[tw5] Twiiter News -- Short Discussion of Logo

[@TiddlyTweeter]

A short discussion starts here:
https://twitter.com/ABSamma/status/1028771729689255938 asking for a "Fish"
not a "Cat" logo.

Just for info, and comment, if you have one.

@TiddlyTweeter <https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter>

[b***@gmail.com]

o.0 what is this blashemy? As spokesperson for K.A.O.S. (Kats Against
Organization and Sanity), I say "NAY". There can be no eroding of feline
dominance of the human Internet...

That would be my comment- I'm no help. *g,d&r*

[@TiddlyTweeter]

***@CatMail.com

I basically purr your way.

J.

... There can be no eroding of feline dominance of the human Internet...

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

While a fish makes more sense, the cat is a better basis for a logo.

Better to change the TiddlyWiki name entirely to something that will get
more traction, if that's the goal.

I'm not sure if this is been mentioned, but TiddlyWiki is only a couple
letters off from "Tiddly Winks", an increasingly obscure children's game
whose use always implied that one had too much idle time on their hands.
This makes the actual name something of an embarrassment even for the most
fervent of TW evangelists.

-- Mark

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
https://twitter.com/ABSamma/status/1028771729689255938 asking for a
"Fish" not a "Cat" logo.
Just for info, and comment, if you have one.
@TiddlyTweeter <https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter>

[TonyM]

Mark,

While agreeing the name is not perfect it is "our brand". Its uniqueness is actualy a valuable feature.

One way out of this is to consistently use a tag line with the name eg;

Application and website development platform TiddlyWiki.

Thus people will come see it as what we say it is and use the name as a lable.

A real world example may be "red hat" linux.

Regards
Tony

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Post by TonyM
While agreeing the name is not perfect it is "our brand". Its uniqueness
is actualy a valuable feature.

I agree that messing with logos and names NOW for TW5 would just get messy
with no benefit.

What came up in the original post on Twitter was the idea that the
"logo/mascot" should match the name. From there came the questions: (1) is
it a GOOD name? (2) is it the RIGHT image? (cat).

I think the real intent was towards imagining what could be, later, rather
than changing anything now.

By way of suggested forethought, if we need an Animal Logo in the future
(TWX), I'd personally vote for the CHAMELEON.

Best wishes
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
While a fish makes more sense, the cat is a better basis for a logo.

I agree. Not least that a cat can occupy a square or a circle. Last year
Twitter forced AVIs into circles. The several TW cats on there
(https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter/lists/tiddlywiki-international/members)
all needed to tweak a bit. But a Fish would have had a hard time and
require a very good re-designer. In any case, fish are too long.

J.

[Adam Shepherd]

Hello!

New forum member here.
I discovered TW about a year ago and I'm completely in love with it since.
I never understood the cat.
I'm a designer and it took me precisely 7 minutes to cook up a square-ish
(in its aspect-ratio, but the actual fish is intended to be friendly hence
the curved lines) fish logo for TW that I think is better than the cat. It
is more thematically linked. I also incorporated the brilliant idea of the
poster.
Keep in mind that this is a *VERY ROUGH, FAST SKETCH* but I imagine it
could work. Think of it as a proof of concept.


Let me know if there is an official interest for a logo design for TW. I'd
be very, *very* happy to do it. (I'd love to give something back for this
amazing tool and I'm not good at coding, but logo design...half my life was
spent doing that.)

Post by @TiddlyTweeter

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
While a fish makes more sense, the cat is a better basis for a logo.

I agree. Not least that a cat can occupy a square or a circle. Last year
Twitter forced AVIs into circles. The several TW cats on there (
https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter/lists/tiddlywiki-international/members)
all needed to tweak a bit. But a Fish would have had a hard time and
require a very good re-designer. In any case, fish are too long.
J.

[Enneco Gotzon]

Hi Adam.

I also believe that as TW logo your proposal is much more suitable than the
current cat; thank you.

I think you have designed a good logo, but with all humility and due
respect regarding your work, I would like to make a few aesthetic
suggestions:

1. To better represent a graceful little fish I would stylize the
stroke, avoiding thickening—I think that the thickened outline, specially
in the head area, adds too much consistency.
2. I would avoid prolonging the upper right arm of the Y up to what can
be interpreted as the anal-urinary area of the fish because it could be
interpreted as an excretion.
3. I believe that a logo should only convey the essence of the message.
In addition, most of the time our TW logo will be a little image.
Consequently, I would simplify its design as much as possible, showing only
the essentials.

I hope to be relevant.

I apologize for my audacity.

Take care.

Post by Adam Shepherd
Hello!
New forum member here.
I discovered TW about a year ago and I'm completely in love with it since.
I never understood the cat.
I'm a designer and it took me precisely 7 minutes to cook up a square-ish
(in its aspect-ratio, but the actual fish is intended to be friendly hence
the curved lines) fish logo for TW that I think is better than the cat. It
is more thematically linked. I also incorporated the brilliant idea of the
poster.
Keep in mind that this is a *VERY ROUGH, FAST SKETCH* but I imagine it
could work. Think of it as a proof of concept.
Let me know if there is an official interest for a logo design for TW. I'd
be very, *very* happy to do it. (I'd love to give something back for this
amazing tool and I'm not good at coding, but logo design...half my life was
spent doing that.)

Post by @TiddlyTweeter

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
While a fish makes more sense, the cat is a better basis for a logo.

I agree. Not least that a cat can occupy a square or a circle. Last year
Twitter forced AVIs into circles. The several TW cats on there (
https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter/lists/tiddlywiki-international/members)
all needed to tweak a bit. But a Fish would have had a hard time and
require a very good re-designer. In any case, fish are too long.
J.

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--
*Enneco-Gotzon Ares*
*Sciencia, Ethica, Esthetica*
*Democracia, Republica​, Empresa​*
*EH, Wasconia, NA Osso*
--

*Datu personalac babesteco abenduac 13co 15/1999 Legueari jarraituz, jaquin
eçaçu meçu hau eta berari atchiquitaco oro isilpeco dela eta soilic bere
harçaileari çucencen çaizquiola.Meçu hau hutseguitez jasoz guero berau
eçabatzea othoi escatzen da. Esquertuco liçate igorleari emaitea bidalqueta
desegoquien berri.Debecatuta dago aguerico baimenic gabe meçu honen edota
bere eduquinen edocein erabilera edo hedatzea, ossoqui cein çathiz.Meçu
electronicoac andea daitezque. Meçu hau aldaturic, andeaturic edota aiçun
balego Enneco-Gotzon Aresec, bere ordezcariec edota meçu igorleec uko
eguiten deraucote ondoriozco edonolaco ardurei.*

[Adam Shepherd]

Thank you! No need to apologize.

I agree with your points and no worries for pointing out its weaknesses -
It was just a "napkin-sketch" response to "Not least that a cat can occupy
a square or a circle. [as opposed to a cat]" and that "But a Fish would
have had a hard time and require a very good re-designer. In any case, fish
are too long." Neither of these are correct, and I only pointed out that it
only took a few minutes to come up with an ad-hoc solution to shed light on
this fact.

I don't intend to work on it unless there is some confirmation that a
change is indeed a possibility. Or that if the result is convincing it will
be considered for a future release.
In that event, it'll take weeks to explore the possibilities, not minutes.

On the second point, though - It was intended to be seen as excretion. I
always interpreted the poster this way. As a joke. When I posted my
response I re-examined the poster and realized that it might not mean what
I thought. :D I still think that its a funny idea with the slogan "Your
messy thoughts, Organized" ... But it is probably not fitting to the
tiddlywiki branding so I agree.

Post by Enneco Gotzon
Hi Adam.
I also believe that as TW logo your proposal is much more suitable than
the current cat; thank you.
I think you have designed a good logo, but with all humility and due
respect regarding your work, I would like to make a few aesthetic
1. To better represent a graceful little fish I would stylize the
stroke, avoiding thickening—I think that the thickened outline, specially
in the head area, adds too much consistency.
2. I would avoid prolonging the upper right arm of the Y up to what
can be interpreted as the anal-urinary area of the fish because it could be
interpreted as an excretion.
3. I believe that a logo should only convey the essence of the
message. In addition, most of the time our TW logo will be a little image.
Consequently, I would simplify its design as much as possible, showing only
the essentials.
I hope to be relevant.
I apologize for my audacity.
Take care.

Post by Adam Shepherd
Hello!
New forum member here.
I discovered TW about a year ago and I'm completely in love with it
since. I never understood the cat.
I'm a designer and it took me precisely 7 minutes to cook up a square-ish
(in its aspect-ratio, but the actual fish is intended to be friendly hence
the curved lines) fish logo for TW that I think is better than the cat. It
is more thematically linked. I also incorporated the brilliant idea of the
poster.
Keep in mind that this is a *VERY ROUGH, FAST SKETCH* but I imagine it
could work. Think of it as a proof of concept.
Let me know if there is an official interest for a logo design for TW.
I'd be very, *very* happy to do it. (I'd love to give something back for
this amazing tool and I'm not good at coding, but logo design...half my
life was spent doing that.)

Post by @TiddlyTweeter

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
While a fish makes more sense, the cat is a better basis for a logo.

I agree. Not least that a cat can occupy a square or a circle. Last year
Twitter forced AVIs into circles. The several TW cats on there (
https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter/lists/tiddlywiki-international/members)
all needed to tweak a bit. But a Fish would have had a hard time and
require a very good re-designer. In any case, fish are too long.
J.

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--
*Enneco-Gotzon Ares*
*Sciencia, Ethica, Esthetica*
*Democracia, Republica​, Empresa​*
*EH, Wasconia, NA Osso*
--
*Datu personalac babesteco abenduac 13co 15/1999 Legueari jarraituz,
jaquin eçaçu meçu hau eta berari atchiquitaco oro isilpeco dela eta soilic
bere harçaileari çucencen çaizquiola.Meçu hau hutseguitez jasoz guero berau
eçabatzea othoi escatzen da. Esquertuco liçate igorleari emaitea bidalqueta
desegoquien berri.Debecatuta dago aguerico baimenic gabe meçu honen edota
bere eduquinen edocein erabilera edo hedatzea, ossoqui cein çathiz.Meçu
electronicoac andea daitezque. Meçu hau aldaturic, andeaturic edota aiçun
balego Enneco-Gotzon Aresec, bere ordezcariec edota meçu igorleec uko
eguiten deraucote ondoriozco edonolaco ardurei.*

[Enneco Gotzon]

Post by Adam Shepherd
No need to apologize.

Thank you Adam :)

I don't intend to work on it unless there is some confirmation that a

Post by Adam Shepherd
change is indeed a possibility.

I'm just a humble -and grateful- TW user.

On
this
kind
of questions [brand logo, name
]
I prefer let the TW programmers to be the ones that decide
;
t
hey deserve to be satisfied.

I would be willing to collaborate in a consensual process
us
of adapt
at
i
o
n
or re-creation of the TW logo
,
promoting, for example
,
online surveys
[
Google Forms

]
about

its
relevance, possibilities, etc.
But y
ou must know
that
I'm not fluent in English
;
I would need much more time than you to try to achieve the same goals.

Post by Adam Shepherd
It was intended to be seen as excretion


A punk between us
 ;) Welcome :)

. I always interpreted the poster this way. As a joke. When I posted my

Post by Adam Shepherd
response I re-examined the poster and realized that it might not mean what
I thought. :D I still think that its a funny idea with the slogan "Your
messy thoughts, Organized" ... But it is probably not fitting to the
tiddlywiki branding so I agree.

Post by Enneco Gotzon
Hi Adam.
I also believe that as TW logo your proposal is much more suitable than
the current cat; thank you.
I think you have designed a good logo, but with all humility and due
respect regarding your work, I would like to make a few aesthetic
1. To better represent a graceful little fish I would stylize the
stroke, avoiding thickening—I think that the thickened outline, specially
in the head area, adds too much consistency.
2. I would avoid prolonging the upper right arm of the Y up to what
can be interpreted as the anal-urinary area of the fish because it could be
interpreted as an excretion.
3. I believe that a logo should only convey the essence of the
message. In addition, most of the time our TW logo will be a little image.
Consequently, I would simplify its design as much as possible, showing only
the essentials.
I hope to be relevant.
I apologize for my audacity.
Take care.

Post by Adam Shepherd
Hello!
New forum member here.
I discovered TW about a year ago and I'm completely in love with it
since. I never understood the cat.
I'm a designer and it took me precisely 7 minutes to cook up a
square-ish (in its aspect-ratio, but the actual fish is intended to be
friendly hence the curved lines) fish logo for TW that I think is better
than the cat. It is more thematically linked. I also incorporated the
brilliant idea of the poster.
Keep in mind that this is a *VERY ROUGH, FAST SKETCH* but I imagine it
could work. Think of it as a proof of concept.
Let me know if there is an official interest for a logo design for TW.
I'd be very, *very* happy to do it. (I'd love to give something back
for this amazing tool and I'm not good at coding, but logo design...half my
life was spent doing that.)

Post by @TiddlyTweeter

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
While a fish makes more sense, the cat is a better basis for a logo.

I agree. Not least that a cat can occupy a square or a circle. Last
year Twitter forced AVIs into circles. The several TW cats on there (
https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter/lists/tiddlywiki-
international/members) all needed to tweak a bit. But a Fish would
have had a hard time and require a very good re-designer. In any case, fish
are too long.
J.

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--
*Enneco-Gotzon Ares*
*Sciencia, Ethica, Esthetica*
*Democracia, Republica, Empresa*
*EH, Wasconia, NA Osso*
--
*Datu personalac babesteco abenduac 13co 15/1999 Legueari jarraituz,
jaquin eçaçu meçu hau eta berari atchiquitaco oro isilpeco dela eta soilic
bere harçaileari çucencen çaizquiola.Meçu hau hutseguitez jasoz guero berau
eçabatzea othoi escatzen da. Esquertuco liçate igorleari emaitea bidalqueta
desegoquien berri.Debecatuta dago aguerico baimenic gabe meçu honen edota
bere eduquinen edocein erabilera edo hedatzea, ossoqui cein çathiz.Meçu
electronicoac andea daitezque. Meçu hau aldaturic, andeaturic edota aiçun
balego Enneco-Gotzon Aresec, bere ordezcariec edota meçu igorleec uko
eguiten deraucote ondoriozco edonolaco ardurei.*

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--
*Enneco-Gotzon Ares*
*Sciencia, Ethica, Esthetica*
*Democracia, Republica, Empresa*
*EH, Wasconia, NA Osso*
--

*Datu personalac babesteco abenduac 13co 15/1999 Legueari jarraituz, jaquin
eçaçu meçu hau eta berari atchiquitaco oro isilpeco dela eta soilic bere
harçaileari çucencen çaizquiola.Meçu hau hutseguitez jasoz guero berau
eçabatzea othoi escatzen da. Esquertuco liçate igorleari emaitea bidalqueta
desegoquien berri.Debecatuta dago aguerico baimenic gabe meçu honen edota
bere eduquinen edocein erabilera edo hedatzea, ossoqui cein çathiz.Meçu
electronicoac andea daitezque. Meçu hau aldaturic, andeaturic edota aiçun
balego Enneco-Gotzon Aresec, bere ordezcariec edota meçu igorleec uko
eguiten deraucote ondoriozco edonolaco ardurei.*

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Adam

Your sketch is great — it’s lively and cheerful in a way that non-designers like me can never achieve. I’d love to see what you can do with more time.

But, as you maybe guessed, I’m not super keen on changing the logo, for a bunch of reasons:

* Changing it will be surprisingly expensive in terms of my time and attention — the current logo is embedded in several TiddlyWiki-related software projects, it’s also used on social media. The problem here is the opportunity cost: changing the logo consumes a bunch of time on fiddly changes but doesn’t really get the project any closer to its goals

* Motovun Jack has been the logo for TiddlyWiki5 since the project started in 2011, with a self-avowed goal of having a lifetime of 25 years. Taking a long view of this project, I don’t mind improving and refining the logo (as Mozilla have done), but I don’t like the idea of completely changing it to a different animal while we’re still in the first 25 years

* Motovun Jack became the logo for two reasons. Firstly, I met him and struck up a friendship when I was on a brief holiday just as I left my job at BT to pursue working on TW5 full time. He was sitting by me as I scribbled the first notes of my plans for the project. Secondly, I reasoned that a cat is a consumer of tiddlers


Meanwhile, when I look at TiddlyWiki 5 I see a few areas where a skilled designer could bring improvements that might benefit all users:

* The “Snow White” theme is pale and lifeless, and doesn’t use typography well
* The “edit template” is jumbled and confusing, with no clear visual hierarchy
* The TW5 default colour palettes are a good start, but not great

In summary, I’m happy to consider tweaks/improvements to the current logo, but I’m much more excited about the other areas where skills like yours can bring so much more value.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

Post by Adam Shepherd
Hello!
New forum member here.
I discovered TW about a year ago and I'm completely in love with it since. I never understood the cat.
I'm a designer and it took me precisely 7 minutes to cook up a square-ish (in its aspect-ratio, but the actual fish is intended to be friendly hence the curved lines) fish logo for TW that I think is better than the cat. It is more thematically linked. I also incorporated the brilliant idea of the poster.
Keep in mind that this is a VERY ROUGH, FAST SKETCH but I imagine it could work. Think of it as a proof of concept.
<Auto Generated Inline Image 1.jpeg>
Let me know if there is an official interest for a logo design for TW. I'd be very, very happy to do it. (I'd love to give something back for this amazing tool and I'm not good at coding, but logo design...half my life was spent doing that.)
While a fish makes more sense, the cat is a better basis for a logo.
I agree. Not least that a cat can occupy a square or a circle. Last year Twitter forced AVIs into circles. The several TW cats on there (https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter/lists/tiddlywiki-international/members <https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter/lists/tiddlywiki-international/members>) all needed to tweak a bit. But a Fish would have had a hard time and require a very good re-designer. In any case, fish are too long.
J.
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[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi all

I am not a cat fan in general, but I support Jeremy in this case:

a cat is a consumer of tiddlers

By the way: Why would anyone put a horse as a logo on a car? Horses are no
longer needed, now we have cars. And: My computer has nothing to do with
agriculural products like Apples. And so on.

So let's keep the established cat and invest time in more fruitful
projects.

Cheers,
Thomas

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Post by Jeremy Ruston
a cat is a consumer of tiddlers


So what's needed is a logo of a cat holding a tiddler in it's mouth ;-)

Post by Jeremy Ruston
By the way: Why would anyone put a horse as a logo on a car? Horses are no
longer needed, now we have cars. And: My computer has nothing to do with
agriculural products like Apples. And so on.

Which raises that old question, if a jar with a picture of peanuts contains
peanut butter, what does a jar with a picture of a baby contain?

-- Mark

[a***@gmail.com]

How about reserving it for version X/6?

Post by Enneco Gotzon
Hi Adam
Your sketch is great — it’s lively and cheerful in a way that
non-designers like me can never achieve. I’d love to see what you can do
with more time.
But, as you maybe guessed, I’m not super keen on changing the logo, for a
* Changing it will be surprisingly expensive in terms of my time and
attention — the current logo is embedded in several TiddlyWiki-related
software projects, it’s also used on social media. The problem here is the
opportunity cost: changing the logo consumes a bunch of time on fiddly
changes but doesn’t really get the project any closer to its goals
* Motovun Jack has been the logo for TiddlyWiki5 since the project started
in 2011, with a self-avowed goal of having a lifetime of 25 years. Taking a
long view of this project, I don’t mind improving and refining the logo (as
Mozilla have done), but I don’t like the idea of completely changing it to
a different animal while we’re still in the first 25 years
* Motovun Jack became the logo for two reasons. Firstly, I met him and
struck up a friendship when I was on a brief holiday just as I left my job
at BT to pursue working on TW5 full time. He was sitting by me as I
scribbled the first notes of my plans for the project. Secondly, I reasoned
that a cat is a consumer of tiddlers

Meanwhile, when I look at TiddlyWiki 5 I see a few areas where a skilled
* The “Snow White” theme is pale and lifeless, and doesn’t use typography
well
* The “edit template” is jumbled and confusing, with no clear visual hierarchy
* The TW5 default colour palettes are a good start, but not great
In summary, I’m happy to consider tweaks/improvements to the current logo,
but I’m much more excited about the other areas where skills like yours can
bring so much more value.
Best wishes
Jeremy.
Hello!
New forum member here.
I discovered TW about a year ago and I'm completely in love with it since.
I never understood the cat.
I'm a designer and it took me precisely 7 minutes to cook up a square-ish
(in its aspect-ratio, but the actual fish is intended to be friendly hence
the curved lines) fish logo for TW that I think is better than the cat. It
is more thematically linked. I also incorporated the brilliant idea of the
poster.
Keep in mind that this is a *VERY ROUGH, FAST SKETCH* but I imagine it
could work. Think of it as a proof of concept.
<Auto Generated Inline Image 1.jpeg>
Let me know if there is an official interest for a logo design for TW. I'd
be very, *very* happy to do it. (I'd love to give something back for this
amazing tool and I'm not good at coding, but logo design...half my life was
spent doing that.)

Post by @TiddlyTweeter

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
While a fish makes more sense, the cat is a better basis for a logo.

I agree. Not least that a cat can occupy a square or a circle. Last year
Twitter forced AVIs into circles. The several TW cats on there (
https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter/lists/tiddlywiki-international/members)
all needed to tweak a bit. But a Fish would have had a hard time and
require a very good re-designer. In any case, fish are too long.
J.

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<Auto Generated Inline Image 1.jpeg>

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Abraham

Post by a***@gmail.com
How about reserving it for version X/6?

Yes, indeed, TWX will represent a fresh start, perhaps with a new name and I think qualifies for a new logo


Best wishes

Jeremy.

[b***@gmail.com]

Jeremy,

I figured keeping with Motovun Jack also out of tradition, he was the
mascot from the very beginning. And it all a matter of perspective, me and
plenty others don't associate Tiddly with fish but with small and a kitten
seems fitting enough for the name. Been then I copuld also be accused of
been prejudiced in my views, considering my ties with K.A.O.S.<< >>> The
log be approved : D



Meanwhile, when I look at TiddlyWiki 5 I see a few areas where a skilled
Is that a call for opportunities for graphics' designers of the community?
If you don't mind, perhaps I should post that segment of your post in a new
thread so more noticeable than among this all the ext of this thread.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Is that a call for opportunities for graphics' designers of the community? If you don't mind, perhaps I should post that segment of your post in a new thread so more noticeable than among this all the ext of this thread.

Great idea. It would be terrific to make a clearer path for designers to contribute to the project.

Best wishes

Jeremy

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Post by b***@gmail.com
Is that a call for opportunities for graphics' designers of the community?

Post by b***@gmail.com
If you don't mind, perhaps I should post that segment of your post in a new
thread so more noticeable than among this all the ext of this thread.

Great idea. It would be terrific to make a clearer path for designers to
contribute to the project.

This thread has been interesting & helpful.

Whilst "the cat" remains the current moniker for TW several issues arose
relevant to future design ...

1 - Should the image *in some way be more tightly connect to the intent?*
Personally I thought John Newell's posts, starting at
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/el52HKBX0Uc/R0S_-gQKAgAJ, were
in that ballpark. John works commercially with promoting TW. He points to
some kind of logo that illustrates that TW could be centred on a central
function of combining "bits into wholes."

2 - *Should the image be an animal?* Why? I love cats so I do like the
IMAGE. But, longer term, is it a fit? I mean does a young cat visually
express characteristics of TW? If its an animal I get a sense more of the
Chameleon than either fish or cat.

3 - Adam Sherpard's fish
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/el52HKBX0Uc/W8dmC4HWBwAJ> is an
excellent proto-design (albeit I was the one saying "fish are too long")
showing what a good designer can do. The conceptual problem IMO is that
"fish is TW come in shoals", not singular. Tiddlers I don't think make
sense alone (here I'm reverting to point 1.)

Good visual design takes time. Its not the image per se that is usually
most of the work. Its clarifying *what one needs to represent*.

Best wishes
Josiah

[bimlas]

I don't mind about the logo but if I had to choose an image which
represents the philosophy of TiddlyWiki, then I would vote to these:

-
Loading Image...

The box from The Little Prince: it contains anything what you imagine, as a
tiddler does.

- https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/js/untangle.html

This game reminds me to Tiddly, because it has nodes which are connected in
numerous ways.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

... I would vote ...
-
http://blogs.cardenalcisneros.es/childrenslit2016/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/box.jpg
<Loading Image...&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNE_2PaiewLLNmSwFSzlmWGxIs8O7Q>
The box from The Little Prince: it contains anything what you imagine, as
a tiddler does.

That is a really interesting image. I think the "unknown" about what is
inside the box might also be a little scary ... :-)

Best wishes
Josiah

[Arlen Beiler]

Totally! This has been my biggest pain point with TiddlyWiki. The pallate
system is excellent but underused by the vanilla theme. We don't have
enough good looking pallates. I made a dark background pallate that I use
in all my wikis but I had to do a couple tweaks, I think. And codemirror
should use the pallate for the background and foreground colors.

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Meanwhile, when I look at TiddlyWiki 5 I see a few areas where a skilled
* The “Snow White” theme is pale and lifeless, and doesn’t use typography
well
* The “edit template” is jumbled and confusing, with no clear visual hierarchy
* The TW5 default colour palettes are a good start, but not great
In summary, I’m happy to consider tweaks/improvements to the current logo,
but I’m much more excited about the other areas where skills like yours can
bring so much more value.
Best wishes
Jeremy

[a***@gmail.com]

This is a fantastic candidate. Mark my words, the days of Kitty kat in the
logo are numbered. ;)

Post by Adam Shepherd
Hello!
New forum member here.
I discovered TW about a year ago and I'm completely in love with it since.
I never understood the cat.
I'm a designer and it took me precisely 7 minutes to cook up a square-ish
(in its aspect-ratio, but the actual fish is intended to be friendly hence
the curved lines) fish logo for TW that I think is better than the cat. It
is more thematically linked. I also incorporated the brilliant idea from
the poster.
Keep in mind that this is a *VERY ROUGH, FAST SKETCH* but I imagine it
could work. Think of it as a proof of concept.
Let me know if there is an official interest for a logo design for TW. I'd
be very, *very* happy to do it. (I'd love to give something back for this
amazing tool and I'm not good at coding, but logo design...half my life was
spent doing that.)

Post by @TiddlyTweeter

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
While a fish makes more sense, the cat is a better basis for a logo.

I agree. Not least that a cat can occupy a square or a circle. Last year
Twitter forced AVIs into circles. The several TW cats on there (
https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter/lists/tiddlywiki-international/members)
all needed to tweak a bit. But a Fish would have had a hard time and
require a very good re-designer. In any case, fish are too long.
J.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Better to change the TiddlyWiki name entirely to something that will get
more traction, if that's the goal.

Right. There the two aspects.

-- The image/mascot/logo.

-- The name.

The author of the original post on Twitter, I think, was inclining to the
view that the "logo" should in some way reflect the name.

My general view is that "you don't mess with it till its time"--since the
cat is the thing most used already. I sort of think that TW drifted into
the feline world? But its associated with it now? And it works visually
well.

But when the time comes--like a completely new version--code-name
TWX--maybe rethink image AND name.

J.

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Kitty-Wiki ?

Just to repeat -- to a big chunk of the world the name "TiddlyWiki" sounds
a lot like the maligned game "Tiddly Winks". To people hearing it that way,
you might have as well called it "TiddlyWeakling". It definitely lacks
gravitas.

Word association is a powerful effect. People have lost their jobs because
they used perfectly benign words that happened to phonetically resemble
pejorative terms.

Even if more people associated "Tiddler" with "Fish", would that be a good
thing? "FishyWiki" ?

For that matter, though a tiddler may be a fish, what exactly is a "Tiddly"
?

-- Mark

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Better to change the TiddlyWiki name entirely to something that will get
more traction, if that's the goal.

Right. There are the two aspects.
-- The image/mascot/logo.
-- The name.
The author of the original post on Twitter, I think, was inclining to the
view that the "logo" should in some way reflect the name.
My general view is that "you don't mess with it till its time"--since the
cat is the thing most used already. I sort of think that TW drifted into
the feline world? Its associated with it now? It works visually well.
But when the time comes--like a completely new version--code-name
TWX--maybe rethink image AND name.
J.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Just to repeat -- to a big chunk of the world the name "TiddlyWiki" sounds
a lot like the maligned game "Tiddly Winks". To people hearing it that way,
you might have as well called it "TiddlyWeakling"...

... It definitely lacks gravitas.
I agree.

-- *Tiddly* implies "diminutive," which TW definitely is not. What I think
has happened is that a great metaphor celebrating "The Fragment" ("Tiddler"
as a key aspect of *functional architecture*) has been conflated with *its
purpose--*as if fragments mattered. IMO end-users are interested in wholes
they can make, not so much the bits that form them or the recipes involved.
Tiddlers are a part the "Cooking Story", not the "Dish Made". The name
would better be the dish not the cooking method. Something like that.

To put that another way... its better to focus on user final intent in
naming than how the thing works.

-- *Wiki* is contentious. Personally I think its unnecessary. Yes, TW is in
a Wiki tradition, but it also somewhat elliptical to it. If you look of
listings of different Wiki you will quickly see that TW is rarely
represented properly. It is somewhat orthogonal to how those listings work.
I don't think I have seen a single accurate representation of TW as a Wiki
other than within the TW community.

Early thoughts
Josiah

[John Newell]

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
https://twitter.com/ABSamma/status/1028771729689255938 asking for a
"Fish" not a "Cat" logo.
Just for info, and comment, if you have one.
@TiddlyTweeter <https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter>

I have read most of the posts on this and have a few suggestions, notions
and comments on potentially creating the right brand for tiddlywiki.
I am aware I may be shot down for this - but I echo the years of comments
from hundreds of clients and friends with whom I have shared the wonder of
TW.
Almost to a man ( or woman ) they scoff at "tiddlywiki" as being twee in
their perspective of the "brand / name"


- Adam Shepherd's design rings true in many ways .... but mostly in the
icon / logo being square ( best shape for most uses )
- Since I first bumped into TW - I believe the "disconnects" are the
"wiki" "tiddly" "cat" "fish"
- With the exception of wiki - what purpose for *recall* do the animals
have? If you HAD TO USE AND ANIMAL - perhaps an elephant would portray the
ability to never forget or lose data, ideas etc .

- *Some relevant* google search results
- ...Tumblr *1.86B*
- ...Posterous - closed for 5 years now *1.79M*
- ...tiddlywiki *682K* ------ not many by comparison - so any
rebranding will be HOPEFULLY witnessed by a fresh new market -

there's little damage that can be done with a brand / logo change
as those who *know *TW ARE the vast majority of those who *use it*.

The *big market* is still out there waiting to discover the magic
tiddlywiki offers.
and they are unaware of the branding issue

- TW is a magic organiser in one place
- one file - with all it's parts beautifully connected -
- easy to learn -
- a wondrous challenge to master -
- globally useful -
- free -
- a community of support and ideas.

- My suggestion for the LOGO - ) for the likes of Adam Shepherd to
mock up ) - is a *spherical rubiks cube* -

sort of like this BUT with :

- a variety of colour
- fewer "nodes"
- more variance between *closed and open *.....


Loading Image...

[image:
https://icon2.kisspng.com/20180308/itq/kisspng-3d-computer-graphics-ball-stereoscopy-red-cube-sphere-5aa10bf3622201.336600641520503795402.jpg]

-
- where every "node" is interconnected..
- and easy to manipulate

- That also represents :
- global,
- malleable,
- smart,
- organised,
- solid,
- reliable in operation ......

- and ( sort of emulates the wikipedia format but dynamic - ref :
[image:
Loading Image...]

"just saying "

[Enneco Gotzon]

- My suggestion for the LOGO - is a *spherical rubiks cube*
I like it! Thank you!

I
think it is a good idea to
be inspired by the Wikipedia logo and to represent the essence of TW:
interconnected
,
dynamic nodes of knowledge.

I
believe
that
taking enough care
about
TW's
branding
would help
to
popularize the project
, but a
s in this [fantastic] group there are people much more capable than me, and
also I want respect both Jeremy's attachment to the current logo and his
priorities about TW goals and effectiveness, I think it's better that I
leave this topic to our experts and [esteemed] programmers.

- a variety of colour
- fewer "nodes"
-1: To indicate the TW capability to create and connect information

nodes, it seems relevant that its logo shows a sufficient amount, a
reasonable abundance of nodes.

-
- more variance between *closed and open *.....
https://icon2.kisspng.com/20180308/itq/kisspng-3d-computer-graphics-ball-stereoscopy-red-cube-sphere-5aa10bf3622201.336600641520503795402.jpg
https://icon2.kisspng.com/20180308/itq/kisspng-3d-computer-graphics-ball-stereoscopy-red-cube-sphere-5aa10bf3622201.336600641520503795402.jpg]
-
- where every "node" is interconnected..
- and easy to manipulate
- global,
- malleable,
- smart,
- organised,
- solid,
- reliable in operation ......
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Wikipedia_Logo_1.0.png/220px-Wikipedia_Logo_1.0.png]
"just saying "
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--
*Enneco-Gotzon Ares*
*Sciencia, Ethica, Esthetica*
*Democracia, Republica, Empresa*
*EH, Wasconia, NA Osso*
--

*Datu personalac babesteco abenduac 13co 15/1999 Legueari jarraituz, jaquin
eçaçu meçu hau eta berari atchiquitaco oro isilpeco dela eta soilic bere
harçaileari çucencen çaizquiola.Meçu hau hutseguitez jasoz guero berau
eçabatzea othoi escatzen da. Esquertuco liçate igorleari emaitea bidalqueta
desegoquien berri.Debecatuta dago aguerico baimenic gabe meçu honen edota
bere eduquinen edocein erabilera edo hedatzea, ossoqui cein çathiz.Meçu
electronicoac andea daitezque. Meçu hau aldaturic, andeaturic edota aiçun
balego Enneco-Gotzon Aresec, bere ordezcariec edota meçu igorleec uko
eguiten deraucote ondoriozco edonolaco ardurei.*

[bimlas]

Take a look at these sites:

- https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/list_of_applications#Graphical
- https://www.slant.co/options/5116/~tiddlywiki-review
- https://www.wikimatrix.org/compare/TiddlyWiki+DokuWiki+MediaWiki
- https://alternativeto.net/software/tiddlywiki/
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiddlyWiki

The logo (at least some kind of it) is shown only on the last two. While
viewing these sites, did you looked at the logo of the site itself? I don't
think so. How do you recognize a site? I think the colors and the shape,
the overall design gives more "personality" to a website than an "avatar",
an icon. I absolutely agree with Jeremy that Tiddly needs design
improvements instead of replacing an image what you see in very rare times.
If a newcomer wants to know Tiddly, he/she will try it out and will never
met with the logo until he/she look for it exactly (well, OK, the favicon
is the logo), but the "feeling" of the site will affect him/her.

[John Newell]

interesting response

you've missed the objective of the purpose of a logo - which is primarily

the identifier face of a company or product -

and to create a subliminal link between thelogo/icon and the brand name.

it is neant to have a RECOGNITION FACTOR

which is not delivered by the look or functionality of a webpage

if that WAS the case then you'd identify this top 20 globalwebsite in an instant - which i am sure 90% + would not ( i am confident about that having just tested it by blurring only 2 small parts of the home page
.
10% recognition factor isn't branding






Sent from my iPhone

The logo (at least some kind of it) is shown only on the last two. While viewing these sites, did you looked at the logo of the site itself? I don't think so. How do you recognize a site? I think the colors and the shape, the overall design gives more "personality" to a website than an "avatar", an icon. I absolutely agree with Jeremy that Tiddly needs design improvements instead of replacing an image what you see in very rare times. If a newcomer wants to know Tiddly,

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Post by John Newell
With the exception of wiki - what purpose for *recall* do the animals
have? If you HAD TO USE AND ANIMAL - perhaps an elephant would portray the
ability to never forget or lose data, ideas etc .

Already taken by a company with $300 million dollar investment that is very
likely to take a dim view of anyone else's elephant.

Post by John Newell
-
-
https://icon2.kisspng.com/20180308/itq/kisspng-3d-computer-graphics-ball-stereoscopy-red-cube-sphere-5aa10bf3622201.336600641520503795402.jpg
https://icon2.kisspng.com/20180308/itq/kisspng-3d-computer-graphics-ball-stereoscopy-red-cube-sphere-5aa10bf3622201.336600641520503795402.jpg]

It should be tilted 20 degrees to better convey the "earth" connotation and
parallel wikipedia. If it's like a Rubik's cube, it should be in multiple
colors. The red color would clash with most of the main TW themes.

-- Mark

[John Newell]

2 points :

(1) apologies if i mis-comminicated that - there's no way i am suggestIng
thd use of an elephant styled icon / logo ..... i was merely illustrating
the connectons that can be made or aligned with certain animals or icons
.....

(2) the "rubix cube'" styled sphere should bd :

- fewer in "stems" for a simplified vetsion that is cohesive in smaller
renditions .... and with a range of colours to suggest diversity of content
utility..... i am working on a simplified version where the stem "faces"
show icons for text, images, links, docs, etc

Bottom lime is that proffering ideas that may assist Jeremy's objectives
are supportive and mag resonate with him.



On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 at 10:59 am, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki

Post by John Newell
With the exception of wiki - what purpose for *recall* do the animals
have? If you HAD TO USE AND ANIMAL - perhaps an elephant would portray the
ability to never forget or lose data, ideas etc .

Already taken by a company with $300 million dollar investment that is
very likely to take a dim view of anyone else's elephant.

Post by John Newell
-
-
https://icon2.kisspng.com/20180308/itq/kisspng-3d-computer-graphics-ball-stereoscopy-red-cube-sphere-5aa10bf3622201.336600641520503795402.jpg
https://icon2.kisspng.com/20180308/itq/kisspng-3d-computer-graphics-ball-stereoscopy-red-cube-sphere-5aa10bf3622201.336600641520503795402.jpg]

It should be tilted 20 degrees to better convey the "earth" connotation
and parallel wikipedia. If it's like a Rubik's cube, it should be in
multiple colors. The red color would clash with most of the main TW themes.
-- Mark
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John Newell
about.me/j.newell
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[a***@gmail.com]

Alan Shepard's logo design reminds me of kanji calligraphic art in Japan. I
find it very soothing!

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
https://twitter.com/ABSamma/status/1028771729689255938 asking for a
"Fish" not a "Cat" logo.
Just for info, and comment, if you have one.
@TiddlyTweeter <https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter>

[b***@gmail.com]

I have been abstaining from seriously weighing in on the subject...

You really don't want input from someone who labels their "nuts n bolts"
tiddlers by the following theme:

smoke n mirrors
now you see it...
Hookah Haze (UI)
abracadabra
hoodoo
voodoo
Skunkworks
Klaatu... verata... n-...

that last one is the ToC subheader for failed experiments *g,d&r*

[@TiddlyTweeter]

I just watched this great animation: THE CAT CAME BACK. Shaking off the cat
may not be easy:

... despite fish enthusiasts ...

:-) http://youtu.be/zhrQWz0LXSg

[TonyM]

On this now "completed" discussion. I would like to make a clear statement,
of my opinion.

*History*
We should do our best to maintain our historically established "image" in
the world, but the truth is TiddlyWiki is moving beyond its original,
already extensive, capabilities and as has being noted it's name can appear
trivial to others.
I even recall in the dim pre-tiddlywiki past the game of TiddlyWinks being
used in a derogatory sense as a trivial and non intellectual pass time,
perhaps a time waster for feeble minds. Also the Wiki part of tiddlywiki
underplays its real capabilities.

*Yet*
As has being done many times before I believe we can get the best of both
worlds, buy expanding rather than contracting, qualifying rather than
changing.

My Suggestion is to continuously and actively mention tiddlywiki with the
following "qualification", which points to its grander capabilities and
counteract any perceived limitations.

The TiddlyWiki Platform

- I suggest you look at the "tiddlywiki platform"
- You could host it on the "tiddlywiki platform"
- Your answer may be the "tiddlywiki platform"
- I have seen a solution like that on the "tiddlywiki platform"
- Have you tried the "tiddlywiki platform"
- The tiddlywiki "tiddlywiki platform" can host websites
- The tiddlywiki "tiddlywiki platform" can provide a non-linear personal
web notebook
- You can build applications on the "tiddlywiki platform"
- You can uses the "tiddlywiki platform" to learn about HTML CSS,
JavaScript and more
- The "tiddlywiki platform" is great for creating structured and non
structured Databases
- You can use the "tiddlywiki platform" for interactive documents
- etc....


My 20cents worth

Tony

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
https://twitter.com/ABSamma/status/1028771729689255938 asking for a
"Fish" not a "Cat" logo.
Just for info, and comment, if you have one.
@TiddlyTweeter <https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter>