replacement" and what
could be used other ways.

3 - personally I'm interested in the PouchDB / CouchDB combo for E-pubs but
your github does not explain how to integrate the functions of PouchDB in a
standard TW that would enable that (not that you SHOULD--only if you
interested in that).

*4 - I suspect that the PouchDB mechanism could solve a lot hassle that
people have with saving TW. I think it deserves a lot of attention.*

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Danielo Rodríguez
Post by Mat
I agree it deserves a LOT more attention, not least on the boards. (I'll
try to plug NoteSelf <https://noteself.github.io/> when it is relevant. ;-)
Thanks!
Post by Mat
[...]Can I use for production/very important things?
I would love to answer yes, but for now please don't do it. Noteself is
still on Beta stage, and [...]
So, basically, I don't dare to put my important stuff there and the
non-important stuff... well, I find tiddlyspot really convenient and the
saving works great. And when I do my experimenting, chances are I'll
eventually publish it and then it's already there.
That is a disclaimer. As I said, I use it everyday without any problem or
data loss. But I don't want anyone to trust it 100% like a comercial
product and then come back to me with any inquiry if they mess it up. In
any case All the technologies behind NoteSelf are quite mature, PouchDB is
a widespread project, TiddlyWiki is on stable stage and CouchDB is a very
mature product too.
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Danielo Rodríguez
2017-03-22 11:51:15 UTC
Permalink
Hello Josiah

Very good questions. I think they should be added to the official FAQ.
Would you mind to open an issue to the official NoteSelf Repo?
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
1 - its unclear how exactly to sign up to Cloudant. And whether they will
CHARGE your Credit Card. Do you need to pay to just test?
Those are two questions actually. About how to sign up to Cloudant, there
is a video. I should spend some time making it remarkable. Regarding the
second question, Cloudant DO NOT require any Credit Card to sign up, and
they will not charge you anything unless you hit some (quite generous)
milestones.


2 - its unclear what in NoteSelf is the TW "Evernote Replacement" and what
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
could be used other ways.
For me being able to store notes, checklist, bookmarks, all in one place
and have them synched between devices is the part that replaces Evernote.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
3 - personally I'm interested in the PouchDB / CouchDB combo for E-pubs
but your github does not explain how to integrate the functions of PouchDB
in a standard TW that would enable that (not that you SHOULD--only if you
interested in that).
That is because I'm not interested on giving support to standalone usages
of TiddlyPouch. They require some technical skills that I don't have time
to properly explain to normal users. Any advanced user otherwise should be
able to just go to TiddlyPouch repo and grab it to their own needs.


Regards
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-03-22 19:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Danielo

Thanks for your response.
Post by Danielo Rodríguez
Very good questions. I think they should be added to the official FAQ.
Would you mind to open an issue to the official NoteSelf Repo?
Sure. If it is helpful.
Post by Danielo Rodríguez
3 - personally I'm interested in the PouchDB / CouchDB combo for E-pubs
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
but your github does not explain how to integrate the functions of PouchDB
in a standard TW that would enable that (not that you SHOULD--only if you
interested in that).
That is because I'm not interested on giving support to standalone usages
of TiddlyPouch. They require some technical skills that I don't have time
to properly explain to normal users. Any advanced user otherwise should be
able to just go to TiddlyPouch repo and grab it to their own needs.
In the context of the current thread I am very appreciative of your answer.
I think its obvious, in a way, that one person following an interest can't
easily support carrying forward of their work other than in a very
delimited way. They just don't have the time.

But, also, from my point of view it also looks like, in some ways,* good
things in TW that might well support wide use by non-specialists, get used
by a few, and never reach a critical mass.* I'm observing this phenomena
and thinking about it.

Its amazing the number of WAYS that TW can be got to work. But actually
forming an overview of them, one that you could communicate to others, is
not so easy.

Just thoughts

Best wishes
Josiah
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Arlen Beiler
2017-03-22 22:24:40 UTC
Permalink
The tiddlywiki architecture is inherently single file. This is why it is so
hard to get multi-user configured properly. You would have to virtually
dismantle tiddlywiki and put it together differently to get anything as
static as Wikipedia.

Even the server and online versions download everything in few files and
the core idea again is one file. If you load a tiddlywiki, the chances are
that the entire thing will slowly get loaded as you browse if it was
Wikipedia.

There are many options going forward, and almost all of them are very
single file oriented when setup correctly.

So I don't think our browser conundrum is going to be too much of a hold
up. It will only change the way things work, but they can still work just
as fast.

My thoughts,
-Arlen
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao Danielo
Thanks for your response.
Post by Danielo Rodríguez
Very good questions. I think they should be added to the official FAQ.
Would you mind to open an issue to the official NoteSelf Repo?
Sure. If it is helpful.
Post by Danielo Rodríguez
3 - personally I'm interested in the PouchDB / CouchDB combo for E-pubs
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
but your github does not explain how to integrate the functions of PouchDB
in a standard TW that would enable that (not that you SHOULD--only if you
interested in that).
That is because I'm not interested on giving support to standalone usages
of TiddlyPouch. They require some technical skills that I don't have time
to properly explain to normal users. Any advanced user otherwise should be
able to just go to TiddlyPouch repo and grab it to their own needs.
In the context of the current thread I am very appreciative of your
answer. I think its obvious, in a way, that one person following an
interest can't easily support carrying forward of their work other than in
a very delimited way. They just don't have the time.
But, also, from my point of view it also looks like, in some ways,* good
things in TW that might well support wide use by non-specialists, get used
by a few, and never reach a critical mass.* I'm observing this phenomena
and thinking about it.
Its amazing the number of WAYS that TW can be got to work. But actually
forming an overview of them, one that you could communicate to others, is
not so easy.
Just thoughts
Best wishes
Josiah
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Jeremy Ruston
2017-03-23 08:28:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi Arlen
Post by Arlen Beiler
The tiddlywiki architecture is inherently single file.
I’d respectfully disagree with that statement.

TiddlyWiki 5 has a chicken and egg architecture: the Node.js configuration is the chicken; the egg that it produces is the standalone single file configuration. But note the relationship: the Node.js configuration creates the single file configuration, not the other way around.

So, the archetypal form of TiddlyWiki is the Node.js configuration.

The key characteristic that is shared by both configurations is the idea of keeping all data in memory (quite a popular architecture in this decade). But that’s something that can be changed: the store is pluggable and can be replaced.
Post by Arlen Beiler
This is why it is so hard to get multi-user configured properly. You would have to virtually dismantle tiddlywiki and put it together differently to get anything as static as Wikipedia.
That sounds like a non-sequitor. There are a number of missing pieces for the multi user configuration where TW runs in the browser, as have been acknowledged and listed elsewhere. You seem to be referencing the architecture whereby individual static pages are generated (rather than shipping a full TW to the browser). I’m not aware of any major omissions there.
Post by Arlen Beiler
Even the server and online versions download everything in few files and the core idea again is one file.
I think here you are referring to the configuration where the server serves a full TW HTML file to the browser. That’s not the only configuration that is supported.
Post by Arlen Beiler
If you load a tiddlywiki, the chances are that the entire thing will slowly get loaded as you browse if it was Wikipedia.
Here I think you’re talking about lazy loading?

I don’t understand the comparison to Mediawiki. TiddlyWiki doesn’t have the same goals as MediaWiki. Why would it? We already have MediaWiki, so I’m not interested in re-inventing it. TiddlyWiki is trying to do something different.
Post by Arlen Beiler
There are many options going forward, and almost all of them are very single file oriented when setup correctly.
I don’t quite understand why you think that “almost all of them are very single file oriented”?
Post by Arlen Beiler
So I don't think our browser conundrum is going to be too much of a hold up. It will only change the way things work, but they can still work just as fast.
I think we’re coming from the same place here: the plethora of different configurations that TiddlyWiki supports means that we can be confident that it can be adapted to keep working into the far future.

Best wishes

Jeremy.
Post by Arlen Beiler
My thoughts,
-Arlen
Ciao Danielo
Thanks for your response.
Very good questions. I think they should be added to the official FAQ. Would you mind to open an issue to the official NoteSelf Repo?
Sure. If it is helpful.
3 - personally I'm interested in the PouchDB / CouchDB combo for E-pubs but your github does not explain how to integrate the functions of PouchDB in a standard TW that would enable that (not that you SHOULD--only if you interested in that).
That is because I'm not interested on giving support to standalone usages of TiddlyPouch. They require some technical skills that I don't have time to properly explain to normal users. Any advanced user otherwise should be able to just go to TiddlyPouch repo and grab it to their own needs.
In the context of the current thread I am very appreciative of your answer. I think its obvious, in a way, that one person following an interest can't easily support carrying forward of their work other than in a very delimited way. They just don't have the time.
But, also, from my point of view it also looks like, in some ways, good things in TW that might well support wide use by non-specialists, get used by a few, and never reach a critical mass. I'm observing this phenomena and thinking about it.
Its amazing the number of WAYS that TW can be got to work. But actually forming an overview of them, one that you could communicate to others, is not so easy.
Just thoughts
Best wishes
Josiah
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Arlen Beiler
2017-03-24 03:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jeremy,
It sounds like I didn't come across very clearly. I apologise. Hopefully
this will help clarify.

Even the server and online versions download everything in few files and
the core idea again is one file.

I think here you are referring to the configuration where the server serves
a full TW HTML file to the browser. That’s not the only configuration that
is supported.


I was actually referring to noteself and TW5 in the sky as well. Tank would
be an exception. Perhaps I should look that one up again.


I don’t understand the comparison to Mediawiki. TiddlyWiki doesn’t have the
same goals as MediaWiki. Why would it? We already have MediaWiki, so I’m
not interested in re-inventing it. TiddlyWiki is trying to do something
different.


I'm comparing it to MediaWiki because that is what I know. I would like to
find a way to implement multi-user. Maybe I should broaden my horizons :)

So I don't think our browser conundrum is going to be too much of a hold
up. It will only change the way things work, but they can still work just
as fast.

I think we’re coming from the same place here: the plethora of different
configurations that TiddlyWiki supports means that we can be confident that
it can be adapted to keep working into the far future.


That was actually the thrust of the entire email. Obviously it didn't come
across very clearly. My apologies :)

I was basically trying to say that is is very single file oriented (whereas
MediaWiki is very database oriented) therefore it is easy to switch
platforms (browsers themselves aren't going anywhere). Anything can serve
one file -- especially one that can generate itself.

The NodeJS system can generate almost anything. So between those two we
should be good.

Best wishes to you too :) I appreciate all the effort you've put into
Tiddlywiki :)
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Lost Admin
2017-03-17 14:14:29 UTC
Permalink
I posted the link. It turns out it stopped working on current versions of
Chrome because Google altered functionality for security reasons. I'm using
an older version of Chrome (because my employer hasn't upgraded yet, so it
works for me).

The link is https://github.com/Arlen22/tiddly-chrome-app
NOTE: I'm not the author, just a user.
Post by Mat
I could swear someone posted a link above to some Chrome extension.. or at
least mentioned on, but since I can't find it;
Downloads Overwrite Already Existing File
<https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/downloads-overwrite-alrea/lddjgfpjnifpeondafidennlcfagekbp>
and on github
<https://github.com/zach-adams/downloads-overwrite-already-existing-files>-
a quick glance at the code gives the impression of something extremely
lightweight!
<:-)
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Jon
2017-03-15 13:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Excellent.

Regards
Jon
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Hello Everyone,
It’s a shame to see this thread go a little off the rails as this is an
important and interesting discussion — which may be why it has aroused such
passions. That passion is itself an important component of the TiddlyWiki
community: for many of us, using and working on TiddlyWiki is deeply
intertwined with our lives, and so it’s natural to have strongly held
opinions about it.
Nonetheless, we all have to pay attention to how we behave in order to
keep things civil and fun. That means that we criticise ideas, not people;
that we start with the assumption that everyone is participating in good
faith, and we understand that the ambiguities and exigencies of online
communication can have inadvertent side effects.
We should never lose sight of what we have in common. This community is a
living example of how an incredibly diverse group of people can come
together and help one another.
Best wishes
Jeremy
Post by Ákos Szederjei
Dear Eric!
Who said YOU are not being able to resolve it, or YOU do not want too,
because
Post by Ákos Szederjei
other feature are deemed more important? Really...
The world is not revolving around you. This list is about TW and not
about
Post by Ákos Szederjei
your capabilities. What you do or want I could care less. It is not that
you
Post by Ákos Szederjei
will resolve the issue of the plug in on your own. If you are the sole
developer of this issue I profoundly apologise.
Talking about making stuff up? You claimed that the 4 step solution of
yours
Post by Ákos Szederjei
is the same as if the plug in is used. Really? I just closed a Tiddly in
old
Post by Ákos Szederjei
FF and it auto saved. The same, sure, and my microwaves make video
recordings...
Fortunately, I am not really dependent on the offline functionality for
my wiki.
Post by Ákos Szederjei
Your argumentation (or the lack of it) convinced me to switch now to
another
Post by Ákos Szederjei
wiki and not wait for a solution for TW' saving problem.
Good luck with your endeavour!
Ákos
Post by Ákos Szederjei
Post by Ákos Szederjei
I understand the technical difficulties, and it is ok not being able
to
Post by Ákos Szederjei
Post by Ákos Szederjei
Post by Ákos Szederjei
resolve
it, or even not wanting too, because other feature are deemed more
Post by Ákos Szederjei
important.
It's ok to disagree with what I wrote... but...
I never said ANYTHING about "not wanting to" or "deemed more important"
DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!
Just because you don't agree with my explanation does not mean you get
to
Post by Ákos Szederjei
Post by Ákos Szederjei
MAKE STUFF UP about what I said.
YOU ARE NOT DONALD TRUMP!
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A M Alfaro
2017-03-14 20:29:35 UTC
Permalink
Hi Josiah,

I might be an even more naïve user than yourself. I think it's safe to say
that the basic users of the world really don't think about making backups
of anything. At all. Ever. No matter how many, many, many times they are
told to do so. Just me speaking from the pov of being the most tech-savvy
person in my family. And one of the things I loved about TWClassic is that
it did that backup thing for you. So on the one hand, yeah, it isn't
necessarily a TW thing, but on the other it is because it originally had
that functionality built in and there's an expectation for it to continue.

I myself drifted away from TW during that period of not being able to
easily save via the browser and came back once TiddlyFox was available. I
use TW at work for project management, and need it to be easy to save. I
don't care how that is implemented. I've changed jobs and now only have
IE10 for a browser and was really worried I'd have to use Outlook for task
management (XP). I also don't have the ability to update anything without
Admin permission, so installing the IE tiddly addon felt like a huge win,
but I still get the save as dialog every so often. An approach like Eric's
is great for me (and one I hadn't thought of because I generally hate that
"(n)" thing). Also, because of TWClassic, I'm already used to deleting
extraneous files from my TW folders. That little backup folder could get
pretty full pretty quickly.

At the end of the day, I don't think the smoothness of saving is what's
going to keep TW from spreading to the masses. It's the documentation and
the learning curve. I kept away from TW5 because the $:\ notation seemed so
foreign to me at first. Then I got this job with no FireFox and was forced
to engage TW5. I was getting to know it via Cardo when IT updated my system
and broke it. I'm not sure why now but all I get on Cardo is the RSOD, but
I could still use vanilla TW5. This probably wasn't the best way to
approach learning, but now I'm building my own method of task management as
I go. The thing is I know none of my family and very few of my friends
would want to invest the time needed to learn TW and the multiple languages
associated with it. They would take one look at the editor UI when making
their first tiddler and would peace out. But then I don't think they're
Jeremy's audience anyway. This a creative tool for creative people who
enjoy tinkering. IMO anyway.

All of this is leading to my opinion that the simplest way to save should
probably be the only way to save and it's up to the user to make those
backups as with every doc on their computer. One button saving with backups
was nice, but I think it's time we let it go.

Peace,
Anita
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tejjyid
2017-03-14 04:08:25 UTC
Permalink
I develop my TW code inline; currently from a file, as there's a lot to do
handling the upgrade to TW5, but hopefully, in the future, from the browser
again. I would routinely save & reload a TW tens, and possibly hundreds of
times in a coding session. This is going to be an much more unpleasant
experience if I have to go back to the filesystem to open a new file after
every save, as well as delete the large number of old and dysfunctional
copies of the file which might be dangerous to leave around.

My yimao.

Andrew.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
*Here is a discussion I and Jeremy Ruston started, privately, on Twitter.
We realised that it could just as well be public in case anyone else wants
to read / comment ... *
*Josiah, 1... *
Are we all doomed to have to give up on simple download file-saving?
Do you know if the excellent TiddlyFox 2 will still work after the ominous
Firefox 57?
WHY do Mozilla take so LONG approving add-ons?
WHY do you keep TiddlyFox on Mozilla add-ons marked as "Experimental"?
Best wishes
Josiah
*Jeremy, 1...*
By “simple download file saving” do you mean the default fall back HTML 5
saver? I’ve no idea about Firefox 57. I’ve no idea why Mozilla do what they
do. I mark it experimental to save it going through Mozilla’s more rigorous
full review.
*Josiah, 2...*
Ciao Jeremy. I guess where I am coming from is as a "naive" user (well,
I'm pretending to be one & try stay in that skin a bit).
I'm trying to get my head round the stumbling blocks to better uptake of
TW.
No. On "saving" I mean what TiddlyFox does brilliantly, simply. Overwrite.
The fallback behaviour of save(1) save(2) is not viable, IMO, for most
folk.
On Mozilla ... on everything I read they are internally confident in what
they are doing ... just about everything else is like witnessing shooting
into the foot. It all gets too convoluted.
I now understand why you keep it "experimental". From a naive user point
of view its a slight put-off. I'm not sure but does the latest v1 still
work in FF 52. 57 is when they say they will go wholly WebExtensions: Firefox
57 - Compatability Milestone
<https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2017/02/16/the-road-to-firefox-57-compatibility-milestones/>
*Jeremy, 2...*
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki
stem from the single file architecture. It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most
people. The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those
problems melt away. Simple. If on the other hand, anyone wants the
considerable advantages of working offline without a server, well, then
TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the planet that can help them, and it comes
with a learning curve. That’s life.
*Jeremy, 3...*
My sense is that you are pushing to find a way for the standalone HTML
file experience to match the ease of use of an online service. I don’t
think that’s possible.
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Eric Shulman
2017-03-14 06:07:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by tejjyid
I develop my TW code inline; currently from a file, as there's a lot to do
handling the upgrade to TW5, but hopefully, in the future, from the browser
again. I would routinely save & reload a TW tens, and possibly hundreds of
times in a coding session. This is going to be an much more unpleasant
experience if I have to go back to the filesystem to open a new file after
every save, as well as delete the large number of old and dysfunctional
copies of the file which might be dangerous to leave around.
Your workflow always overwrites the index.html "tens, and possibly
hundreds" of times in a coding session. If that's how you prefer to work,
that's fine by me.

However, it's a bit like walking the high-wire without a net: if something
you just wrote causes a fatal error at load time (the dreaded RSOD),
correcting those changes could be very problematic, since you aren't
keeping backups along the way. Depending upon how much is changed with
each save, it might be a real headache to isolate the source of the fatal
error without having a nice "diff" of those changes to compare.

However... even with my suggested "download saver" workflow, you can
achieve the exact same "high-wire" results simply by always selecting the
base index.html to overwrite each time rather than creating additional
numbered 'checkpoint' saves.

Of course, this *does* add two actions to your existing workflow: a
double-click to select the "index.html" filename in the list and a
single-click to confirm the "are you sure?" popup, but I feel that this
adds a very minor inconvenience at worst, and provides a valuable 'sanity
check' before actually committing to a non-recoverable overwrite of the
primary work file.

In addition, after you have allowed the overwrite to proceed, the rest of
your existing workflow (i.e., reloading the saved file to test and continue
working) remains exactly the same: you reload the current document simply
by pressing the browser's reload command (ctrl-R or alt-f5 in Chrome).
There is absolutely no need to "go back to the filesystem" after ever save
and, since you aren't actually creating 'checkpoint' saves, there are also
no "old and dysfunctional" copies to clean up afterward.

Also note that if you DO choose to create 'checkpoint' saves along the way,
you still usually don't have to go back to the filesystem to open them,
since many browsers provide some kind "download status bar" output that
includes a button to quickly open the newly saved file with just one click.
Sure, you have to remember to clean out the left-over checkpoint files at
the end of your work session, but it is typically a very easy operation to
select the unwanted files (i.e., using shift-click to select the whole set
at once) and then pressing 'delete' (or dragging to the trash)... and if
you're using a command line environment (i.e., a Linux shell), then it's
even easier to clear out the files with just a single "rm index*(*).html"
command

enjoy,
-e
Eric Shulman
TiddlyTools: "Small Tools for Big Ideas" (tm)
InsideTiddlyWiki: The Missing Manuals
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tejjyid
2017-03-14 22:31:19 UTC
Permalink
Nothing I enjoy more than being patronised. Thanks for letting me know my
inconveniences are minor.

Cheers
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
*Here is a discussion I and Jeremy Ruston started, privately, on Twitter.
We realised that it could just as well be public in case anyone else wants
to read / comment ... *
*Josiah, 1... *
Are we all doomed to have to give up on simple download file-saving?
Do you know if the excellent TiddlyFox 2 will still work after the ominous
Firefox 57?
WHY do Mozilla take so LONG approving add-ons?
WHY do you keep TiddlyFox on Mozilla add-ons marked as "Experimental"?
Best wishes
Josiah
*Jeremy, 1...*
By “simple download file saving” do you mean the default fall back HTML 5
saver? I’ve no idea about Firefox 57. I’ve no idea why Mozilla do what they
do. I mark it experimental to save it going through Mozilla’s more rigorous
full review.
*Josiah, 2...*
Ciao Jeremy. I guess where I am coming from is as a "naive" user (well,
I'm pretending to be one & try stay in that skin a bit).
I'm trying to get my head round the stumbling blocks to better uptake of
TW.
No. On "saving" I mean what TiddlyFox does brilliantly, simply. Overwrite.
The fallback behaviour of save(1) save(2) is not viable, IMO, for most
folk.
On Mozilla ... on everything I read they are internally confident in what
they are doing ... just about everything else is like witnessing shooting
into the foot. It all gets too convoluted.
I now understand why you keep it "experimental". From a naive user point
of view its a slight put-off. I'm not sure but does the latest v1 still
work in FF 52. 57 is when they say they will go wholly WebExtensions: Firefox
57 - Compatability Milestone
<https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2017/02/16/the-road-to-firefox-57-compatibility-milestones/>
*Jeremy, 2...*
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki
stem from the single file architecture. It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most
people. The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those
problems melt away. Simple. If on the other hand, anyone wants the
considerable advantages of working offline without a server, well, then
TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the planet that can help them, and it comes
with a learning curve. That’s life.
*Jeremy, 3...*
My sense is that you are pushing to find a way for the standalone HTML
file experience to match the ease of use of an online service. I don’t
think that’s possible.
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Lost Admin
2017-03-15 20:05:12 UTC
Permalink
I don't actually know. I am allowed to use USB thumb drives, though. So it
is something to think about.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
*Here is a discussion I and Jeremy Ruston started, privately, on Twitter.
We realised that it could just as well be public in case anyone else wants
to read / comment ... *
*Josiah, 1... *
Are we all doomed to have to give up on simple download file-saving?
Do you know if the excellent TiddlyFox 2 will still work after the ominous
Firefox 57?
WHY do Mozilla take so LONG approving add-ons?
WHY do you keep TiddlyFox on Mozilla add-ons marked as "Experimental"?
Best wishes
Josiah
*Jeremy, 1...*
By “simple download file saving” do you mean the default fall back HTML 5
saver? I’ve no idea about Firefox 57. I’ve no idea why Mozilla do what they
do. I mark it experimental to save it going through Mozilla’s more rigorous
full review.
*Josiah, 2...*
Ciao Jeremy. I guess where I am coming from is as a "naive" user (well,
I'm pretending to be one & try stay in that skin a bit).
I'm trying to get my head round the stumbling blocks to better uptake of
TW.
No. On "saving" I mean what TiddlyFox does brilliantly, simply. Overwrite.
The fallback behaviour of save(1) save(2) is not viable, IMO, for most
folk.
On Mozilla ... on everything I read they are internally confident in what
they are doing ... just about everything else is like witnessing shooting
into the foot. It all gets too convoluted.
I now understand why you keep it "experimental". From a naive user point
of view its a slight put-off. I'm not sure but does the latest v1 still
work in FF 52. 57 is when they say they will go wholly WebExtensions: Firefox
57 - Compatability Milestone
<https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2017/02/16/the-road-to-firefox-57-compatibility-milestones/>
*Jeremy, 2...*
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki
stem from the single file architecture. It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most
people. The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those
problems melt away. Simple. If on the other hand, anyone wants the
considerable advantages of working offline without a server, well, then
TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the planet that can help them, and it comes
with a learning curve. That’s life.
*Jeremy, 3...*
My sense is that you are pushing to find a way for the standalone HTML
file experience to match the ease of use of an online service. I don’t
think that’s possible.
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tejjyid
2017-03-16 11:02:39 UTC
Permalink
I'll try again, but my posts keep getting deleted...if anyone can help me
that it'd be appreciated...

I don't think it's right to characterise the problems as being with the
single file architecture, because I don't really see TW as a single file
architecture, any more than Excel. TW is a program and a data file, as is
Excel. The difference is that the program for TW is called the browser. We
think about the TW program as being that part of the data in the file that
gets executed, but that's really analogous to VBA code.

*Program* -
File
Excel
Application functions
Enables VBA -
user code (VBA, formulas); data
File IO
Browser
Enables JS -
application functions (JS, macros, widgets); user code (ditto); data
?FIle IO?


The problem occurs because the TW driving program, the browser, is not
longer fit for purpose. If Excel stopped saving spreadsheets, that'd
obviously be a pretty major disaster. TW, though, doesn't control the
browser, so we have to take our lumps when it does stop saving.

I switched to using Firefox for TW (from Chrome) because of the extension
which allowed overwrite saves. The save(n+1) option is rubbish; I mean it's
doable, obviously, but it is not convenient. It's not a user-winning
experience. If that goes, I guess I'll switch to using Tiddlyfox, which
seems to be OK. It's the program TW controls which can run TW and also
save. It's a pity to lose the "elegance" of running with a program that is
already readily available, but in terms of offline user experience ,
downloading a program, installing it and running it is not a big challenge
for most people.

I think the future will be TFox for standalone; browser for online; Node
for the minority; offline browser for the rest, and I don't really see a
problem with that. It's more user-friendly, IMO, than running TW on top of
a database. No matter how hard people work to make the underlying
technology transparent, I think the extra complexity will eventually show
up. I don't think that's the right place to invest the technical talent.

Cheers, Andrew
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
*Here is a discussion I and Jeremy Ruston started, privately, on Twitter.
We realised that it could just as well be public in case anyone else wants
to read / comment ... *
*Josiah, 1... *
Are we all doomed to have to give up on simple download file-saving?
Do you know if the excellent TiddlyFox 2 will still work after the ominous
Firefox 57?
WHY do Mozilla take so LONG approving add-ons?
WHY do you keep TiddlyFox on Mozilla add-ons marked as "Experimental"?
Best wishes
Josiah
*Jeremy, 1...*
By “simple download file saving” do you mean the default fall back HTML 5
saver? I’ve no idea about Firefox 57. I’ve no idea why Mozilla do what they
do. I mark it experimental to save it going through Mozilla’s more rigorous
full review.
*Josiah, 2...*
Ciao Jeremy. I guess where I am coming from is as a "naive" user (well,
I'm pretending to be one & try stay in that skin a bit).
I'm trying to get my head round the stumbling blocks to better uptake of
TW.
No. On "saving" I mean what TiddlyFox does brilliantly, simply. Overwrite.
The fallback behaviour of save(1) save(2) is not viable, IMO, for most
folk.
On Mozilla ... on everything I read they are internally confident in what
they are doing ... just about everything else is like witnessing shooting
into the foot. It all gets too convoluted.
I now understand why you keep it "experimental". From a naive user point
of view its a slight put-off. I'm not sure but does the latest v1 still
work in FF 52. 57 is when they say they will go wholly WebExtensions: Firefox
57 - Compatability Milestone
<https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2017/02/16/the-road-to-firefox-57-compatibility-milestones/>
*Jeremy, 2...*
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki
stem from the single file architecture. It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most
people. The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those
problems melt away. Simple. If on the other hand, anyone wants the
considerable advantages of working offline without a server, well, then
TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the planet that can help them, and it comes
with a learning curve. That’s life.
*Jeremy, 3...*
My sense is that you are pushing to find a way for the standalone HTML
file experience to match the ease of use of an online service. I don’t
think that’s possible.
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A M Alfaro
2017-03-16 16:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Arlen,


I'm a part of the minority which cannot use USB sticks at work. Security
recognizes and blocks flash drives. The more restrictive my environment
becomes, the more I dread the day I can't even get TW at work. I tired to
email a copy of my project management wiki to myself at home and it was
blocked based on content and file size. I imagine one day I won't be able
to email myself an empty wiki from home to work, which is what I did to get
it last month. I could get to the website but couldn't download an empty
copy.

---

Andrew,


I think I get the analogy you're trying to make, but I believe the premise
is slightly off because Excel is a complete package, meaning it's designed
from top to bottom for all "parts" to work together. Tiddlywiki and the
browsers are not designed that way. The only way to solve that would be for
Jeremy to repackage the single file application as that "Excel"-type of
program. I don't know anything about the JSON side of TW, so it could be
that it provides this type of solution (?).


Also for clarification, TiddlyFox is just a FireFox addon that smooths the
user's saving experience. It isn't a tool being manipulated by TW which
seems to be how you're describing it. In fact, what you're describing as
the future of TW is already in trouble and continues to be TW's recurring
problem. Browser security continues to evolve in ways that close off the
function TW needs to smoothly save over itself. That elegance is at the
mercy of the browser developers.

----


I completely get that mine is an unpopular opinion but I'm not seeing any
way around it: Jeremy's fallback measure of using the Save dialog will
become the only available way of saving TW in the future. I don't think of
it as inelegant; I think TW users just aren't used to it and are loathe to
accept it. Like I said before, we got used to a different experience. We
have the expectation of it. Maybe it's time we reset our expectations on
this one thing? Is it truly so disruptive to the user experience? I don't
think so.

From my point of view, it's actually much easier now that TW "falls back"
to the Save dialog.

Peace,
Anita
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tejjyid
2017-03-20 09:32:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by A M Alfaro
Arlen,
I'm a part of the minority which cannot use USB sticks at work. Security
recognizes and blocks flash drives. The more restrictive my environment
becomes, the more I dread the day I can't even get TW at work. I tired to
email a copy of my project management wiki to myself at home and it was
blocked based on content and file size. I imagine one day I won't be able
to email myself an empty wiki from home to work, which is what I did to get
it last month. I could get to the website but couldn't download an empty
copy.
---
And
I think I get the analogy you're trying to make, but I believe the premise
is slightly off because Excel is a complete package, meaning it's designed
from top to bottom for all "parts" to work together. Tiddlywiki and the
browsers are not designed that way. The only way to solve that would be for
Jeremy to repackage the single file application as that "Excel"-type of
program. I don't know anything about the JSON side of TW, so it could be
that it provides this type of solution (?).
No - I haven't expressed myself clearly, but I think we actually agree. The
problem is that TW *isn't* a single-file architecture. It needs other
programs to support it, not just an OS. and now, increasingly those
programs don't. So I think the problem is deep.
Post by A M Alfaro
Also for clarification, TiddlyFox is just a FireFox addon that smooths the
user's saving experience. It isn't a tool being manipulated by TW which
seems to be how you're describing it. In fact, what you're describing as
the future of TW is already in trouble and continues to be TW's recurring
problem. Browser security continues to evolve in ways that close off the
function TW needs to smoothly save over itself. That elegance is at the
mercy of the browser developers.
My bad - I was thinking TiddlyDesk, but my fingers were thinking something
else. IMO TiddlyDesk is the only future of the so-called single-file TW.
Post by A M Alfaro
----
I completely get that mine is an unpopular opinion but I'm not seeing any
way around it: Jeremy's fallback measure of using the Save dialog will
become the only available way of saving TW in the future. I don't think of
it as inelegant; I think TW users just aren't used to it and are loathe to
accept it. Like I said before, we got used to a different experience. We
have the expectation of it. Maybe it's time we reset our expectations on
this one thing? Is it truly so disruptive to the user experience? I don't
think so.
From my point of view, it's actually much easier now that TW "falls back"
to the Save dialog.
Peace,
Anita
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-03-21 13:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Ciao tejjid and all ...
... The problem is that TW *isn't* a single-file architecture. It needs
other programs to support it, not just an OS. and now, increasingly those
programs don't. So I think the problem is deep.
I agree, in the sense that the mechanics of HOW you get TW to run/work do
matter.

Much of Jeremy's second statement, I keep referring to, implies that, I
think. He posits differential ways forward though. NOT one model (*I*
think).

That "contradiction" (is it?) between "self-contained" V. dependence on a
"run environment" for use is interesting ... ? I'm not so sure that
obviates "single-file architecture" per se.

Best wishes
Josiah
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-03-21 15:44:07 UTC
Permalink
I would like to add to this discussion this ...
*Overall, I’d like to see TiddlyWiki better serve the needs of multiple
audiences:*
* commercial services for general users
* easy Node.js app deployment for advanced DIY users
* continued support for the standalone configuration in the browser for
most DIY users
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Jed Carty
2017-03-21 16:07:12 UTC
Permalink
As far as the easy deployment of node.js apps goes, I am working on making
a control interface and data dashboard for my robot using tiddlywiki. The
robot runs in node so I have the same script running both tiddlywiki and
the robot. I set up bi-directional communication between the robot and the
browser. I am trying to make everything modular and easy to use so I am
hoping that it can help with the creation of other applications in the
future. My brother has some ideas for using this as a way to make
multi-user wikis but we haven't made any significant progress on that side
yet.

We are currently polishing the robot code in preparation for releasing it
as open source so it isn't available yet, but it hopefully will be soon. I
am going to be bringing a tiddlywiki controlled robot up to Oxford for the
meet up.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-03-21 16:56:35 UTC
Permalink
Jed

This is exactly IT.

Futures understanding.

Josiah, x
Post by Jed Carty
As far as the easy deployment of node.js apps goes, I am working on making
a control interface and data dashboard for my robot using tiddlywiki. The
robot runs in node so I have the same script running both tiddlywiki and
the robot. I set up bi-directional communication between the robot and the
browser. I am trying to make everything modular and easy to use so I am
hoping that it can help with the creation of other applications in the
future. My brother has some ideas for using this as a way to make
multi-user wikis but we haven't made any significant progress on that side
yet.
We are currently polishing the robot code in preparation for releasing it
as open source so it isn't available yet, but it hopefully will be soon. I
am going to be bringing a tiddlywiki controlled robot up to Oxford for the
meet up.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-03-22 22:52:36 UTC
Permalink
I'd like to add this from another thread. The point on this was about
different ways of solving a problem. Jed and I were discussing whether it
could be INTERNAL TW or EXTERNAL manipulation of a TW. Jeremy commented.
His main point is (I think) its not so much about technique as
CONCEPTUALISATION of what TW is. And in a BROAD concept of it comes more
freedom.

On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:17:16 UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

Another way to think about things is that TiddlyWiki lets you fairly
seamlessly switch between different perspectives/modalities in using the
* As an web app, experienced through the browser
* As a single, opaque file that can be emailed/Dropboxed/Slacked etc. as a
blob
* As a plain text file that can be backed up, edited, etc just like any
other text file
* As a fancy ZIP file that can contain multiple items
* As a standalone tool to process content elsewhere, for example to
generate a static, secondary representation of content for
publication/distribution
While the specific capability to perform bulk operations like search and
replace is useful, I think the real value is more conceptual: we can switch
between different ways of thinking about TiddlyWiki according to the task
we face.
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David Szego
2017-03-24 13:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Naieve but stupidly simple potential solution...

What if one of the Core Tiddlers was a Java web server running on
localhost, which the rest of the Core sync'd to?

Wouldn't that local Java web server have access to write files?
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Jeremy Ruston
2017-03-24 15:24:42 UTC
Permalink
Hi David
Post by David Szego
Naieve but stupidly simple potential solution...
What if one of the Core Tiddlers was a Java web server running on localhost, which the rest of the Core sync'd to?
Wouldn't that local Java web server have access to write files?
Substitute “JavaScript” for “Java” and that’s a pretty good description of TiddlyWiki running today under Node.js :)

Best wishes

Jeremy.
Post by David Szego
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David Szego
2017-03-24 16:23:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Substitute “JavaScript” for “Java” and that’s a pretty good description of
TiddlyWiki running today under Node.js :)
Understood, but to avoid the pain / inability to have every user install
Node everywhere they want TW, couldn't an embedded Java server do the same
thing, and remain self-contained?
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Jed Carty
2017-03-24 16:58:07 UTC
Permalink
The problem is that the single file version runs in the browser context and
that prevents it from accessing the file system, you need something to
bridge that which is what node does. Anything that is supposed to solve the
same problem would have to be external to the browser and would have the
same issues as node.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-04-01 16:26:55 UTC
Permalink
Having sat with this discussion a few days I'd like to ask ...

* Where are the commercial services?*

Best wishes
Josiah

@Jermolene wrote:
* commercial services for general users
* easy Node.js app deployment for advanced DIY users
* continued support for the standalone configuration in the browser for
most DIY users
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Mat
2017-04-01 18:16:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
* Where are the commercial services?*
Commercial services using TW? Or TW-hackers offering services to help out
with TW matters? Maybe even Where are all the service people who're
supposed to be making TW commercials? ;-) ;-)

<:-)
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-04-01 18:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Ciao Mat

In the sense that Mr Ruston means.

Josiah
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
* Where are the commercial services?*
Commercial services using TW? Or TW-hackers offering services to help out
with TW matters? Maybe even Where are all the service people who're
supposed to be making TW commercials? ;-) ;-)
<:-)
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Lost Admin
2017-04-05 13:58:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao Mat
In the sense that Mr Ruston means.
Josiah
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
* Where are the commercial services?*
Commercial services using TW? Or TW-hackers offering services to help out
with TW matters? Maybe even Where are all the service people who're
supposed to be making TW commercials? ;-) ;-)
<:-)
I am also a bit confused by the term commercial services. Both in where
they are and what Jeremy meant. Is tiddlyspot a "commercial service"? It's
a great service, but I think it's more community than commercial in that
from what I can tell, TiddlySpot is provided by community members for the
community.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-04-05 19:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Ciao LostAdmin & all ...

I think its worth coming back to what the initial post in this thread was
about...

I think Jeremy's central point (he originally made to me privately on
Twitter) was this ...

Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
stem from the single file architecture. It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most
people. The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those
problems melt away. Simple. If on the other hand, anyone wants the
considerable advantages of working offline without a server, well, then
TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the planet that can help them, and it comes
with a learning curve.
Elsewhere he also gave the, I think, *a useful, typology of users* ...

* commercial services for general users
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
* easy Node.js app deployment for advanced DIY users
* continued support for the standalone configuration in the browser for
most DIY users
I'm very interested in "most DIY" users, being one, though not really
competent yet, despite tying, so I fall between the classifications. I.e.
probably "Wants to be DIY, but maybe should be using only online services"
... :-)

Naturally flows from this is my interest in is what Jeremy is sensing about
the state of play, since he likely understands it better than anyone.

That was the (my) point in exploring "Voicing Futures".

*The issue IMO is not so much about the extant reality as a "conceptual
orientation" to the future in some way. *

Its better articulating that that interested me a lot.

TW seems difficult to form a full overview of. That is a lot to do with
what it can DO. The many ways it can work. I do think its a bit of a
barrier to entry. THAT is partly why Jeremy's comment "The simple fix is
to move it to an online service, when all those problems melt away" is so
interesting.

BUT what is meant here by "online service" is what I am trying to grasp
better.

I personally would NOT say that either "online" or "commercial" services
(are there any commercial ones yet?) are yet quite transparent enough or
obvious for "general users". Perhaps I am wrong?

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I am also a bit confused by the term commercial services. Both in where
they are and what Jeremy meant. Is tiddlyspot a "commercial service"?
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