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[tw] Thoughts from the Obvious Side ...
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-10-12 13:50:32 UTC
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Just a comment that many people here LIKE programming and can help get
grannie's memoires online before she snuffs it.

WHERE are the addresses of her finale?

x
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2017-10-12 14:39:48 UTC
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I've thought about this a bit. The thing is, Elements, AcdSee, DigiKam,
have been designed from the ground up for this sort of task, and can access
information that browser-based solutions can't (like image meta data).

It's so confusing. Honestly, I think grandma should post them herself.

Mark
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Just a comment that many people here LIKE programming and can help get
grannie's memoires online before she snuffs it.
WHERE are the addresses of her finale?
x
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-10-12 14:49:52 UTC
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The Grandma Problem is in the last weeks she is not able to asses the state
of the internet.

J.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I've thought about this a bit. The thing is, Elements, AcdSee, DigiKam,
have been designed from the ground up for this sort of task, and can access
information that browser-based solutions can't (like image meta data).
It's so confusing. Honestly, I think grandma should post them herself.
Mark
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Just a comment that many people here LIKE programming and can help get
grannie's memoires online before she snuffs it.
WHERE are the addresses of her finale?
x
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Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/
2017-10-13 01:33:40 UTC
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???
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
The Grandma Problem is in the last weeks she is not able to asses the
state of the internet.
J.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I've thought about this a bit. The thing is, Elements, AcdSee, DigiKam,
have been designed from the ground up for this sort of task, and can access
information that browser-based solutions can't (like image meta data).
It's so confusing. Honestly, I think grandma should post them herself.
Mark
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Just a comment that many people here LIKE programming and can help get
grannie's memoires online before she snuffs it.
WHERE are the addresses of her finale?
x
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-10-13 02:14:02 UTC
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Ciao Dave

It means something like: "a dying person is often not in a state to be able
to handle anything not straightforward."

j x

On Friday, 13 October 2017 03:33:40 UTC+2, Dave Gifford -
???
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
The Grandma Problem is in the last weeks she is not able to asses the
state of the internet.
J.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I've thought about this a bit. The thing is, Elements, AcdSee, DigiKam,
have been designed from the ground up for this sort of task, and can access
information that browser-based solutions can't (like image meta data).
It's so confusing. Honestly, I think grandma should post them herself.
Mark
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Just a comment that many people here LIKE programming and can help get
grannie's memoires online before she snuffs it.
WHERE are the addresses of her finale?
x
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Birthe C
2017-10-13 09:40:31 UTC
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There is the risk that in helping granny, we would add to the internet
graveyard of stuff, that often ends up as porno sites.

Most old people I know like the old fashion book or albums more, using
hours with them. Think about it, if not dead before we all end up old. Many
old people live alone and has next to no help, and certainly not for
internet. My friends father got into a nursing home, he used computer daily
up to that. The nursing home was very expensive and the first thing they
did was cutting the internet connection.

Luckily the old man had written a lot of files about his life earlier on.
We got it prepared for print and printed for him and the closest family to
read and save. Everybody was happy.
My own grandfather told his history to a tape recorder, he did not have the
same patience as his wife who wrote everything by hand.

Believe me the stories were much better than the old black and white
photos, that were rather few also. (there was a time before smartphone
photos, you know)


Birthe
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2017-10-13 14:50:49 UTC
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Seems like 2 different issues.

1. Archiving material for posterity (probably digital)
2. Preparing material for use by the elderly

If it's not too late, the best bet is to have the elderly learn how to use
a tablet. My aunt got pretty good with the computer, but she started as a
young octogenarian. Tablets are light and can contain 1000's of images.

I've been through the album-making process multiple times. I made a photo
web site the first 8 years of my daughter's life. I've made digital photo
albums for family members and converted a high school yearbook into PDF
format.

Hopefully someday someone will come up with a digital storage technology
that doesn't have to be renewed every 5 years.

Mark
Post by Birthe C
There is the risk that in helping granny, we would add to the internet
graveyard of stuff, that often ends up as porno sites.
Most old people I know like the old fashion book or albums more, using
hours with them. Think about it, if not dead before we all end up old. Many
old people live alone and has next to no help, and certainly not for
internet. My friends father got into a nursing home, he used computer daily
up to that. The nursing home was very expensive and the first thing they
did was cutting the internet connection.
Luckily the old man had written a lot of files about his life earlier on.
We got it prepared for print and printed for him and the closest family to
read and save. Everybody was happy.
My own grandfather told his history to a tape recorder, he did not have
the same patience as his wife who wrote everything by hand.
Believe me the stories were much better than the old black and white
photos, that were rather few also. (there was a time before smartphone
photos, you know)
Birthe
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-10-14 15:35:48 UTC
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Ciao Mark S., Dave G. & Birthe

You all woke me up that you care about the posterity issue.

Just a comment: that if we don't sometimes talk about the mechanics of how
to do it and when--the detailed issues "late documenters" face then nobody
knows its in our minds. Actual grannie has actual problems that if can
document better can help a lot. TW use is not in an abstract void--its got
to have some kind of connection to viable material practice to function.

So much discussion here is on "technical means" not "final aims/ends" I
think we in in danger of excluding some kinds of user who is looking at TW
to achieve exactly that issue about posterity.

Maybe there should be a "Posterity Methods Section?" somewhere?

Just thoughts
Josiah
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TonyM
2017-10-15 00:16:43 UTC
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Josiah,


Perhaps you did not notice yet but on your comment;

*So much discussion here is on "technical means" not "final aims/ends" I
think we in in danger of excluding some kinds of user who is looking at TW
to achieve exactly that issue about posterity.*

I some ways this is my key focus, I am keen to develop, and have started, a
whole range of tools that make tiddlywiki more accessible, and to unlock
more of its fundamental features without others having to resort to code or
prepackaged solutions. These tools need to be intuitive, respectful of the
powerful underlying principals yet quick and easy to use by a novice.

Here is some examples

- The tagging system is exquisitely powerful, but using tags to set and
change "status", develop tags for keyword search and document the purpose
of tags is all unstructured.
- Fields provide a highly extensible environment, but using them to
collect data in a form, or documenting their usage is also unstructured.

A lack of structure gives rise to more possible permutations but we can
have structured layers that support common uses without compromising the
underlying philosophy, in fact I would argue we can extend the philosophy
into a usability perspective.


I have n enormous list of "features" I want in tiddlywiki, its not that you
cant already achieve them, its that they cost too much time to acquire, and
the often have unforeseen consequences, if they are not crafted in such a
way as to not result in compromises.I do not want to tax the community too
much so I am developing these solutions myself and will publish them in
time. However I would love some help.


Now this may sound like a newbie desperately seeking knowledge, but I can
confidently say I am no longer a newbie. The thing is if I do not have
quick easy and adaptable ways to achieve reoccurring needs I am slowed down
in the sophistication of the solutions I can develop.


Here is an example;

I have extended the existing edit template view of fields to provide a link
to a tiddler by that field name (a field tiddler).

It allows me to document the purpose and use of that field, even list
tiddlers using that field

I would like to add an Info Icon that shows a tooltip for each field,
ideally from a tooltip field in the "field tiddler"

This would allow someone to lookup the purpose of a field, and define (self
Document) their own fields.


If you can see what I am doing here, is building in features that help me
achieve a lot through an intuitive addition to tiddlywiki to turbocharge
the development of existing and future tiddlywikis.


If I had a bit more cash-flow I would fund a crowd-sourced competition to
provide such solutions. Someone with coding skills could do this more
quickly than I, and would win some funds as a result. The advantage to me
is I would be able to reduce development time and produce more solutions.


I think in someways Josiah, you come from a similar perspective to me. What
I can bring to the community is a clarity of design and requirements that
have both technical strength and usability strength. After all I have a 30+
years of professional experience doing such things. The difficulty is
obtaining a reputation in the community and having people in the community
valuing and responding to these suggestions. I need this reputation because
although I welcome suggestions and criticism of these ideas, I also need
people to share my vision and implement them.


Some more food for thought!


Regards

Tony


PS On this occasion I have found it hard to buy into the Grannie metaphor.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-10-15 16:35:38 UTC
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Ciao TonyM

My last post was probably not as clear as it could have been. I was really
interested in it in FINAL outcomes. That is nothing to do with code and
nothing directly to do with neat procedures people invented in TW (even
though silently enabling).

I was wanting to focus attention on final *usage aims*. Like "Writing
Screenplays", "Posting Tweets" or "Documenting Grannie's History". In other
words WHAT one uses TiddlyWiki FOR.

My point was that sometimes here we overlook the bleeding obvious. Though I
have NO "should" about what folk do, I just think that a lot of the time
here we make it hard for FINAL end-users to grasp how much is available
that will more than adequately fit their limited, doable utilitarian needs.

I'm not sure what the solution is. I think there is a MISSING PIECE.
Possibly a better SHOWCASE of complete wikis so more people can directly
see what can be done? Not sure?

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by TonyM
Perhaps you did not notice yet but on your comment;
*So much discussion here is on "technical means" not "final aims/ends" I
think we in in danger of excluding some kinds of user who is looking at TW
to achieve exactly that issue about posterity.*
I some ways this is my key focus,
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TonyM
2017-10-15 23:51:10 UTC
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Josiah,

You last post was clear and I "get it", I understand the need to TiddlyWiki
to have a more obvious usage, the new users are not seeing tiddlywiki at
its potential best, and it is hard for them to get the vision shared by
enthusiasts.

I am sure I don't have the full answer but can I suggest you reread my last
post and imagine the approach I am suggesting, although I have not detiled
all the possibilities.

To be clear, I am trying to answer your Question, and if it is not,
consider if this set of ideas is still the answer :)

I agree the answers are bleeding obvious, lets make the required features
bleeding obvious.

As I say "If you can see what I am doing here, is building in features that
help me achieve a lot through an intuitive addition to tiddlywiki to
turbocharge the development of existing and future tiddlywikis"

I believe the gap you are seeking, the missing piece(s) to fill, is not in
the core, or in finished examples, but in features that help expose to the
imagination what can be done, and make this, what can be done, easier. I do
not believe another SHOWCASE is necessary if it can only be created by a
developer.

I will give another example "Tags"

Tagging tiddlers is a key feature of tiddlywiki, and even drives its whole
structure, however we do little to illustrate what tags can be used for by
the end user, and when we do those features can only be achieved with
plugins and code so there is a barrier to realising the potential of tags,
people will get there eventually, but only if they do not abandon
tiddlywiki first.

Here is an example of what is difficult for new and enthusiast alike to
discover easily; its used to illustrate my point below.

Tags can

be used like tags in other systems
be uses as categories
build lists
indicate membership
show status
capture hierarchies
capture network relationships
alter appearance, or hide and display content
use color in tags and tiddlers
be sorted, in lists and within tag line
be documented in a tiddler of the same name
be managed as a list within a field
be dragged and dropped to move
and more

The point is using tags to do the above, is what the user wants to learn
and do, and it is not straightforward to do these things. Needing to resort
to plugins or particular editions is overkill when you are learning.

I believe we need to fill this gap with techniques and helpers to maker
these things obvious and easy.

This is a solution for a Specific Example to illustrate, Using tags to
indicate status, requires something like cycletags, which allows you to
step through a set of statuses eg; "new wip completed" removing the last
when assigning the next. Why cant we create a tag/tiddler called status and
use new here to create "new wip and completed" tiddlers tagged with status,
then set a value on status that says when used as a tag allow an OR
selection of tagged tiddlers. This feature with an AND selection could
allow tagging with one or more tags.

Simple problems are solved quickly and all that remains are new and
difficult problems. I think this problem is haunting us because the answer
lies between the core and plugins yet needs to answer the needs of the user.

I am ready to proceed.
Tony
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Eneko Gotzon
2017-10-16 12:12:58 UTC
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Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I was wanting to focus attention on final *usage aims*.
​+1​

​I do not have any right to ask for something ​but, please, keep TW as
simple, stable, secure & lasting as possible.

Great Code Masters: ​Thank you so much!

Well done work &​ valuable service deserves to be fairly paid.
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Abraham Samma
2017-10-16 16:20:57 UTC
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I share your concerns. Tiddlywiki is a little like clay: extremely flexible
and fun to use but without any clear cut, well defined purpose other than
being used as a personal wiki.

Its end use can only be discovered by the community via creation of tools
and applications.

The killer application that will lead to mass adoption of TW5 has yet to be
found. SocialText to my knowledge is the only large scale commercial
application of TW5 to date. I see no reason why that should be the case IMO.

To me, TW5 looks more like a software framework solution in want of a
problem. The problem now is that we're leaving the problem-solution fitting
part to the user, and the user might not really know what he/she needs or
wants to be blunt. There lies the crux of the problem.

I personally think TW5 is still on a journey of self discovery and we need
to keep at it as a community in order for something wonderful to come out
of it.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao TonyM
My last post was probably not as clear as it could have been. I was really
interested in it in FINAL outcomes. That is nothing to do with code and
nothing directly to do with neat procedures people invented in TW (even
though silently enabling).
I was wanting to focus attention on final *usage aims*. Like "Writing
Screenplays", "Posting Tweets" or "Documenting Grannie's History". In other
words WHAT one uses TiddlyWiki FOR.
My point was that sometimes here we overlook the bleeding obvious. Though
I have NO "should" about what folk do, I just think that a lot of the time
here we make it hard for FINAL end-users to grasp how much is available
that will more than adequately fit their limited, doable utilitarian needs.
I'm not sure what the solution is. I think there is a MISSING PIECE.
Possibly a better SHOWCASE of complete wikis so more people can directly
see what can be done? Not sure?
Best wishes
Josiah
Post by TonyM
Perhaps you did not notice yet but on your comment;
*So much discussion here is on "technical means" not "final aims/ends" I
think we in in danger of excluding some kinds of user who is looking at TW
to achieve exactly that issue about posterity.*
I some ways this is my key focus,
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Lost Admin
2017-10-16 16:44:29 UTC
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Post by Abraham Samma
...
I personally think TW5 is still on a journey of self discovery and we need
to keep at it as a community in order for something wonderful to come out
of it.
I would like to volunteer to drive TW5 around the country in a classic VW
camper on this journey of self-discovery. I always wanted to do that but
never did. All I need is sufficient funding.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-10-16 17:26:57 UTC
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Lost Admin

Where is your PayPal?

Josiah
Post by Lost Admin
...
Post by Abraham Samma
I personally think TW5 is still on a journey of self discovery and we
need to keep at it as a community in order for something wonderful to come
out of it.
I would like to volunteer to drive TW5 around the country in a classic VW
camper on this journey of self-discovery. I always wanted to do that but
never did. All I need is sufficient funding.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-10-16 16:53:27 UTC
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Ciao Abraham

Very interesting reply. You get where I am coming from. One thing stood out
for me ...
... To me, TW5 looks more like a software framework solution in want of a
problem.
That is a very pertinent observation IMO.

I think the truth is that resultant apps DO exist but they are largely NOT
VISIBLE. There is LITTLE VALUE placed on showing final works ATM. So at the
community level I hope that, in time, we better understand the need to
"show & tell" and value it.

IMO potential new users need to be able to view many, many finished
fully-functioning TW to be able to grasp what it can do. I'm convinced they
are not idiots. Rather, they need to SEE something COMPLETE running that
mirrors their interest to be able to find their next steps.

Best wishes
Josiah
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TonyM
2017-10-18 00:02:31 UTC
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Josiah,

As in,my earler responce having demonstrations is helpful, and they tend to be complete solutions which is great but most users especialy non expert users would I expect have to do a lot to seperate thier own data and document the details of their setup before making them public. Perhaps this means a lot of implementations go dark, never to be seen. Most of my wikis evolved.

I hope to collect and create building blocks that get people 90% of the way. This may reduce the effort to make shareable solutions.

One way to raise the visibility of different inmplimentations is on a hangout or short videos of how people are using tiddlywiki. Perhaps we should invite users to submitt max 10 miniute video on examples of how they use tiddlywiki.

regards
tony
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Ramu Rajasekharan
2017-10-19 13:42:24 UTC
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I absolutely agree.

I had used tiddlywiki a bit a while back and then stopped and then started
using it again the second time around.

The second time I'm using it like a todo list, a notes manager and an
expense manager all at the same time. The first time around, I used it for
almost these same purposes but I didn't know how powerful it was and I
ended up saving everything as lists in tiddlers. It was the second time
that I was using interfaces made for these uses, like telmiger's todonow
plugin and other similar stuff.

IMO, from the original website it's really hard to figure out what the
possibilities of a tiddlywiki are. The powers of a tiddlywiki is much more
than merely a page you can save in place. I had to grab a tiddlywiki by the
neck and make it squeal and confess it's capabilities. Literally speaking,
I had to learn the internals and be good enough to write my own plugins
before I could understand how powerful it was. Even a simple website that
lists different ways people use it would be very much helpful in this
regard. I did see some examples on the website, like cardo I think and the
academic version of a tiddlywiki with bottomtabs. But for me as a new user,
they seemed wildly different things that I never imagined I could have all
of that and more coexist in a single wiki.

The real power of the wiki is when I can tie up my todo list items with my
expense manager by writing up a few lines wikitext.

IMO, it's not that the wiki is in want of a problem, it's that the
solutions aren't visible enough. The most visible solution is using the
wiki as a note keeper. It's not visible how many different ways a wiki can
be used like a todo list or expense manager or managing any kind of data,
and the least visible thing is how easy it is to change these interfaces or
add new features.

For eg, say I wanted to add a versioning feature to my notes, I can easily
add a bottom tab to list different versions and have a custom save button
to save different versions inside $/versions or something. I can do it in
half a day or less and I can't imagine the amount of time it would take if
I wanted to add a feature like that to some other tool or framework. With
closed source tools like evernote it's impossible, with open source tools,
it may very well take weeks if I'm good with code.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao TonyM
My last post was probably not as clear as it could have been. I was really
interested in it in FINAL outcomes. That is nothing to do with code and
nothing directly to do with neat procedures people invented in TW (even
though silently enabling).
I was wanting to focus attention on final *usage aims*. Like "Writing
Screenplays", "Posting Tweets" or "Documenting Grannie's History". In other
words WHAT one uses TiddlyWiki FOR.
My point was that sometimes here we overlook the bleeding obvious. Though
I have NO "should" about what folk do, I just think that a lot of the time
here we make it hard for FINAL end-users to grasp how much is available
that will more than adequately fit their limited, doable utilitarian needs.
I'm not sure what the solution is. I think there is a MISSING PIECE.
Possibly a better SHOWCASE of complete wikis so more people can directly
see what can be done? Not sure?
Best wishes
Josiah
Post by TonyM
Perhaps you did not notice yet but on your comment;
*So much discussion here is on "technical means" not "final aims/ends" I
think we in in danger of excluding some kinds of user who is looking at TW
to achieve exactly that issue about posterity.*
I some ways this is my key focus,
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