Discussion:
[tw] An Aside: Learning Curves
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-10-08 14:35:34 UTC
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I never understood "steep learning curves".

Ron: "Shirley that means you learn quickly."

Shirley: "Shallow learning curve seems weak."

Herbert: "It depends on your X Y axis."

Ron: "Well Time (X) & Learning (Y) can't be anything but good as it goes
higher."

Fred: "Its just a confusing cliche that got out of hand."
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Birthe C
2017-10-08 17:19:02 UTC
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Rewards each step of the learning curve make TW users constantly hungry.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I never understood "steep learning curves".
Ron: "Shirley that means you learn quickly."
Shirley: "Shallow learning curve seems weak."
Herbert: "It depends on your X Y axis."
Ron: "Well Time (X) & Learning (Y) can't be anything but good as it goes
higher."
Fred: "Its just a confusing cliche that got out of hand."
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Thomas Elmiger
2017-10-08 17:50:57 UTC
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“Learning stairs” would be a great term! Rewards and new heights after each step.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2017-10-08 18:20:29 UTC
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Imagine climbing a pile of books. The bigger the pile, the steeper the hike
to get on top.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I never understood "steep learning curves".
Ron: "Shirley that means you learn quickly."
Shirley: "Shallow learning curve seems weak."
Herbert: "It depends on your X Y axis."
Ron: "Well Time (X) & Learning (Y) can't be anything but good as it goes
higher."
Fred: "Its just a confusing cliche that got out of hand."
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-10-08 19:08:55 UTC
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B, T & M.

I find it a really interesting trope. Your replies illustrate there is a
visceral resonance in the phrase that gives it traction. Its used a lot.
Yet as a stat "curve" it doesn't really make sense. It kinda got free of
the math though--sort of transferred the upward curve into a kind of
hill--even though that means on the curve "fast success" not "upward slog".

J.

Birthe wrote:
Rewards each step of the learning curve make TW users constantly hungry.
Post by Thomas Elmiger
“Learning stairs” would be a great term! Rewards and new heights after
each step.
Imagine climbing a pile of books. The bigger the pile, the steeper the
hike to get on top.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I never understood "steep learning curves".
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TonyM
2017-10-08 23:42:41 UTC
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I am comfortable with "Learning Curve" and See no confusion.

To me its about the Journey, to Get some where, such as mastery of
TiddlyWiki or a new Job.

The Area under the learning curve represents the amount of information you
need to learn and the slope is determined how quickly you have to learn it.
If you are climbing a steep learning curve it is a lot of work, If there
was less to learn over a longer period it would be a walk in the park not a
climb.

So the two factors are the area under the curve (amount of Information) and
the time available.

Sometimes the time available is impacted by the need of Emerson in the
subject, meaning you can not extend the time to complete too far out or you
will always be having to revise. Some projects like tiddlywiki demand a
minimum learning curve "slope" that is quite steep.

If you don't give up in exhaustion, or by falling/rolling back down the
slope you are progressing. Yes the steeper the slope the more knowledge you
are gaining in a given period of time.

Climbing steep slopes archives a lot, has its pleasures like mountain
climbing, is hard work and sometimes dangerous (could be wasted effort).

A Few steps (*appropriate* learning materials) would make it a lot easier.

Just my View of this metaphor.

Tony
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Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/
2017-10-09 16:30:14 UTC
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Steep learning curve is fine if you know there will eventually be a payoff
worth the steep effort. But most newbies aren't sure it will be worth the
effort. Thus TiddlyWiki owes it to people to ease the learning curve as
much as possible to get from novice to regular / intermediate user if it
wants them to stick around. And it has to find ways to show them what they
will be able to do when they get to that point.

Perhaps better language would be 'reducing friction points', new jargon
that I am seeing in Pocket articles. Tiddlywiki has too many friction
points up front. Hopefully that phrase could further the discussion?
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-10-10 10:09:30 UTC
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Ciao David & others

The discussion was interesting. I think I wasn't quite as explicit in my
bits as I could have been.

The origin of "learning curve" dates back some time in psychology (1920's
and before) when this kind of curve ...


...meant you learnt quite fast at the start but eventually plateau.

Sometime in the 1970's the idea of "steep learning curve" emerged that is
metaphorically the opposite. That the "steepness is effort, not gain". That
is NOT what the original research showed.

I'm interested sociologically and linguistically in the contradiction
between the older (still relevant psychology) and the wider meaning the
"steep" version adopted.

Well, I did say it was an "aside" :-)

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Dave Gifford - Loading Image...fmex.org/
Steep learning curve is fine if you know there will eventually be a payoff
worth the steep effort. But most newbies aren't sure it will be worth the
effort.
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Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/
2017-10-10 11:57:28 UTC
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oh, I was not aware of that.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao David & others
The discussion was interesting. I think I wasn't quite as explicit in my
bits as I could have been.
The origin of "learning curve" dates back some time in psychology (1920's
and before) when this kind of curve ...
...meant you learnt quite fast at the start but eventually plateau.
Sometime in the 1970's the idea of "steep learning curve" emerged that is
metaphorically the opposite. That the "steepness is effort, not gain". That
is NOT what the original research showed.
I'm interested sociologically and linguistically in the contradiction
between the older (still relevant psychology) and the wider meaning the
"steep" version adopted.
Well, I did say it was an "aside" :-)
Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/
Steep learning curve is fine if you know there will eventually be a
payoff worth the steep effort. But most newbies aren't sure it will be
worth the effort.
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TonyM
2017-10-10 12:14:50 UTC
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Interesting,

I am not sure they are opposites.

perhaps It depends on why you are learning. If something has a steep learning curve wether it is quick and easy at the begining it still indicates the need to learn a lot. If I use a steep learning curve to indicate the amount of learning required regardless of its difficulty tge can be the same thing.

perhaps this is how the meaning migrated to its apparent opposite.

regards
tony
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-10-10 12:38:03 UTC
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Ciao TonyM

I agree and disagree.

I agree in the sense that "steep learning curve" has escaped, through
modern usage, its connection with the 1920's psychologists "learning
curves".

I disagree in the sense that the modern usage of the term is any way
compatible with the originating scholastic metaphors. That is WHY its
interesting to me. Tensions like this say a lot about broader cultural
CHANGE IMO.

Enough of this aside already. I'll shut up.

Josiah
Post by TonyM
Interesting,
I am not sure they are opposites.
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2017-10-10 14:04:47 UTC
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The common meaning of stuff happens when people guess at what a phrase
means. Eventually the common meaning becomes the effective meaning.

The one that always bother me is "left hand doesn't know what the right
hand does"

The original context of this saying was about giving. i.e. Give without
paying attention to how much.

But today it's almost always used in the context of dysfunctional
government or organizations.

Mark
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao David & others
The discussion was interesting. I think I wasn't quite as explicit in my
bits as I could have been.
The origin of "learning curve" dates back some time in psychology (1920's
and before) when this kind of curve ...
...meant you learnt quite fast at the start but eventually plateau.
Sometime in the 1970's the idea of "steep learning curve" emerged that is
metaphorically the opposite. That the "steepness is effort, not gain". That
is NOT what the original research showed.
I'm interested sociologically and linguistically in the contradiction
between the older (still relevant psychology) and the wider meaning the
"steep" version adopted.
Well, I did say it was an "aside" :-)
Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/
Steep learning curve is fine if you know there will eventually be a
payoff worth the steep effort. But most newbies aren't sure it will be
worth the effort.
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Lost Admin
2017-10-10 14:10:14 UTC
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I always wondered where that one came from.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
The common meaning of stuff happens when people guess at what a phrase
means. Eventually the common meaning becomes the effective meaning.
The one that always bother me is "left hand doesn't know what the right
hand does"
The original context of this saying was about giving. i.e. Give without
paying attention to how much.
But today it's almost always used in the context of dysfunctional
government or organizations.
Mark
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao David & others
The discussion was interesting. I think I wasn't quite as explicit in my
bits as I could have been.
The origin of "learning curve" dates back some time in psychology (1920's
and before) when this kind of curve ...
...meant you learnt quite fast at the start but eventually plateau.
Sometime in the 1970's the idea of "steep learning curve" emerged that is
metaphorically the opposite. That the "steepness is effort, not gain". That
is NOT what the original research showed.
I'm interested sociologically and linguistically in the contradiction
between the older (still relevant psychology) and the wider meaning the
"steep" version adopted.
Well, I did say it was an "aside" :-)
Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/
Steep learning curve is fine if you know there will eventually be a
payoff worth the steep effort. But most newbies aren't sure it will be
worth the effort.
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Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/
2017-10-10 14:13:30 UTC
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Here is the precise source of the phrase:

Matthew 6.2-4

“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the
hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by
others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But
when you give to the needy, *do not let your left hand know what your right
hand is doing*, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father,
who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
The common meaning of stuff happens when people guess at what a phrase
means. Eventually the common meaning becomes the effective meaning.
The one that always bother me is "left hand doesn't know what the right
hand does"
The original context of this saying was about giving. i.e. Give without
paying attention to how much.
But today it's almost always used in the context of dysfunctional
government or organizations.
Mark
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao David & others
The discussion was interesting. I think I wasn't quite as explicit in my
bits as I could have been.
The origin of "learning curve" dates back some time in psychology (1920's
and before) when this kind of curve ...
...meant you learnt quite fast at the start but eventually plateau.
Sometime in the 1970's the idea of "steep learning curve" emerged that is
metaphorically the opposite. That the "steepness is effort, not gain". That
is NOT what the original research showed.
I'm interested sociologically and linguistically in the contradiction
between the older (still relevant psychology) and the wider meaning the
"steep" version adopted.
Well, I did say it was an "aside" :-)
Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/
Steep learning curve is fine if you know there will eventually be a
payoff worth the steep effort. But most newbies aren't sure it will be
worth the effort.
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