Discussion:
[tw] This is how you can (and could) find plugins
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Mat
2017-04-25 11:21:43 UTC
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In another thread, fellow Josiah asked the folowing. Rather than hijacking
that thread I'm replying here:

....

Mat, could you write a plugin that records plugins?
Regarding my own plugins, I should get my TWaddle site active again, to
list them. (I've started working a little on this.)

Generally, I hope people know about Erwan's TiddlyWiki Community Search
<http://erwanm.github.io/tw-community-search/>. It allows you to search all
tiddlers on TWs that have been "reported" to it and it performs an
automated *daily update* to show which tiddlers (plugins etc) that have
been updated. BUT, again, it can only scan TWs that have been 'reported' to
it or TWs that are listed in a "root wiki",
<http://erwanm.github.io/tw-community-search/#FollowUrlFeature>i.e a TW
that links to other TWs. As evidenced, even if it scans daily (and it
does), the reporting bit is a bottleneck. (For example, I don't have it in
mind when creating my own plugins, which are on separate tiddlyspot
domains, and while TWaddle IS a reported root wiki it is currently passive,
so...)

Also, ironically, the Community Search project suffers from the very
problem it aims to solve: It is not obvious how one should get informed
about its existence.


*...now what we really need* is a system where *ones own wiki* performs
such a scan. And somehow you could get recommendations, via your scans, for
other wikis or plugins or whatever.

Yes, TWederation.

Let me add that we have the pieces for this in place and it works. It is,
however, still not polished and it is currently too slow to be practical.

For those that don't know, here's a quick run thought on how it could be
designed:


*How to find plugins / tiddlers / whole TWs*Similar to how the native
plugin library works, there can be a default feature in standard TW to
"Fetch"... i.e to scans the wikis you "subscribe" to, to get you tiddlers
or other information. You decide to subscribe to, and you decide what
tiddlers to actually fetch from the TWs you subscribe to.

*How do you know what wikis you can subscribe to? How do you find them?*
The main route is via wikis you *already* subscribe to, i.e other peoples
wikis that in turn subscribe to other wikis and so you can peek on their
lists. That is a "quality stamp". Or someone even has a tiddler with
@<yourname> and recommends stuff for you.

But how did anyone find any wikis to begin with? Well, that's easy because
it is only *cruciual* for kicking things off. We could have a listing on
tiddlywiki.com or even in the discussion forum.

*The key here is information that is created out of individuals personal
incentive for quality in their own TWs.* You *care* about which plugins you
have installed. This is "stamp of quality", and I'm curious to see which
those plugins are. Everyone has an *incentive *to curate their plugins or
really all of their tiddlers. This is in stark contrast to rely on single
individuals efforts to keep some external list curated.

And the TWederation plugin itself (again, think of the existing "Plugin
Library") could come with a "recommended-subscriptions-list" and this is
kept up to date by... you guessed it; fetching. (And who curates *that*
list? It's too detailed to go into that here but, trust me, it's not a
problem.)



*One limitation is that you can only subscribe/fetch from TWs that are
online.*True, but many are. Especially if we're talking about TWs where
people present their plugins.


The result is an infrastructure that doesn't rely on a single individual to
keep track of everything but instead aggregates small tidbits that several
people make about several issues.

It is also an infrastructure that would easify development of the
infrastructure itself. You can easily be informed about plugins that
enhance TWederation!



*...that is the concept of TWederation.*

<:-)
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-04-27 16:00:37 UTC
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Ciao Mat

I had noticed Erwan's Community Search.
<http://erwanm.github.io/tw-community-search/> But I never used it much
because (1) its very incomplete, (2) way behind now, (3) has lots of links
that go nowhere (deceased links, old).

What I did NOT know till I read your post was that folk with online stuff
need to do a couple of things to get it to track their work. *in others
words it is tardy simply because so few people are signed onto it*.

My 1st question is basic: DO PEOPLE WHO ARE DEVELOPING STUFF EVEN KNOW THIS
MECHANISM EXISTS?

My 2nd question is: Why are we not doing more to ACTIVELY PROMOTE such
tracking of developments in TW Erwan's thing already makes possible?

My 3rd question is: Why are *you* not using it :-)

I will reply to you other points later.

Best wishes
Josiah
... I hope people know about Erwan's TiddlyWiki Community Search
<http://erwanm.github.io/tw-community-search/>. It allows you to search
all tiddlers on TWs that have been "reported" to it and it performs an
automated *daily update* to show which tiddlers (plugins etc) that have
been updated. BUT, again, it can only scan TWs that have been 'reported' to
it ...
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-04-27 16:13:55 UTC
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Ciao Mat
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
My 3rd question is: Why are *you* not using it :-)
Actually, I see you are, though it ain't listing anything of the last 24
hours, and a lot longer too :-)

Best wishes
Josiah
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Mat
2017-04-27 16:55:38 UTC
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Josiah,


I had noticed Erwan's Community Search.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
<http://erwanm.github.io/tw-community-search/> But I never used it much
because (1) its very incomplete, (2) way behind now, (3) has lots of links
that go nowhere (deceased links, old).
What I did NOT know till I read your post was that folk with online stuff
need to do a couple of things to get it to track their work. *In other
words it is tardy simply because so few people are signed onto it*.
My 1st question is basic: DO PEOPLE WHO ARE DEVELOPING STUFF EVEN KNOW
THIS MECHANISM EXISTS?
That is why the Community Search is not enough per se. It aims to help
people find stuff but if people don't even find the Community Search... no
cigar. This is why I keep coming back to TWederation. That is a system that
builds on personal incentives and social interaction. It is a LOT easier to
add notes if I do it for my own sake than it is to actively share them. For
example, just the fact that you have plugins X, Y and Z installed are of
potential value, if others knew. You have those plugins because of personal
incentives. If you also happen to, say, blog for others to read, I think
this is also more likely if you do it in your own TW than e.g here on the
boards where you are not in control of your text.

You ask "Do developers know about the Community Search?". Not unless
anybody told them. And there is not enough personal incentive to do so, or
even to keep the Community Search in mind. (for example, you knew about it
but still don't talk about it... not out of evilness but I'm guessing
your're of course not thinking of it much.) Besides, few people have as
much time as you and I to write on boards like this. Definitely a luxury.

Other than the boards, I'd say people only "read" tiddlywiki.com. But the
Community Search is presented on tiddlywiki.com just like any other
community site/plugin/whatever. It is not "promoted" or referred to in any
other tiddler that I know of. So, my guess is newcomers simply don't get to
know about it. Jeremy is the gatekeeper to tiddlywiki .com and he is doing
a fantastic job, but he is only one man and IMO simply adding a tiddler for
each reported site is not enough. There is no categorization or context to
find the info in. And the links are not updated. Besides, his super skills
are better used on advanced stuff.

...so again, TWedreation, driven by "the masses" is my best shot for an
answer to this information-spreading problem.


My 2nd question is: Why are we not doing more to ACTIVELY PROMOTE such
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
tracking of developments in TW Erwan's thing already makes possible?
I try to bring it up on the discussion forum every now and then (like now).
But, there is also some mental resistance to do this because the Community
Search is not designed the way I would personally have preferred it. The
biggest problem is that is appears outdated and the HUGE thing that it
actually updates EVERY day is too subtle.

But, yeah, you knew about it. You're one of the more active fellas here.
And still you're not actively promoting it. Why?


My 3rd question is: Why are *you* not using it :-)
As noted, I typically create a new site (a tiddlyspot) for each new
creation. And one has to report every site to the Community Search OR
report one "main site" into which one writes the other urls. I do have my
"blog" TWaddle reported... but TWaddle became passive a year or two ago
(because there was no good mechanism to save only public/ready posts. I
recently solved this and I'm fiddling aournd with a revamp for TWaddle.) so
reporting each new thingy I make is... ufff...

TWederation is also the only thing I can think of where each person himself
decides how the data is to be presented, since it is in their own TWs. "I
want to prioritize all fetched posts from Josiah", "I want to delete all
posts not starred", etc. "I want an alert every time I fetch tiddlers
containing the word plugin". Can't do that here or on tiddlywiki.com.


<:-)
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-05-03 12:38:01 UTC
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Ciao Mat

There is *much *in your reply. You articulated ONE thing spectacularly well
...

but the general problem is of course how people should find (and find out
Post by Mat
about) everything concerning TW.
I agree the issue is not plugins per se. Finding them is merely *an
instance* of that broader issue.

IF I can get my brain to coordinate the needed clarity on this I will start
another post from the NEEDED starting point.

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by Mat
Josiah,
I had noticed Erwan's Community Search.
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
<http://erwanm.github.io/tw-community-search/> But I never used it much
because (1) its very incomplete, (2) way behind now, (3) has lots of links
that go nowhere (deceased links, old).
What I did NOT know till I read your post was that folk with online stuff
need to do a couple of things to get it to track their work. *In other
words it is tardy simply because so few people are signed onto it*.
My 1st question is basic: DO PEOPLE WHO ARE DEVELOPING STUFF EVEN KNOW
THIS MECHANISM EXISTS?
That is why the Community Search is not enough per se. It aims to help
people find stuff but if people don't even find the Community Search... no
cigar. This is why I keep coming back to TWederation. That is a system that
builds on personal incentives and social interaction. It is a LOT easier to
add notes if I do it for my own sake than it is to actively share them. For
example, just the fact that you have plugins X, Y and Z installed are of
potential value, if others knew. You have those plugins because of personal
incentives. If you also happen to, say, blog for others to read, I think
this is also more likely if you do it in your own TW than e.g here on the
boards where you are not in control of your text.
You ask "Do developers know about the Community Search?". Not unless
anybody told them. And there is not enough personal incentive to do so, or
even to keep the Community Search in mind. (for example, you knew about it
but still don't talk about it... not out of evilness but I'm guessing
your're of course not thinking of it much.) Besides, few people have as
much time as you and I to write on boards like this. Definitely a luxury.
Other than the boards, I'd say people only "read" tiddlywiki.com. But the
Community Search is presented on tiddlywiki.com just like any other
community site/plugin/whatever. It is not "promoted" or referred to in any
other tiddler that I know of. So, my guess is newcomers simply don't get to
know about it. Jeremy is the gatekeeper to tiddlywiki .com and he is doing
a fantastic job, but he is only one man and IMO simply adding a tiddler for
each reported site is not enough. There is no categorization or context to
find the info in. And the links are not updated. Besides, his super skills
are better used on advanced stuff.
...so again, TWedreation, driven by "the masses" is my best shot for an
answer to this information-spreading problem.
My 2nd question is: Why are we not doing more to ACTIVELY PROMOTE such
Post by @TiddlyTweeter
tracking of developments in TW Erwan's thing already makes possible?
I try to bring it up on the discussion forum every now and then (like
now). But, there is also some mental resistance to do this because the
Community Search is not designed the way I would personally have preferred
it. The biggest problem is that is appears outdated and the HUGE thing that
it actually updates EVERY day is too subtle.
But, yeah, you knew about it. You're one of the more active fellas here.
And still you're not actively promoting it. Why?
My 3rd question is: Why are *you* not using it :-)
As noted, I typically create a new site (a tiddlyspot) for each new
creation. And one has to report every site to the Community Search OR
report one "main site" into which one writes the other urls. I do have my
"blog" TWaddle reported... but TWaddle became passive a year or two ago
(because there was no good mechanism to save only public/ready posts. I
recently solved this and I'm fiddling aournd with a revamp for TWaddle.) so
reporting each new thingy I make is... ufff...
TWederation is also the only thing I can think of where each person
himself decides how the data is to be presented, since it is in their own
TWs. "I want to prioritize all fetched posts from Josiah", "I want to
delete all posts not starred", etc. "I want an alert every time I fetch
tiddlers containing the word plugin". Can't do that here or on
tiddlywiki.com.
<:-)
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Birthe C
2017-05-05 23:29:02 UTC
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Hi Mat,

How would you use twederation for this? I realise it would be a new version
of twederation.
No matter what, we need to get twederated. When we get there, we will see
lots of new ideas and possibilities.

Birthe
Post by Mat
This is why I keep coming back to TWederation. That is a system that
builds on personal incentives and social interaction. It is a LOT easier to
add notes if I do it for my own sake than it is to actively share them. For
example, just the fact that you have plugins X, Y and Z installed are of
potential value, if others knew. You have those plugins because of personal
incentives. If you also happen to, say, blog for others to read, I think
this is also more likely if you do it in your own TW than e.g here on the
boards where you are not in control of your text.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-05-05 23:47:42 UTC
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We need aggregation.

Nice if Twederation could do it. But its not here. I'm not sure if its
anywhere close yet. Lets not put off till tomorrow too much.

I am UNCLEAR what could solve this *pressing issue* in the near needed
future.

Josiah
Post by Birthe C
Hi Mat,
How would you use twederation for this? I realise it would be a new
version of twederation.
No matter what, we need to get twederated. When we get there, we will see
lots of new ideas and possibilities.
Birthe
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Mat
2017-05-06 13:39:10 UTC
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Hi Birthe,

How would you use twederation for this? I realise it would be a new version
Post by Birthe C
of twederation.
Actually, not much different from the TWederation you've tried. (Hopefully
faster fetching tho ;-) But which aspects are you asking about in
particular that are not elaborated on, albeit briefly, in my post here
above? They key is simply that one is able to batch-wise get filtered sets
of tiddlers from other wikis - and once they're in your own wiki, you can
do what you want with them.

Further, given this functionality, it would be fairly simple to set up
public topic-specialized wikis that fetch and list all, say, plugins
(perhaps only meta-data, like links to the plugins rather than the actual
plugins), or a documentation specialized with (in this case possibly
including the content), or all tiddlers concerning football or
what-have-you.

<:-)
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Birthe C
2017-05-06 17:27:39 UTC
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Hi Mat,

I wonder how it will cope with many users. I think it would be best for
public topic-specialized wikis to fetch links to plugins, as you suggest.
I recall the problems we had with TWclassic. Lots of modified versions of
the same plugins around. The good part is that most users will get to know
TWederation. I think many people are collecting links, writing tips and
tricks for themselves to remember and reuse later on. It is done in native
language, and the way we ourselves understand it. The quality will vary of
course, but it can be shared. Beginners and simple users like myself are
the ones needing it the most, and everybody would be able to find stuff and
start creating stuff for sharing. We decide ourselves what we want to
share, and what we want to fetch, but some kind of evaluation system would
be good.
Any thoughts on structure? The TWederation we tried used twCards for
identification. Nobody would like to fetch everything from everyone. Would
we need lots of different twCards? I realise filters can be used, but it
needs to be easy enough for a beginner from the start. It really has to be
easy to start finding the topic-specialized wikis, From there it will
spread like rings in water.
Sorry to be dense but I do not understand everything in English.

Birthe
Post by Mat
Hi Birthe,
How would you use twederation for this? I realise it would be a new
Post by Birthe C
version of twederation.
Actually, not much different from the TWederation you've tried. (Hopefully
faster fetching tho ;-) But which aspects are you asking about in
particular that are not elaborated on, albeit briefly, in my post here
above? They key is simply that one is able to batch-wise get filtered sets
of tiddlers from other wikis - and once they're in your own wiki, you can
do what you want with them.
Further, given this functionality, it would be fairly simple to set up
public topic-specialized wikis that fetch and list all, say, plugins
(perhaps only meta-data, like links to the plugins rather than the actual
plugins), or a documentation specialized with (in this case possibly
including the content), or all tiddlers concerning football or
what-have-you.
<:-)
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Mat
2017-05-07 07:42:43 UTC
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Hi again Birthe,
Post by Birthe C
I wonder how it will cope with many users. I think it would be best for
public topic-specialized wikis to fetch links to plugins, as you suggest.
I recall the problems we had with TWclassic. Lots of modified versions of
the same plugins around. The good part is that most users will get to know
TWederation. I think many people are collecting links, writing tips and
tricks for themselves to remember and reuse later on. It is done in native
language, and the way we ourselves understand it. The quality will vary of
course, but it can be shared. Beginners and simple users like myself are
the ones needing it the most, and everybody would be able to find stuff and
start creating stuff for sharing. We decide ourselves what we want to
share, and what we want to fetch, but some kind of evaluation system would
be good.
Yes, we'll need a way to keep track of versions. If I recall, this is
already in place with a kind of UUID both in Jeds and Jeremys variants. But
I think that you'll only fetch from a few sources which will work as some
kind of quality system. Also, if I recall my conversations with Jed, we
talked about trackability and how to make the original source also be part
of the meta-info in a tiddler. It's something we'd have to experiment with.
Post by Birthe C
Any thoughts on structure? The TWederation we tried used twCards for
identification. Nobody would like to fetch everything from everyone. Would
we need lots of different twCards? I realise filters can be used, but it
needs to be easy enough for a beginner from the start. It really has to be
easy to start finding the topic-specialized wikis, From there it will
spread like rings in water.
First, much of what I say about TWederation is just my vision of things. Of
course, much of it already is possible even with the current TWederation
version, but would still have to be built, like a "plugin list". This also
means that how things will/can work is up to the individual federated
networks and their participants. The transferring fetch-mechanism is one
thing but what people build based from it is another, just like TW at large.

We would need some way of identifying sources so, yes, twCards make sense.
As for finding the topic specialized wikis, there are a few imaginable
variants. The simplest is probably that a few are already build in, just
like the plugin library in vanilla TW has the source build in.
Post by Birthe C
Sorry to be dense but I do not understand everything in English.
Heh! It sure seems like you understand everything.

<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2017-04-27 18:05:59 UTC
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Instead of another unrecognized 3rd-party system, why not have a page that
lists and describes Plugins at TiddlyWiki.com? Similar to the community
listings except consolidated in one page. The individual description
tiddlers could follow a standard format so people could copy and submit
(possibly right to this forum) new plugins.

Mark
Post by Mat
In another thread, fellow Josiah asked the folowing. Rather than hijacking
....
Mat, could you write a plugin that records plugins?
Regarding my own plugins, I should get my TWaddle site active again, to
list them. (I've started working a little on this.)
Generally, I hope people know about Erwan's TiddlyWiki Community Search
<http://erwanm.github.io/tw-community-search/>. It allows you to search
all tiddlers on TWs that have been "reported" to it and it performs an
automated *daily update* to show which tiddlers (plugins etc) that have
been updated. BUT, again, it can only scan TWs that have been 'reported' to
it or TWs that are listed in a "root wiki",
<http://erwanm.github.io/tw-community-search/#FollowUrlFeature>i.e a TW
that links to other TWs. As evidenced, even if it scans daily (and it
does), the reporting bit is a bottleneck. (For example, I don't have it in
mind when creating my own plugins, which are on separate tiddlyspot
domains, and while TWaddle IS a reported root wiki it is currently passive,
so...)
Also, ironically, the Community Search project suffers from the very
problem it aims to solve: It is not obvious how one should get informed
about its existence.
*...now what we really need* is a system where *ones own wiki* performs
such a scan. And somehow you could get recommendations, via your scans, for
other wikis or plugins or whatever.
Yes, TWederation.
Let me add that we have the pieces for this in place and it works. It is,
however, still not polished and it is currently too slow to be practical.
For those that don't know, here's a quick run thought on how it could be
*How to find plugins / tiddlers / whole TWs*Similar to how the native
plugin library works, there can be a default feature in standard TW to
"Fetch"... i.e to scans the wikis you "subscribe" to, to get you tiddlers
or other information. You decide to subscribe to, and you decide what
tiddlers to actually fetch from the TWs you subscribe to.
*How do you know what wikis you can subscribe to? How do you find them?*
The main route is via wikis you *already* subscribe to, i.e other peoples
wikis that in turn subscribe to other wikis and so you can peek on their
lists. That is a "quality stamp". Or someone even has a tiddler with
@<yourname> and recommends stuff for you.
But how did anyone find any wikis to begin with? Well, that's easy because
it is only *cruciual* for kicking things off. We could have a listing on
tiddlywiki.com or even in the discussion forum.
*The key here is information that is created out of individuals personal
incentive for quality in their own TWs.* You *care* about which plugins
you have installed. This is "stamp of quality", and I'm curious to see
which those plugins are. Everyone has an *incentive *to curate their
plugins or really all of their tiddlers. This is in stark contrast to rely
on single individuals efforts to keep some external list curated.
And the TWederation plugin itself (again, think of the existing "Plugin
Library") could come with a "recommended-subscriptions-list" and this is
kept up to date by... you guessed it; fetching. (And who curates *that*
list? It's too detailed to go into that here but, trust me, it's not a
problem.)
*One limitation is that you can only subscribe/fetch from TWs that are
online.*True, but many are. Especially if we're talking about TWs where
people present their plugins.
The result is an infrastructure that doesn't rely on a single individual
to keep track of everything but instead aggregates small tidbits that
several people make about several issues.
It is also an infrastructure that would easify development of the
infrastructure itself. You can easily be informed about plugins that
enhance TWederation!
*...that is the concept of TWederation.*
<:-)
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Mat
2017-04-27 19:34:29 UTC
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Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Instead of another unrecognized 3rd-party system, why not have a page that
lists and describes Plugins at TiddlyWiki.com? Similar to the community
listings except consolidated in one page. The individual description
tiddlers could follow a standard format so people could copy and submit
(possibly right to this forum) new plugins.
I'm a bit unsure of the term "unrecognized 3rd-party system" but if it is
TWederation you refer to, it could probably be a native feature in TW if
good enough. (Jeremy made a prototype for it, different from Jeds, during
last years TW European Meeting so I think he is positive to it.) Its "core
features" is/could be not all different from the plugin library were you
download what you want. Kind of.

But a "page with a list" still has the same problem as the many earlier
efforts: Even if people report plugins, who would *maintain* that list?
Update it. Clean out non working ones. Possibly for years. This is one of
the things that makes Jeremys efforts so incredible; it's not that the
lists on tiddlywiki.com are superb (because they're not! Much because of us
not reporting plugins) but that all other attempts by community members to
make plugin repositories, recommended lists, etc have simply withered.

Plus, a plugin list is a one-trick-pony. Admittedly, this thread is about
"how to find plugins" but the general problem is of course how people
should find (and find out about) everything concerning TW.

But, hey, these are just my pessimistic interpretations. Anyone is welcome
to set up any solution. I definitely hope it would solve the problems!

<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2017-05-04 15:13:36 UTC
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I mean that there is too many resources scattered in too many places.
Having a list right at TiddlyWiki.com would mean that people didn't have to
go to a forum to find out that they can go to a site and so forth.

With a simple list, people could submit their plugins either to the forum
directly to git-hub. There would be a standard format for the tiddlers so
they would automatically get listed correctly. Any person could submit.
Since it's part of TW, it wouldn't get orphaned.

Alternatively, there already is a plugin download tool in TW for officially
recognized plugins. Why not have a second settings tab that lists all known
plugins for download with the caveat that they have not been tested. This
is the approach taken by Firefox and most browsers and many applications
(like Calibre). You can look for plugins right inside the app. You don't
have to find a site or forum, or wade through posts, or ask for help --
it's all right there available straight from the app.

Thanks,
Mark
Post by Mat
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Instead of another unrecognized 3rd-party system, why not have a page
that lists and describes Plugins at TiddlyWiki.com? Similar to the
community listings except consolidated in one page. The individual
description tiddlers could follow a standard format so people could copy
and submit (possibly right to this forum) new plugins.
I'm a bit unsure of the term "unrecognized 3rd-party system" but if it is
TWederation you refer to, it could probably be a native feature in TW if
good enough. (Jeremy made a prototype for it, different from Jeds, during
last years TW European Meeting so I think he is positive to it.) Its "core
features" is/could be not all different from the plugin library were you
download what you want. Kind of.
But a "page with a list" still has the same problem as the many earlier
efforts: Even if people report plugins, who would *maintain* that list?
Update it. Clean out non working ones. Possibly for years. This is one of
the things that makes Jeremys efforts so incredible; it's not that the
lists on tiddlywiki.com are superb (because they're not! Much because of
us not reporting plugins) but that all other attempts by community members
to make plugin repositories, recommended lists, etc have simply withered.
Plus, a plugin list is a one-trick-pony. Admittedly, this thread is about
"how to find plugins" but the general problem is of course how people
should find (and find out about) everything concerning TW.
But, hey, these are just my pessimistic interpretations. Anyone is welcome
to set up any solution. I definitely hope it would solve the problems!
<:-)
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Danielo Rodríguez
2017-05-04 13:46:35 UTC
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Hello,

Sorry but I disagree with all of you.

Please take a look at https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/2817
to se my motivations.

I think the best place to put tiddlywiki plugins is npm. Just think about
it, how do you install tiddlywiki on node? from npm, them, where will
probably be your next stop to look for plugins? Probably npm too. Also it
will have a positive impact if you just search for tiddlywiki on npm and
see the package and a large list of plugins available, that are just one
`npm install pluginname` away. So this will also give greater visibility to
the project

Lots of projects use this approach: yeoman generators, react plugins,
angular directives, babel plugins, gulp plugins, webpack plugins... it is
even used for non Javascript code: typescript definitions, cordova plugins
I'm not sure why, but on tiddlywiki community there is a is a trend towards
re-inventing the wheel, creating everything from the ground up. I don't see
the problem on using battle tested industry wide accepted solutions. And
having tiddlywiki plugins on a fantastic highly scalable delivery mechanism
like npm is something good.


Obviously this is not for the users that access tiddlywiki from
tiddlywiki.com, but for all people that uses the node-js version this will
be the desired way.
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Mat
2017-05-04 15:16:58 UTC
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Post by Danielo Rodríguez
I think the best place to put tiddlywiki plugins is npm.
[...]
Obviously this is not for the users that access tiddlywiki from
Post by Danielo Rodríguez
tiddlywiki.com, but for all people that uses the node-js version this
will be the desired way.
That thing is one definite restriction. So it would be not be a solution
for vanilla TW. ...Or could it be made into one?

But, more, questions arise in my head:

Who has / what is the incentive to add plugins there?
Who has / what is the incentive to maintain it, e.g remove dead stuff
Is there a front UI to it, ideally in TW, that is made for mortals who
simply want a frickin' wiki for their food recipes without having anything
to do with "noje.js, npm, github, command windows, ..."


I'm not sure why, but on tiddlywiki community there is a is a trend towards
Post by Danielo Rodríguez
re-inventing the wheel, creating everything from the ground up. I don't see
the problem on using battle tested industry wide accepted solutions. And
having tiddlywiki plugins on a fantastic highly scalable delivery mechanism
like npm is something good.
As hinted, I think it is much a matter of UI and target audience. At lest
in this forum, it seems to me that most people are not coders. And IMO they
shouldn't have to be, to use TW. I must assume that is the point with
WikiText. So things are re-invented but from a TW perspective and probably
from ignorance of what already exists.

<:-)
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'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
2017-05-04 15:17:21 UTC
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Not everyone uses npm, and I suspect most people at least start out using
TW from TiddlyWiki.com. That's why it makes sense to have everything
available from TiddlyWiki.com.

Unless ... you're suggesting that TW become a full-time npm program,
dropping the single-file, platform-independent format that made it so
compelling in the first place.

Thanks,
Mark
Post by Danielo Rodríguez
Hello,
Sorry but I disagree with all of you.
Please take a look at https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/2817
to se my motivations.
I think the best place to put tiddlywiki plugins is npm. Just think about
it, how do you install tiddlywiki on node? from npm, them, where will
probably be your next stop to look for plugins? Probably npm too. Also it
will have a positive impact if you just search for tiddlywiki on npm and
see the package and a large list of plugins available, that are just one
`npm install pluginname` away. So this will also give greater visibility to
the project
Lots of projects use this approach: yeoman generators, react plugins,
angular directives, babel plugins, gulp plugins, webpack plugins... it is
even used for non Javascript code: typescript definitions, cordova plugins
I'm not sure why, but on tiddlywiki community there is a is a trend
towards re-inventing the wheel, creating everything from the ground up. I
don't see the problem on using battle tested industry wide accepted
solutions. And having tiddlywiki plugins on a fantastic highly scalable
delivery mechanism like npm is something good.
Obviously this is not for the users that access tiddlywiki from
tiddlywiki.com, but for all people that uses the node-js version this
will be the desired way.
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Reaktor Blue
2017-05-04 16:07:18 UTC
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Out of curiosity, wasn't the entire "selling point" if you will with TW was
that it was one file and portable? Setting this up on node is neat and a
great learning experience but the more it seems TW goes in the direction of
being hosted via node, the more sense it seems to replace it with an actual
mean stack application or something.

Perhaps I'm missing something altogether.
Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Not everyone uses npm, and I suspect most people at least start out using
TW from TiddlyWiki.com. That's why it makes sense to have everything
available from TiddlyWiki.com.
Unless ... you're suggesting that TW become a full-time npm program,
dropping the single-file, platform-independent format that made it so
compelling in the first place.
Thanks,
Mark
Post by Danielo Rodríguez
Hello,
Sorry but I disagree with all of you.
Please take a look at
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/2817 to se my
motivations.
I think the best place to put tiddlywiki plugins is npm. Just think about
it, how do you install tiddlywiki on node? from npm, them, where will
probably be your next stop to look for plugins? Probably npm too. Also it
will have a positive impact if you just search for tiddlywiki on npm and
see the package and a large list of plugins available, that are just one
`npm install pluginname` away. So this will also give greater visibility to
the project
Lots of projects use this approach: yeoman generators, react plugins,
angular directives, babel plugins, gulp plugins, webpack plugins... it is
even used for non Javascript code: typescript definitions, cordova plugins
I'm not sure why, but on tiddlywiki community there is a is a trend
towards re-inventing the wheel, creating everything from the ground up. I
don't see the problem on using battle tested industry wide accepted
solutions. And having tiddlywiki plugins on a fantastic highly scalable
delivery mechanism like npm is something good.
Obviously this is not for the users that access tiddlywiki from
tiddlywiki.com, but for all people that uses the node-js version this
will be the desired way.
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A M Alfaro
2017-05-04 16:13:05 UTC
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I like the idea of integrating a plugin discovery/search in the single file
TW because that will always be my preferred platform. In the meantime,
though, why not just add something to the group descriptions, especially in
the TiddlyWikiDocs group, that says, "Hey! General Tiddlywiki documentation
can be found Here, Here, and of course in Tiddlywiki itself, here! To start
looking for Tiddlywiki plugins try Here."

I think most non-technical users are far more likely to go to Google and
search key phrases like "Tiddlywiki documentation' and "Tiddlywiki
plugins", so if the Tiddlywiki groups have those key phrases and signposts
in their greeting/descriptions, it'll be very helpful right now.

Just my thoughts,
ama
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c***@outlook.com
2017-05-04 17:20:32 UTC
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It should be a sticky post/thread at the top of this group. I'm imagining a
*single* maintained posting, if that can be arranged (otherwise, it'll
become too lengthy/tedious to browse/use).
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Ste Wilson
2017-05-05 21:49:29 UTC
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There is a fairly comprehensive list on the Reddit group but I'm not sure if anyone stepped up to moderate it after riz said he was stepping down.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-05-05 23:40:55 UTC
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What Riz did was awesome. Such is pace its already out of date. We need a
SYSTEM that keeps up.

Josiah
Post by Ste Wilson
There is a fairly comprehensive list on the Reddit group but I'm not sure
if anyone stepped up to moderate it after riz said he was stepping down.
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Jed Carty
2017-05-07 08:31:19 UTC
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For twederation the plan moving forward is to make a lightweight
distributed server architecture that works like a wiki but has a real
database that can act like a wiki. That may be able to help with the
scaling problems. The servers would be federated themselves and it
shouldn't change the way that twederation works now, it would just be
another method for connecting the wikis.

This is still in the theory stages, but there are models of this sort of
federation that we can use as models.
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-05-08 12:25:09 UTC
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Ciao Mat, Jed & tutti

Basically here we are talking about aggregation of one form or another to
aid knowing what is available

I very much grasp that Twederation (TWED) may well be RIGHT bees knees
longer term to do that.

One thing I was thinking about was a universal system of fields or tags
that would enable an aggregator to harvest stuff already to some kind of
standard. Fully compatible with TWED (even as is). So that other approaches
could also work.

There are many issues to sort. I want to make a few points now ...

1 - If TWED were the way to go there will STILL, I think, be need for lists
of resources outwith it. TWED will function within TW. BUT there is also a
need for resources lists outside TW. *Mark S. Has made good points about
that. *You can't expect beginners to begin unless they know what is
available. And its a pain-in-the-ass having to figure stuff out as it is,
even for The Constant Reader. Perhaps TWED can be used to generate the
needed lists? BUT what should be done before its really working as a matter
of course?

2 - Erwin's existing solution to registered stuff is nice. Though falls way
behind because few, including people who understand it, register for it.
Perché?

3 - I think a LOT of our issues are because Google Groups are so crap. Its
fine for immediate interaction. Its terrible for searching and finding past
posts (posts that carry the links & works we are talking about). In short,
I feel we are positing a savior system when the basic day-to-day system we
use is inadequate to the job (job=EASY HISTORY lookup). THAT is making
everything more complex.

4 - The whole discussion is bringing up underlying core themes in
TiddlyWiki. Some of it is, IMO, an individualism too far. Fragmentation of
information is pretty extreme as things currently stand.

Best wishes
Josiah
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Danielo Rodríguez
2017-05-08 16:58:59 UTC
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I think that the best place that everyone agree is the plugin tab of the
control panel. Having some kind of beta tab/channel community driven.
However, until mr. Ruston allows us such thing we are alone here.

From my side, I will start including all the plugin libraries that gave me
their authorization into the official distribution of NoteSelf.
Regards
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Jeremy Ruston
2017-05-08 18:12:23 UTC
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Hi Danielo
I think that the best place that everyone agree is the plugin tab of the control panel. Having some kind of beta tab/channel community driven.
However, until mr. Ruston allows us such thing we are alone here.
Really? What is it that I am not allowing? Can you point to a statement from me that backs up your assertion?

Best wishes

Jeremy
From my side, I will start including all the plugin libraries that gave me their authorization into the official distribution of NoteSelf.
Regards
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Danielo Rodríguez
2017-05-16 15:51:04 UTC
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Hello Jeremy
Post by Jeremy Ruston
Really? What is it that I am not allowing? Can you point to a statement
from me that backs up your assertion
Sorry if I looked impolite. I can't find any particular source to make a
quote, but I asked a couple of times how to make a plugin fit into the
official plugin library and the answer was something like: "That's Jeremy's
decision"
Which, to be honest, is a true statement.

Please note that my sentence:

until mr. Ruston allows us such thing we are alone here.


means that you are the owner of tiddlywiki.com and tiddlywiki's repo,
therefore a decision like including a beta channel on the plugin library
should be supported and approved by you. Again, sorry if this is not true,
but I have the impression that you don't want to include such feature. Am I
wrong ? If so I would love to contribute to such thing.

Regards
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HC Haase
2017-05-09 07:23:14 UTC
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I agree with Danielo Rodríguez and Mark S. that some tab or extra plugin
library in the regular plugin modal, is the best way to make a plugin
findable (for now).
A couple of people have made there own plugin libraries (e.g. Tobias).

Could this be a solution:

1. Have a TW on github where people can add tiddler files (.tid) like the
way you can add to documentation for tiddlywiki.com at the moment.
2. Have that wiki publish a plugin library (if that is possible at the
moment) that is included in TW (e.g. community plugin library).
3. Have plugin developers upload there plugins there by adding the .tid
file (and using the tinka plugion builder or something similar to get the
plugins in the same structure).

This would give

1. one place in the wiki to find community plugins.
2. maintenance and publication of plugins would be on the individual plugin
author, so less of a bottleneck/ work for admins.

if plugins was made using the tinka plugin things like version number and
TW-verision comparability, would make this library more easy to manurer for
the user/plugin-consumer.


would this be a solution technically? and one we would use/want?
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@TiddlyTweeter
2017-05-11 10:45:42 UTC
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*We are talking about an aggregated repository for info & links on plugins
& stuff, right?*

Maybe my brain is too small but isn't the issue, at this level, simply, to *encourage
folk to use Erwan's automated mechanism that already exists*!

result: http://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/#Latest

signing-up: Set up for Community News
<http://erwanm.github.io/tw-community-search/#What%20is%20this%3F:%5B%5BWhat%20is%20this%3F%5D%5D%20AuthorDocumentation%20PublishingInCommunityNews>

Its seems it would, at least in the interim, go a long way to addressing
the issues NOW in a way that is good enough until TWederation, or some
other solution, is universally in place.

Best wishes
Josiah
Post by HC Haase
I agree with Danielo Rodríguez and Mark S. that some tab or extra plugin
library in the regular plugin modal, is the best way to make a plugin
findable (for now).
<snip>
Post by HC Haase
1. one place in the wiki to find community plugins.
2. maintenance and publication of plugins would be on the individual
plugin author, so less of a bottleneck/ work for admins.
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Christopher Arcadia
2017-06-08 03:35:46 UTC
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After several years of using TiddlyWiki (without many plugins), I just
found Tobias' huge plugin stash on GitHub
<https://github.com/tobibeer/TiddlyWikiPlugins/tree/master/plugins> and
cannot help but think there are many other 3rd party plugins that I would
love to check out!

I think the most accessible approach to helping TiddlyWiki users explore
its capabilities through plugins would be to have the plugin search bar (in
the control panel of each wiki) also search a repository for approved 3rd
party plugins.
Post by Mat
In another thread, fellow Josiah asked the folowing. Rather than hijacking
....
Mat, could you write a plugin that records plugins?
Regarding my own plugins, I should get my TWaddle site active again, to
list them. (I've started working a little on this.)
Generally, I hope people know about Erwan's TiddlyWiki Community Search
<http://erwanm.github.io/tw-community-search/>. It allows you to search
all tiddlers on TWs that have been "reported" to it and it performs an
automated *daily update* to show which tiddlers (plugins etc) that have
been updated. BUT, again, it can only scan TWs that have been 'reported' to
it or TWs that are listed in a "root wiki",
<http://erwanm.github.io/tw-community-search/#FollowUrlFeature>i.e a TW
that links to other TWs. As evidenced, even if it scans daily (and it
does), the reporting bit is a bottleneck. (For example, I don't have it in
mind when creating my own plugins, which are on separate tiddlyspot
domains, and while TWaddle IS a reported root wiki it is currently passive,
so...)
Also, ironically, the Community Search project suffers from the very
problem it aims to solve: It is not obvious how one should get informed
about its existence.
*...now what we really need* is a system where *ones own wiki* performs
such a scan. And somehow you could get recommendations, via your scans, for
other wikis or plugins or whatever.
Yes, TWederation.
Let me add that we have the pieces for this in place and it works. It is,
however, still not polished and it is currently too slow to be practical.
For those that don't know, here's a quick run thought on how it could be
*How to find plugins / tiddlers / whole TWs*Similar to how the native
plugin library works, there can be a default feature in standard TW to
"Fetch"... i.e to scans the wikis you "subscribe" to, to get you tiddlers
or other information. You decide to subscribe to, and you decide what
tiddlers to actually fetch from the TWs you subscribe to.
*How do you know what wikis you can subscribe to? How do you find them?*
The main route is via wikis you *already* subscribe to, i.e other peoples
wikis that in turn subscribe to other wikis and so you can peek on their
lists. That is a "quality stamp". Or someone even has a tiddler with
@<yourname> and recommends stuff for you.
But how did anyone find any wikis to begin with? Well, that's easy because
it is only *cruciual* for kicking things off. We could have a listing on
tiddlywiki.com or even in the discussion forum.
*The key here is information that is created out of individuals personal
incentive for quality in their own TWs.* You *care* about which plugins
you have installed. This is "stamp of quality", and I'm curious to see
which those plugins are. Everyone has an *incentive *to curate their
plugins or really all of their tiddlers. This is in stark contrast to rely
on single individuals efforts to keep some external list curated.
And the TWederation plugin itself (again, think of the existing "Plugin
Library") could come with a "recommended-subscriptions-list" and this is
kept up to date by... you guessed it; fetching. (And who curates *that*
list? It's too detailed to go into that here but, trust me, it's not a
problem.)
*One limitation is that you can only subscribe/fetch from TWs that are
online.*True, but many are. Especially if we're talking about TWs where
people present their plugins.
The result is an infrastructure that doesn't rely on a single individual
to keep track of everything but instead aggregates small tidbits that
several people make about several issues.
It is also an infrastructure that would easify development of the
infrastructure itself. You can easily be informed about plugins that
enhance TWederation!
*...that is the concept of TWederation.*
<:-)
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