Discussion:
[tw5] The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited
@TiddlyTweeter
2018-08-21 18:05:36 UTC
Permalink
I have come to the view that Google Groups are Actively Damaging TW uptake.

A major problem is that numbers increase so slowly they barely match
natural leave rates.

*There is something seriously wrong.*

It is NOT growing and it should be given the immense innovation that has
happened and how goodly flexible TW is now. It should be up there in the
100,000s.

This GG is one of the most unfriendly user environments. Its total lack of
tagging leaves the newbie with only ONE option: *hazard a question.* You
need stomach to get there. A new user should not need to ever feel like
that.

The fact that most every query gets well answered does not detract from the
fact that GG looked at before using is seriously confusing & intimidating.

In addition lot of the time you can't find stuff you know is there even if
you been here a long time already. It is a PITA to use.

My QUESTION is this: is it in TW's interest overall to continue with a
forum that (1) alienates new users and (2) creates hassle for regular
users? (3) Would the hassle of change be broadly welcomed?

Best wishes
Josiah
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-08-21 18:23:17 UTC
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One thing I forgot to mention was that GGs DO support two methods of post
classification. Tagging & Categories. But both require someone to
administrate them. However that could be part of an incremental change?
However that would be problematic for the large number of TW GG users on
email.
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Mark Kerrigan
2018-08-21 21:43:08 UTC
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I'm sure many others have a lot more eloquent thoughts about Google groups,
but as someone who doesn't visit a lot, I think there are a number of
problems with relying on Google groups, mostly it's dependent on Google
continuing to support Google groups (Google could one day decide to pull
the plug on it) and the problem of discoverability. I'm not interested in
reading every single post and although I tend to check in every once in
awhile, I find it in general the format of Google groups hard to follow. I
also think there is a lot of combined content with both TWC and TW5 that
creates a challenge with searching for other people's solutions to various
problems.

I think Google groups is better for smaller groups. I also agree the size
of the community is going to be limited by how many people are going to
have the time to put up with trying to navigate Google groups.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I have come to the view that Google Groups are Actively Damaging TW uptake.
A major problem is that numbers increase so slowly they barely match
natural leave rates.
*There is something seriously wrong.*
It is NOT growing and it should be given the immense innovation that has
happened and how goodly flexible TW is now. It should be up there in the
100,000s.
This GG is one of the most unfriendly user environments. Its total lack of
tagging leaves the newbie with only ONE option: *hazard a question.* You
need stomach to get there. A new user should not need to ever feel like
that.
The fact that most every query gets well answered does not detract from
the fact that GG looked at before using is seriously confusing &
intimidating.
In addition lot of the time you can't find stuff you know is there even if
you been here a long time already. It is a PITA to use.
My QUESTION is this: is it in TW's interest overall to continue with a
forum that (1) alienates new users and (2) creates hassle for regular
users? (3) Would the hassle of change be broadly welcomed?
Best wishes
Josiah
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h0p3
2018-08-22 01:40:46 UTC
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Agreed. I've been a daily user of TW for 2 years, and I've avoided this
forum until I couldn't. I really don't like using google groups for a bunch
of reasons.

I'm not sure how to replace this forum nicely. Where is the best place or
tool to go from here? Is there a systematic way to graft/categorize this
content into a different system?

Cliche as it may sound, I think the Arch Linux wiki is a strong example of
what good community-driven technical documentation should look like. I've
used that thing on almost every distribution I've used. I want one that
good for Tiddlywiki, but i have no idea how to do it (I'm sadly not
convinced TW is even the right tool for it just yet either). Lowering the
friction to translating the work in forums into technical documentation in
a long-term wiki seems like a great idea. I'm straight up a TW fanboi at
this point, so you'll need to correct my lack of objectivity.

This is a good community. I'm not sure how to enable it to grow into the
monster it deserves to be. I second the claim "*There is something
seriously wrong*." But, I think that about a lot of software. I'm also not
the best judge of why other people don't use it or don't wish to engage in
it. I'm not sure how to change it.
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Mohammad
2018-08-22 06:25:09 UTC
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What alternative do you propose?
A lot of very good stuff is buried in this forum and unfortunately it is
difficult to find, categorize and use!

-*Mohammad*
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Jeremy Ruston
2018-08-22 08:16:52 UTC
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This is a frequent topic of discussion and I hope we can improve things.

It’s worth pointing out that, though, that fixing this isn’t just a matter of spinning up a Heroku instance with a copy of Discourse. We need community infrastructure that is reliable, available, regularly backed up, properly maintained, handles our 13 year archive and has the means to deal with spam and abuse. None of that is impossible, but it’s way more work than just picking a piece of software and installing it somewhere
.

Best wishes

Jeremy.
Post by Mohammad
What alternative do you propose?
A lot of very good stuff is buried in this forum and unfortunately it is difficult to find, categorize and use!
-Mohammad
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Sylvain Naudin
2018-08-22 10:53:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Ruston
This is a frequent topic of discussion and I hope we can improve things.
It’s worth pointing out that, though, that fixing this isn’t just a matter
of spinning up a Heroku instance with a copy of Discourse. We need
community infrastructure that is reliable, available, regularly backed up,
properly maintained, handles our 13 year archive and has the means to deal
with spam and abuse. None of that is impossible, but it’s way more work
than just picking a piece of software and installing it somewhere
.
Best wishes
Jeremy.
Hi Jeremy,

I run the Discourse French Community Forum since 2015, so yes we can :)
I've transfert it in new instance twice and thanks to the backup fonction
of Discourse, it's really easy. You have just to install a new one and
import the last automatic backup.
Yes, there is regular new version, and it take little time to check server
and ssh it.

Also it's OK with french audience since there is few traffic. If we do
worldwide, we need a paid account I think for email notification (even more
if we configure Discourse to reply post directly from mail like GG).

About spam and abuse, I'm really surprising about Discourse ! It's really
impressive.

Cheers,
Sylvain
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Jeremy Ruston
2018-08-22 11:09:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Sylvain
Post by Sylvain Naudin
I run the Discourse French Community Forum since 2015, so yes we can :)
Indeed, it’s a very useful experiment and I’ve been watching with interest.
Post by Sylvain Naudin
I've transfert it in new instance twice and thanks to the backup fonction of Discourse, it's really easy. You have just to install a new one and import the last automatic backup.
It’s not so much that there be a technical mechanism for backups to be taken, we need a failsafe operating procedure whereby backups are taken and verified without relying entirely on the project team.
Post by Sylvain Naudin
Yes, there is regular new version, and it take little time to check server and ssh it.
Also it's OK with french audience since there is few traffic. If we do worldwide, we need a paid account I think for email notification (even more if we configure Discourse to reply post directly from mail like GG).
About spam and abuse, I'm really surprising about Discourse ! It's really impressive.
Discourse does seem to be the most widely used of the available off-the-shelf, open source replacements for Google Groups.

I’d certainly want the ability to work via email as we can with Google Groups. (One of the reasons that I like this feature is that it means that I have a complete, independent backup of all posts since 2005 that is easily searchable).

Best wishes

Jeremy.
Post by Sylvain Naudin
Cheers,
Sylvain
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Jeremy Ruston
2018-08-22 11:19:58 UTC
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Just to add another point about opportunity cost — if we were going to go to the trouble of setting up and operating a custom service for the TiddlyWiki community, then my first priority would not in fact be discussions, it would be to set up a proper plugin library that allowed easy third party submissions without requiring knowledge of GitHub.

“Plugin library” wouldn’t be a great description — it would be a repository of user uploaded plugins, snippets, tagged links, hints, etc. Ideally people would be able to use an API to post to the library directly from their own wikis.

( I am not suggesting that we shouldn’t replace Google Groups with something else, just that if it’s going to be DIY then I think there might be higher priorities for our limited reserve of DIY skills).

There have been discussions today about whether the logo is holding TiddlyWiki back, and now whether Google Groups is holding TiddlyWiki back. I can understand why both these topics are being discussed because they address daily irritations for many people. But, stepping back, I question whether these are the most important threats or opportunities facing us.

Best wishes

Jeremy
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Hi Sylvain
Post by Sylvain Naudin
I run the Discourse French Community Forum since 2015, so yes we can :)
Indeed, it’s a very useful experiment and I’ve been watching with interest.
Post by Sylvain Naudin
I've transfert it in new instance twice and thanks to the backup fonction of Discourse, it's really easy. You have just to install a new one and import the last automatic backup.
It’s not so much that there be a technical mechanism for backups to be taken, we need a failsafe operating procedure whereby backups are taken and verified without relying entirely on the project team.
Post by Sylvain Naudin
Yes, there is regular new version, and it take little time to check server and ssh it.
Also it's OK with french audience since there is few traffic. If we do worldwide, we need a paid account I think for email notification (even more if we configure Discourse to reply post directly from mail like GG).
About spam and abuse, I'm really surprising about Discourse ! It's really impressive.
Discourse does seem to be the most widely used of the available off-the-shelf, open source replacements for Google Groups.
I’d certainly want the ability to work via email as we can with Google Groups. (One of the reasons that I like this feature is that it means that I have a complete, independent backup of all posts since 2005 that is easily searchable).
Best wishes
Jeremy.
Post by Sylvain Naudin
Cheers,
Sylvain
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h0p3
2018-08-22 14:40:15 UTC
Permalink
That's a fine counter. If this is a matter of opportunity cost, I think
replacing the discussion infrastructure is a lower priority (even though
it's obviously an impediment).

Going back to my Arch example, the package management infrastructure is
what makes it work in the first place. Finding effective ways to
semi-centralize the body of packages that allow people to customize vanilla
TWs is a more direct contribution to TW in both the short and longterm.
Right now, I have to use spider around this forum and usually rely upon
google through a lot of noise to find anything I want to install in TW.

What is necessary for this repository infrastructure?
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Just to add another point about opportunity cost — if we were going to go
to the trouble of setting up and operating a custom service for the
TiddlyWiki community, then my first priority would not in fact be
discussions, it would be to set up a proper plugin library that allowed
easy third party submissions without requiring knowledge of GitHub.
“Plugin library” wouldn’t be a great description — it would be a
repository of user uploaded plugins, snippets, tagged links, hints, etc.
Ideally people would be able to use an API to post to the library directly
from their own wikis.
( I am not suggesting that we shouldn’t replace Google Groups with
something else, just that if it’s going to be DIY then I think there might
be higher priorities for our limited reserve of DIY skills).
There have been discussions today about whether the logo is holding
TiddlyWiki back, and now whether Google Groups is holding TiddlyWiki back.
I can understand why both these topics are being discussed because they
address daily irritations for many people. But, stepping back, I question
whether these are the most important threats or opportunities facing us.
Best wishes
Jeremy
Hi Sylvain
I run the Discourse French Community Forum since 2015, so yes we can :)
Indeed, it’s a very useful experiment and I’ve been watching with interest.
I've transfert it in new instance twice and thanks to the backup fonction
of Discourse, it's really easy. You have just to install a new one and
import the last automatic backup.
It’s not so much that there be a technical mechanism for backups to be
taken, we need a failsafe operating procedure whereby backups are taken and
verified without relying entirely on the project team.
Yes, there is regular new version, and it take little time to check server and ssh it.
Also it's OK with french audience since there is few traffic. If we do
worldwide, we need a paid account I think for email notification (even more
if we configure Discourse to reply post directly from mail like GG).
About spam and abuse, I'm really surprising about Discourse ! It's really impressive.
Discourse does seem to be the most widely used of the available
off-the-shelf, open source replacements for Google Groups.
I’d certainly want the ability to work via email as we can with Google
Groups. (One of the reasons that I like this feature is that it means that
I have a complete, independent backup of all posts since 2005 that is
easily searchable).
Best wishes
Jeremy.
Cheers,
Sylvain
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@TiddlyTweeter
2018-08-25 19:08:36 UTC
Permalink
... if we were going to go to the trouble of setting up and operating a
custom service for the TiddlyWiki community, then my first priority would
not in fact be discussions, it would be to set up a proper plugin library
that allowed easy third party submissions without requiring knowledge of
GitHub.
I do think that "Gifford's List" has really proved the point that
*centralised* effort is needed to harvest and administer the several
hundred TW resources he's listed already. His TiddlyToolmap effort has
brought together things I was only vaguely aware of and others I had no
idea existed. It shows that its important to have a central listing.

I would like he was NOT the only person lumbered with the job.

Josiah
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-08-26 23:04:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I would like he was NOT the only person lumbered with the job.
Dynalist does allow a user to appoint collaborators.

-- Mark
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Mat
2018-08-22 15:01:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Ruston
It’s worth pointing out that, though, that fixing this isn’t just a matter
of spinning up a Heroku instance with a copy of Discourse. We need
community infrastructure that is reliable, available, regularly backed up,
properly maintained, handles our 13 year archive and has the means to deal
with spam and abuse. None of that is impossible, but it’s way more work
than just picking a piece of software and installing it somewhere
.
IMO we don't need that full set up right away but rather a system that has
the potential to fulfill all those points.

<:-)
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Mat
2018-08-22 15:27:46 UTC
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While I agree that GG is insufficient here's a note to everyone thinking
"I'm going to set up a super solution!"

*DON'T WASTE YOUR AND OUR TIME*

I say this out of *respect* for your time (and everyone elses).

Why? OK, let me refine my statement:

You might have a really great solution, but before you invite people to it,
ensure that your solution is endorsed by AT LEAST Jeremy. For obvious
reasons, he is the foremost expert and decision maker on TW so wherever he
posts and hangs out, that is where the developers will hang out. There have
alread been several attempts made that, AFAICT, didn't gain any traction.
Further, for people to go to, or sign up for, a forum they must find it.
I.e it must be "marketed" continuously and while TW is 100% open source,
the tiddlywiki.com domain is not and that is currently the only relevant
place where a forum can be "advertised" unless you want to consistently
talk about it (...here, ironically).

IMO, any attempt that disregards these aspects is merely making things
*worse* by splitting up community attention and dispersing where to find
discussions.

So, please; don't waste your and our time.


Just my well-meaning opinion based on 10+ years of experience with this
community.

<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-08-22 15:56:52 UTC
Permalink
Ah ... so you've noticed the pattern?

-- Mark
Post by Mat
While I agree that GG is insufficient here's a note to everyone thinking
"I'm going to set up a super solution!"
*DON'T WASTE YOUR AND OUR TIME*
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-08-22 15:56:02 UTC
Permalink
All we need is a "sanctioned" wiki (not TW) that provides pointers and
meta information re discussions in the Guugle group. Then the group can
continue, with the difference being that multiple participants can help
organize secondary discussions, referrals and refinements related to GG
discussions. All the rest of the infrastructure can continue as it is.

-- Mark
Post by Mat
Post by Jeremy Ruston
It’s worth pointing out that, though, that fixing this isn’t just a
matter of spinning up a Heroku instance with a copy of Discourse. We need
community infrastructure that is reliable, available, regularly backed up,
properly maintained, handles our 13 year archive and has the means to deal
with spam and abuse. None of that is impossible, but it’s way more work
than just picking a piece of software and installing it somewhere
.
IMO we don't need that full set up right away but rather a system that has
the potential to fulfill all those points.
<:-)
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Mat
2018-08-22 17:52:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
All we need is a "sanctioned" wiki (not TW) that provides pointers and
meta information re discussions in the Guugle group.
Why specifically not a TW? (or what do you mean with sanctioned?)

I do hope that we eventually have a TW based system for this because it
would (1) be awesome that anyone could customize it himself and (2) be
awesome *per se*.

....

Possibly relevant for this discussion is Beaker Browser
<https://beakerbrowser.com>. I note they now also have a windows installer.
As you know, Beaker Browser is an experimental browser that enables anyone
to publish stuff straight onto the internet directly from their computer -
no server needed. One compromise is that it doesn't use the http protocol
but instead a special other protocol which is why you need the special
browser. BTW, they've put up some videos on their site. This one gets
interesting at 21:20



<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-08-22 18:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Don't let the *awesome* become the enemy of the *real*.

TW wasn't meant to be a robust, multi-user wiki. There are plenty of Wiki's
out there whose developers have years of experience with the concerns and
perils of creating web-ready wiki applications. Chasing after TW-based
solutions is a rabbit hole that we don't have to go down just because the
idea is neat. We already know that TW has problems scaling, so if the idea
is to provide a massive index to TW solutions, wouldn't it be better to use
a tool made for the job?

It doesn't take away from the utility of TW just because it's not the best
choice for some other job.

Consider that all the code for TW is kept on GitHub. Hey! Wouldn't it be
neat to store it all inside a TW file! Just add version control, multi-user
configuration, and you're done! Who needs GH!

By sanctioned, it's like you said -- Jeremy has to approve it and provide
direction to it prominently at TiddlyWiki.com.

-- Mark
Post by Mat
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
All we need is a "sanctioned" wiki (not TW) that provides pointers and
meta information re discussions in the Guugle group.
Why specifically not a TW? (or what do you mean with sanctioned?)
I do hope that we eventually have a TW based system for this because it
would (1) be awesome that anyone could customize it himself and (2) be
awesome *per se*.
....
Possibly relevant for this discussion is Beaker Browser
<https://beakerbrowser.com>. I note they now also have a windows
installer. As you know, Beaker Browser is an experimental browser that
enables anyone to publish stuff straight onto the internet directly from
their computer - no server needed. One compromise is that it doesn't use
the http protocol but instead a special other protocol which is why you
need the special browser. BTW, they've put up some videos on their site.
This one gets interesting at 21:20 http://youtu.be/rJ_WvfF3FN8
<:-)
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Mat
2018-08-22 18:44:54 UTC
Permalink
TW wasn't meant to be a robust, multi-user wiki [...] Chasing after
TW-based solutions is a rabbit hole that we don't have to go down just
because the idea is neat. We already know that TW has problems scaling, so
if the idea is to provide a massive index to TW solutions, wouldn't it be
better to use a tool made for the job?
Well, I was referring to what the end user interfaces with. The underlying
backend can be whatever-it-takes. We saw one system in TiddlySpace but it
could be any backend DB + distribution system but with an interfacing TW
layer for the end user. TW is just a web page. Particularly if we're
talking about distributing loose, i.e individual, tiddlers. Or am I
fundamentally misunderstanding something?


Consider that all the code for TW is kept on GitHub. Hey! Wouldn't it be
neat to store it all inside a TW file! Just add version control, multi-user
configuration, and you're done! Who needs GH!
Irony? But since you use this example; My point is that GH could be the
underlying db, even hosting discussion posts, including an interfacing TW
for the end user. No small coding project ;-)
By sanctioned, it's like you said -- Jeremy has to approve it and provide
direction to it prominently at TiddlyWiki.com.
Ah, yes.


<:-)
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Mat
2018-08-22 18:49:10 UTC
Permalink
Want. Eat. Dog Food.

<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-08-22 21:01:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mat
Well, I was referring to what the end user interfaces with. The underlying
backend can be whatever-it-takes. We saw one system in TiddlySpace but it
could be any backend DB + distribution system but with an interfacing TW
layer for the end user. TW is just a web page. Particularly if we're
talking about distributing loose, i.e individual, tiddlers. Or am I
fundamentally misunderstanding something?
So, you're suggesting a non-existent database interface system? I haven't
seen any use of TW as a front-end. My understanding is that in all cases,
even with lazy-loading, all the tiddlers have to come over when you load a
page. Imagine loading the title of every wikipedia entry when you're
looking up "anteater". If there's some other technology that works with TW,
then it hasn't been advertised much.

Oh well. It's all pretty academic.

-- Mark
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Mat
2018-08-22 22:10:23 UTC
Permalink
So there is already

- Bob <https://github.com/OokTech/TW5-Bob> and singleexec
<https://github.com/OokTech/TW5-SingleExecutable>
- NoteSelf <https://noteself.github.io/>
- TiddlyWeb <https://tiddlywiki.com/#TiddlyWeb> (which the now shut down
TiddlySpace used)

..that all could probably function as parts(!) in either discussion systems
or other collaborative knowledge bases, because they are scaleable and can
all serve single tiddlers (I think).

In my "don't waste your time" post above I didn't bring up the (single)
route that I think can bypass the mentioned difficulties in setting up a
new forum simply because I'm afraid I'd annoy people by constantly
returning to it... but, since we're touching it now; TWederation would save
us all ;-)

What I mean is that if the discussion system was well integrated in the TW *that
one uses anyway*, then the user base could grow very organically becaue it
would be *so very accessible*. In federated wikis you author your posts in
your own TW - be they discussion posts or whatever - and just leave them
there for subscribers to fetch! This setup would not need promotion in the
same sense as "external" solutions because once you install it (e.g a
plugin) it is *there*. No need to go places every time. (Who knows, it
might even make it into standard distro comparable to the TiddlySpot saver.
This would propel TW into a completely new game!)

Now, consider that the main brain behind the first rendition of TWederation
is none other than the Jedi master currently master minding Boba Fett...

<:-)
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PMario
2018-08-22 19:34:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
TW wasn't meant to be a robust, multi-user wiki. There are plenty of
Wiki's out there whose developers have years of experience with the
concerns and perils of creating web-ready wiki applications. Chasing after
TW-based solutions is a rabbit hole that we don't have to go down just
because the idea is neat.
We already know that TW has problems scaling, so if the idea is to provide
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
a massive index to TW solutions, wouldn't it be better to use a tool made
for the job?
IMO that's wrong. We used to have TiddlySpace which scaled perfectly well.
... The problem is, that it has been shut down.

The TW concept scales, if bags and recipes would be a thing.. We have no
solution at the moment, that implements the TW "bags" and "recipes"
mechanism. With these elements we would be good to go. ...
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
It doesn't take away from the utility of TW just because it's not the best
choice for some other job.
Consider that all the code for TW is kept on GitHub.
Hey! Wouldn't it be neat to store it all inside a TW file!
Just add version control, multi-user configuration, and you're done!
You are right.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Who needs GH!
Developers.

As Mat mentioned, the DAT-project may be a "non-dev" possibility here. ...
I'm exploring it since quite some time, but don't have something to show
that works with the latest version.

I do have a video that shows how TW worked with an alpha API
*which doesn't exist anymore*.
Beaker Version 0.8.0 should have the same possibilities again. But some
work will be needed to adjust the experimental code to the new API.

Just my thoughts.

have fun!
mario
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David Gifford
2018-10-10 21:08:58 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jeremy

Below in this thread, TiddlyTweeter and Mark S mention the idea of me
inviting others to contribute to the TiddlyWiki toolmap.

I would be open to inviting select people to be able to edit the toolmap
section of my Dynalist account. In fact, I could copy and paste my own
version in another part of my account so that I can keep my own, personal
version, and let the others edit as they wish with the 'official' version
at the current URL.

Is this something you would like me to do, as an interim solution for the
TW community? If so, who would you recommend to be editors/contributors? I
think I would prefer your recommendations on this.

While on the subject, will you ever link to the toolmap from
tiddlywiki.com? If not, then perhaps this is not worth the effort.

Blessings

Dave
Post by Jeremy Ruston
This is a frequent topic of discussion and I hope we can improve things.
It’s worth pointing out that, though, that fixing this isn’t just a matter
of spinning up a Heroku instance with a copy of Discourse. We need
community infrastructure that is reliable, available, regularly backed up,
properly maintained, handles our 13 year archive and has the means to deal
with spam and abuse. None of that is impossible, but it’s way more work
than just picking a piece of software and installing it somewhere
.
Best wishes
Jeremy.
What alternative do you propose?
A lot of very good stuff is buried in this forum and unfortunately it is
difficult to find, categorize and use!
-*Mohammad*
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Jeremy Ruston
2018-10-11 08:36:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dave
Below in this thread, TiddlyTweeter and Mark S mention the idea of me inviting others to contribute to the TiddlyWiki toolmap.
I would be open to inviting select people to be able to edit the toolmap section of my Dynalist account. In fact, I could copy and paste my own version in another part of my account so that I can keep my own, personal version, and let the others edit as they wish with the 'official' version at the current URL.
Is this something you would like me to do, as an interim solution for the TW community? If so, who would you recommend to be editors/contributors? I think I would prefer your recommendations on this.
It would be great to open up the toolmap to other editors. Why not ask for volunteers? I suspect that the optimum number of editors is quite small, 2 or 3 people, to make it easy to coordinate the work.
While on the subject, will you ever link to the toolmap from tiddlywiki.com? If not, then perhaps this is not worth the effort.
Ah, I'm afraid I had no idea it was not linked. I don't tend to focus on compiling links for tw.com because it's something that many other people in the community can do, and I try to focus on the tasks for which I'm the blocker. I'm travelling today but if someone can submit a PR I'll be happy to merge it.

Best wishes

Jeremy
Blessings
Dave
Post by Jeremy Ruston
This is a frequent topic of discussion and I hope we can improve things.
It’s worth pointing out that, though, that fixing this isn’t just a matter of spinning up a Heroku instance with a copy of Discourse. We need community infrastructure that is reliable, available, regularly backed up, properly maintained, handles our 13 year archive and has the means to deal with spam and abuse. None of that is impossible, but it’s way more work than just picking a piece of software and installing it somewhere
.
Best wishes
Jeremy.
Post by Mohammad
What alternative do you propose?
A lot of very good stuff is buried in this forum and unfortunately it is difficult to find, categorize and use!
-Mohammad
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David Gifford
2018-10-11 13:53:16 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Jeremy for your feedback. Happy travels!
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Hi Dave
Below in this thread, TiddlyTweeter and Mark S mention the idea of me
inviting others to contribute to the TiddlyWiki toolmap.
I would be open to inviting select people to be able to edit the toolmap
section of my Dynalist account. In fact, I could copy and paste my own
version in another part of my account so that I can keep my own, personal
version, and let the others edit as they wish with the 'official' version
at the current URL.
Is this something you would like me to do, as an interim solution for the
TW community? If so, who would you recommend to be editors/contributors? I
think I would prefer your recommendations on this.
It would be great to open up the toolmap to other editors. Why not ask for
volunteers? I suspect that the optimum number of editors is quite small, 2
or 3 people, to make it easy to coordinate the work.
While on the subject, will you ever link to the toolmap from
tiddlywiki.com? If not, then perhaps this is not worth the effort.
Ah, I'm afraid I had no idea it was not linked. I don't tend to focus on
compiling links for tw.com because it's something that many other people
in the community can do, and I try to focus on the tasks for which I'm the
blocker. I'm travelling today but if someone can submit a PR I'll be happy
to merge it.
Best wishes
Jeremy
Blessings
Dave
Post by Jeremy Ruston
This is a frequent topic of discussion and I hope we can improve things.
It’s worth pointing out that, though, that fixing this isn’t just a
matter of spinning up a Heroku instance with a copy of Discourse. We need
community infrastructure that is reliable, available, regularly backed up,
properly maintained, handles our 13 year archive and has the means to deal
with spam and abuse. None of that is impossible, but it’s way more work
than just picking a piece of software and installing it somewhere
.
Best wishes
Jeremy.
What alternative do you propose?
A lot of very good stuff is buried in this forum and unfortunately it is
difficult to find, categorize and use!
-*Mohammad*
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-10-12 16:48:20 UTC
Permalink
Here we go. Maybe @David will want to check it out:

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/3478

-- Mark
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Ah, I'm afraid I had no idea it was not linked. I don't tend to focus on
compiling links for tw.com because it's something that many other people
in the community can do, and I try to focus on the tasks for which I'm the
blocker. I'm travelling today but if someone can submit a PR I'll be happy
to merge it.
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David Gifford
2018-10-12 18:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, that's fine. TiddlyWiki Toolmap. Description can be, A topical index
of known plugins, tutorials, themes, and other helpful tools for TiddlyWiki.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/3478
-- Mark
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Ah, I'm afraid I had no idea it was not linked. I don't tend to focus on
compiling links for tw.com because it's something that many other people
in the community can do, and I try to focus on the tasks for which I'm the
blocker. I'm travelling today but if someone can submit a PR I'll be happy
to merge it.
--
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-10-12 18:45:25 UTC
Permalink
Updated description.
Post by David Gifford
Yeah, that's fine. TiddlyWiki Toolmap. Description can be, A topical index
of known plugins, tutorials, themes, and other helpful tools for TiddlyWiki.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/3478
-- Mark
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Ah, I'm afraid I had no idea it was not linked. I don't tend to focus on
compiling links for tw.com because it's something that many other
people in the community can do, and I try to focus on the tasks for which
I'm the blocker. I'm travelling today but if someone can submit a PR I'll
be happy to merge it.
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TonyM
2018-08-22 08:21:30 UTC
Permalink
*I believe I have the answer, *

Based on a lot of experience including building a 2-4K membership to 45K
membership network.

*It is a micro-blogging platform, a social media tool, a forum and includes
documents (multiple people can edit at once) and links, with groups like
micro-sites.*

Yet this is quite a complex issue for many needs, and no tool may be
perfect but if you do not try my suggestion how do you know?

Yammer also has come conceptual differences so please maintain an open mind
until you understand what it is, I will know people are "giving it a go" if
they ask Questions, I will monitor it and help anyone.

Let me point out I have invited you all to test out Yammer
at https://www.yammer.com/tiddlywiki/ just visit this site and request an
invitation with your preferred email address. It may take up to 18 hours to
process unless you are in my Australian time zone, for me to respond (as in
the Case with Google Groups)

We now have 19 members, but little or no activity. Since no one is trying
it, how can we even discuss the pros and cons.

From the outset, I think this will be great for the community including the
ability to embed discussion groups, in your read only WIkis online. A great
feedback method but since conversations take place in the network all other
community members can help each other. I have anticipated many of the
issues that may be raised and have answers.

However I am offering this for free and hoping we get some organic growth
because helping you all, will be a high enough commitment, I am not going
to argue with people who have criticisms without actually trying to learn
about it first.

Regards
Tony
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b***@gmail.com
2018-08-25 22:36:37 UTC
Permalink
Tony,
Let me point out I have invited you all to test out Yammer at
https://www.yammer.com/tiddlywiki/ just visit this site and request an
invitation with your preferred email address. It may take up to 18 hours to
process unless you are in my Australian time zone, for me to respond (as in
the Case with Google Groups)
Post by TonyM
We now have 19 members, but little or no activity. Since no one is trying
it, how can we even discuss the pros and cons.
My apologies Tony, I had noticed your thread on what you started on
Yammer, just haven'thad the time-- tryin to finish projects before my
surgery. If all goes well, I could stop acting like a doomed soul and get
to other things. I'm about to post what I hope will be a litle but of a
contribution back to the community.
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Jed Carty
2018-08-22 10:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Well, my biggest problem with Yammer is that I can't see anything without
creating an account and to make an account I have to request access, so I
guess when I get access I can say more about it, but not being publicly
accessible is a huge problem for me. If I am contributing to a public
project I would prefer that it is publicly accessible.

One alternative to finding a new forum is to make a publicly accessible
wiki where editors post the answers to questions here. I don't think that
searching through a forum is a particularly effective method of archiving
documentation help. I think that the forum in addition to a curated wiki
would be a better solution. We could set up a server with the online
version of Bob and have a group of editors who are responsible for updating
it. There have been a number of good attempts at one person doing this but
it should be a group effort so that no one person being unavailable
prevents it from working. This would require a server that can run node, a
url for it to be accessible on and some people to be editors for it.
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TonyM
2018-08-22 10:24:25 UTC
Permalink
Jed

I belive I can make it not require the invite step. I was just setting it up to evaluate.

Regards
Tony
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Jed Carty
2018-08-22 15:02:01 UTC
Permalink
If we are willing to have the plugin server require more than a static file
server than the twederation extensions I am working on for Bob should work.

I already have wikis being served by Bob on a public facing server and it
is working without trouble. I am currently working on a way for a wiki to
send a POST to that server and get a list of available plugins and then
request a plugin from that list from the server. There are going to be some
more pieces than that to allow access control but that is the general idea.

Going the other way a person could get an account on the server and then
submit content to it using the same thing.

The server would need to run on node but I don't think there is any reason
that the wikis that connect to it would need to be anything special. A
single file wiki running locally should have no trouble connecting.

My hope is that we can set up a server that can act as the public
repository for plugins and code snippets. The biggest problem I have right
now is the social aspects of it. The server is going to require
administration and moderation and it really should be run by someone who is
more consistent than I am. From my experiments with Bob something like a
digital ocean droplet is more than powerful enough to work as the server.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2018-08-22 16:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Have you gotten to the point that you are willing to let multiple
participants connect and make updates to your web-Bob ? It would be
interesting to see how it works under stress. I'm curious how it deals with
concurrency.

I know when posting on GG my post often occurs within a minute or two of
someone else's. So concurrency happens. Or doesn't.

The other issue is security -- mostly about takeovers and spam. I suppose
it doesn't have to be as hardened as portals to private info would.

Let me know if you need moderation help.

-- Mark
Post by Jed Carty
If we are willing to have the plugin server require more than a static
file server than the twederation extensions I am working on for Bob should
work.
I already have wikis being served by Bob on a public facing server and it
is working without trouble. I am currently working on a way for a wiki to
send a POST to that server and get a list of available plugins and then
request a plugin from that list from the server. There are going to be some
more pieces than that to allow access control but that is the general idea.
Going the other way a person could get an account on the server and then
submit content to it using the same thing.
The server would need to run on node but I don't think there is any reason
that the wikis that connect to it would need to be anything special. A
single file wiki running locally should have no trouble connecting.
My hope is that we can set up a server that can act as the public
repository for plugins and code snippets. The biggest problem I have right
now is the social aspects of it. The server is going to require
administration and moderation and it really should be run by someone who is
more consistent than I am. From my experiments with Bob something like a
digital ocean droplet is more than powerful enough to work as the server.
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Jed Carty
2018-08-22 16:00:44 UTC
Permalink
Mark,

Is there a reason that Bob wouldn't work for this?
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Jed Carty
2018-08-22 19:02:56 UTC
Permalink
Mark S,

I currently have 3 people who use the version of Bob I have hosted for
Ooktech. The concern there isn't that it isn't ready to have people use it,
it is that it wouldn't be a good idea to have just me in change of that and
to host a community project on ooktech's test server.

If people want guest login's and a wiki that everyone can play around on I
can probably set that up, I have to make sure it is ok with the people I
work with first though. The biggest reservations brought up in the past is
that we don't like the idea of hosting content for other people because
that easily leads to uncomfortable situations.

Of course I have considered security, I wouldn't use it otherwise. Spam
shouldn't be a big issue because you have to be logged in to modify
anything (or view private wikis). It uses the same security for
authorisation and access that should be standard on any secure part of the
internet.
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Diego Mesa
2018-08-22 19:17:46 UTC
Permalink
Noteself uses Discourse forum software, and its the most
successful non-official TW place I've come across.
Post by Jed Carty
Mark S,
I currently have 3 people who use the version of Bob I have hosted for
Ooktech. The concern there isn't that it isn't ready to have people use it,
it is that it wouldn't be a good idea to have just me in change of that and
to host a community project on ooktech's test server.
If people want guest login's and a wiki that everyone can play around on I
can probably set that up, I have to make sure it is ok with the people I
work with first though. The biggest reservations brought up in the past is
that we don't like the idea of hosting content for other people because
that easily leads to uncomfortable situations.
Of course I have considered security, I wouldn't use it otherwise. Spam
shouldn't be a big issue because you have to be logged in to modify
anything (or view private wikis). It uses the same security for
authorisation and access that should be standard on any secure part of the
internet.
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Jed Carty
2018-08-22 21:14:44 UTC
Permalink
I believe that note self uses couchdb as the database back-end and I
believe changes the tiddlers in the wiki dynamically. Bob can dynamically
load or unload tiddlers or even wikis after they are loaded. So it is very
possible and there are at least two cases where something other than
loading everything at the page load happens. I hope, given the amount of
time put into both note self, Bob and the related plugins that it isn't
just an academic exercise.
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Zachary Storer
2018-10-10 03:09:06 UTC
Permalink
I think that this is an important post. Also note that as of Oct 9th, 2018
Google is discontinuing Google Plus.
This could also happen with Google Groups as well; you never know. So there
are a variety of reasons I think
to switch to another platform.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I have come to the view that Google Groups are Actively Damaging TW uptake.
A major problem is that numbers increase so slowly they barely match
natural leave rates.
*There is something seriously wrong.*
It is NOT growing and it should be given the immense innovation that has
happened and how goodly flexible TW is now. It should be up there in the
100,000s.
This GG is one of the most unfriendly user environments. Its total lack of
tagging leaves the newbie with only ONE option: *hazard a question.* You
need stomach to get there. A new user should not need to ever feel like
that.
The fact that most every query gets well answered does not detract from
the fact that GG looked at before using is seriously confusing &
intimidating.
In addition lot of the time you can't find stuff you know is there even if
you been here a long time already. It is a PITA to use.
My QUESTION is this: is it in TW's interest overall to continue with a
forum that (1) alienates new users and (2) creates hassle for regular
users? (3) Would the hassle of change be broadly welcomed?
Best wishes
Josiah
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Zachary Storer
2018-10-10 03:11:49 UTC
Permalink
Heh, speaking of which, there was a glitch with Google Groups when posting
via my cell phone connection,
so I have multiple copies of the same post here. Sorry 'bou
Post by Zachary Storer
I think that this is an important post. Also note that as of Oct 9th, 2018
Google is discontinuing Google Plus.
This could also happen with Google Groups as well; you never know. So
there are a variety of reasons I think
to switch to another platform.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I have come to the view that Google Groups are Actively Damaging TW uptake.
A major problem is that numbers increase so slowly they barely match
natural leave rates.
*There is something seriously wrong.*
It is NOT growing and it should be given the immense innovation that has
happened and how goodly flexible TW is now. It should be up there in the
100,000s.
This GG is one of the most unfriendly user environments. Its total lack
of tagging leaves the newbie with only ONE option: *hazard a question.*
You need stomach to get there. A new user should not need to ever feel like
that.
The fact that most every query gets well answered does not detract from
the fact that GG looked at before using is seriously confusing &
intimidating.
In addition lot of the time you can't find stuff you know is there even
if you been here a long time already. It is a PITA to use.
My QUESTION is this: is it in TW's interest overall to continue with a
forum that (1) alienates new users and (2) creates hassle for regular
users? (3) Would the hassle of change be broadly welcomed?
Best wishes
Josiah
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Zachary Storer
2018-10-10 03:14:19 UTC
Permalink
It should read 'Sorry about that'.
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TonyM
2018-10-10 05:31:27 UTC
Permalink
Zachary,

Whilst it is possible Google Groups will be dumped it is an altogether
different Creature to Google Plus, and I suspect very UN-likely to go the
way of the Dodo bird. Google Groups are really only mailing lists with a
web Interface where as Google+ was Googles social media environment. Never
the less we have had extensive conversations here about alternatives and I
in particular have proposed and have running such alternatives
as https://www.yammer.com/tiddlywiki

Regards
Tony
Post by Zachary Storer
I think that this is an important post. Also note that as of Oct 9th, 2018
Google is discontinuing Google Plus.
This could also happen with Google Groups as well; you never know. So
there are a variety of reasons I think
to switch to another platform.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I have come to the view that Google Groups are Actively Damaging TW uptake.
A major problem is that numbers increase so slowly they barely match
natural leave rates.
*There is something seriously wrong.*
It is NOT growing and it should be given the immense innovation that has
happened and how goodly flexible TW is now. It should be up there in the
100,000s.
This GG is one of the most unfriendly user environments. Its total lack
of tagging leaves the newbie with only ONE option: *hazard a question.*
You need stomach to get there. A new user should not need to ever feel like
that.
The fact that most every query gets well answered does not detract from
the fact that GG looked at before using is seriously confusing &
intimidating.
In addition lot of the time you can't find stuff you know is there even
if you been here a long time already. It is a PITA to use.
My QUESTION is this: is it in TW's interest overall to continue with a
forum that (1) alienates new users and (2) creates hassle for regular
users? (3) Would the hassle of change be broadly welcomed?
Best wishes
Josiah
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